A little lesson on "until"

[Interplanner]

Lk 21 and Rom 11 are favs of futurism and D'ism because of the expression "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." It means, to them, that plan "B" the church is awkwardly interjected into history out of nowhere for a little while, and the Big Dance of Israel in its land resumes right after.

It is all due to a misunderstanding of "until" and to using the OT in a way that is foreign to the NT.

On the term "until" we need only realize that "until"--often meaning for the duration--is not a guarantee of anything after it. One of the most useful illustrations of this is Ps 110. "Sit at my right hand / until I make your enemies / a footstool for your feet."

If "until" was a guarantee of a reversal at its termination, Christ would be made to get back up again and be busy doing God's work in the universe after his enemies were finally vanquished. So much for the visit to this planet in the harshest of conditions and the most hideous of human death for us. But this is not the picture of heaven that we get from the Rev (whether we believe it to be future or not does not matter). Christ is the Lamb seated on the throne, 7:15, 5:13 and Heb 1:9 (Ps 45), Acts 2, one with the Father.

 

[Biblewriter]

Lk 21 and Rom 11 are favs of futurism and D'ism because of the expression "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." It means, to them, that plan "B" the church is awkwardly interjected into history out of nowhere for a little while, and the Big Dance of Israel in its land resumes right after.

It is all due to a misunderstanding of "until" and to using the OT in a way that is foreign to the NT.

On the term "until" we need only realize that "until"--often meaning for the duration--is not a guarantee of anything after it. One of the most useful illustrations of this is Ps 110. "Sit at my right hand / until I make your enemies / a footstool for your feet."

If "until" was a guarantee of a reversal at its termination, Christ would be made to get back up again and be busy doing God's work in the universe after his enemies were finally vanquished. So much for the visit to this planet in the harshest of conditions and the most hideous of human death for us. But this is not the picture of heaven that we get from the Rev (whether we believe it to be future or not does not matter). Christ is the Lamb seated on the throne, 7:15, 5:13 and Heb 1:9 (Ps 45), Acts 2, one with the Father.

This is a gross misrepresentation of both the significance of the word "until" and the significance Dispenationalists place upon it.

You are indeed correct that it implies "for the duration." But it also clearly implies an end to that "duration." We indeed stress the implied end. But I have never know even one dispensationalist anywhere that even suggested that it "might" mean a reversal at that end. It simply means that there will be an end to the stated condition.



And the example you give to "prove" this is horribly wrong. At the time of His coming, Jesus will indeed rise up and work once again. The scriptures detail five distinct battles or campaigns He will fight or lead when He returns.

I have traced these in detail in the thread:

What Happens When Messiah Comes
http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/

 

[Interplanner]

Jesus gets to sit; the Father makes his enemies his footstool. There's nothing else to do after that but have his children in his lap!

I'm aware he stood to recieve Stephen, and, I think, all those martyred for the Gospel.

 

[Interplanner]

The weight put on it by D'ists cannot be an innaccurate statement. They totally depend on it as a tracer.

The sitting of the enthroned Jesus is his reward. You don't force a person of honor to get back up and work when he has just redeemed the world.

 

[Biblewriter]

The weight put on it by D'ists cannot be an innaccurate statement. They totally depend on it as a tracer.

The sitting of the enthroned Jesus is his reward. You don't force a person of honor to get back up and work when he has just redeemed the world.

It is total nonsense to pretend that we "totally depend on" any particular scripture. We totally depend on t he Bible, all of it.

We do totally depend on the word "until" as one of the many scriptural proofs of the complete error of your position.

 

[AJCServant]

Originally Posted by Interplanner

All the Thess material should be read in light of the DofJ. The 2nd coming was expected right after it, but allowed to be delayed.
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Originally Posted by AJCServant

Hi all,
and Hi again Interplanner,

Valid points that so many refuse to, or can not "see" for some spiritual reasons, that cause many doctrines- of- men to become used by Beelzebub to steal, kill, and destroy Jesus' inheritances throughout the earth, as he compels many "religious" and unlearned people to be spiritually indolent towards God's plights in destroying the works of the Devil in the earth - I think.

Will anyone rise up and stand in the gap with me for our nations to work to see that Zechariah 14:10 does not occur before 2Peter 2 is to be fulfilled by The Prince of Peace Himself in a surgical and orderly way, and would thereby only be done after we are "all"
[*] evacuated for a short season?


More called-out "believers" truly need to become holy [+] as our God is holy for this to occur - I think.

[+: Holiness defined via scripture is - - "set apart for service" to "all" of mankind, and the Trinity does this without favoritism so that eventually 1 John 3:8b would be fulfilled in the earth as more "believers" would become "Holy" disciples of Jesus.]

Originally Posted by AJCServant

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So I encourage you to "worship" God with your life and He will make His presence known in a deeper more relational and covenantal way every day you will be in His service during your short sojourn here.

I hope I have encouraged some of you a little today and whoever might someday read this post in the future.

God bless.

Into Jesus' love - we should "all" put our trust eternally,
AJCServant
John 10 & 15 & 17 & Revelation 21
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*: Colossians 1:20 - - And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, OR things in heaven.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]+: 1 John 3:8b - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
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Marana tha, INSHALLAH, Amen.
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[Interplanner]

BW wrote:
the complete error of position

My point exactly. There aren't any places that the NT makes clear in favor of a future Israel kingdom, or a millenium apart from the new earth etc. There might be an attempt by Judaism to replicate what happenend in the DofJ, but I wouldn't get too excited.

So to rest everything on an assumption about "until" in the 2 passages is a mistake. "For the duration" with nothing after is better.

 

[Biblewriter]

BW wrote:
the complete error of position

My point exactly. There aren't any places that the NT makes clear in favor of a future Israel kingdom, or a millenium apart from the new earth etc. There might be an attempt by Judaism to replicate what happenend in the DofJ, but I wouldn't get too excited.

So to rest everything on an assumption about "until" in the 2 passages is a mistake. "For the duration" with nothing after is better.

It is simple unbelief to insist that nothing in the Old Testament can be true unless it is repeated in the New Testament. But the repeated use of the word "until" is only one of the many ways that the New Testament reinforces, rather than denies, what the Old Testament so very clearly insists upon.

 

[Interplanner]

But it has to show up plausibly, somewhere in the NT. It never matters, and the thing that is in issue in Gal 3 due to their replacement theology is resolved. Why upend that?

 

[Interplanner]

"Your enemies" was not meant to be read favoring Israel. It was Messiah's enemies. He is seated until the Father destroys them all in honor of him. Mt 21:41 etc.