A Letter to Islam - Your Critique, please!

Light of the East

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have your responses ready though, but frame them as questions. as an example, if you ask and she brings up what the Quran says, ask for evidence earlier as if you are inquiring for knowledge from her. God willing, her research for you will lead her to realize the Scriptures were not corrupted.

I shall try. I think your advice has much wisdom to it and will keep us in conversation. I am not well-versed in Islam, so this is a chance for me to learn more also. Your prayers for her (May) are appreciated.
 
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Light of the East

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Okay. We're on.

Here's her reply to me:

Hello Mr. Ed,
Nice to hear from you! You're the fist non muslim to actually ask me questions this deep relating to God and faith. Usually the questions are selfish in nature such as "why do i have to cover" "why can't I drink alcohol" "why can't i do this and that" but you're questions are those of a person seeking the truth and God willing because you're sincere the truth will seek you. May I suggest that you wake up in the last third of the night when it's just you and God and sincerely ask God to guide you to the truth whatever it may be. Ask him and tell him that you're sincere and for him to guide you to the truth. Without any bias or preconceived judgement just you and God and pray and have a conversation.

Now to answer your question:

I guess what's out there for us is the Quran that says that but it's hard to ask a non believer in Islam to use the Quran as proof. Below I copied and pasted a few verses plus hadith (prophet quotes) that talk about this. I'll also ask around and do more research.

Also from personal experience I see that every single Christian is unique in their beliefs. With only one God and one Jesus why is there so many different denominations and churches within the "same" religion. For example, Ramadan is next week and we'll be fasting God willing but when my christian friends fast they add they're on interpretation as to what that means (giving up games, internet, Facebook, drinking etc..) which is honestly very strange to me because that's not what God meant by fasting. That in itself is a modern day corruption of the scripture because the next generation won't even know what fasting is, why was it prescribed, etc...they'll just know to give up "something" whatever that might be, whatever they want it to be. (EDIT: I find her take on fasting to be extremely interesting. I often chide my Roman Catholic friends, trying to be as polite as possible but at the same time making it clear to them that "giving up" something for Lent is not the same as fasting. The Roman idea of "two small meals and one medium meal" as fasting also strikes me as kind of .... ridiculous.

Isn't it interesting how our actions are a testimony that people are watching very, VERY closely?)
 
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Dear Islam,

Please focus more on peace and almsgiving and less on explosives, detonators, veils, and burning American flags in effigy. If you stop doing these things, you'll cease to be the constant bad guys in movies and on TV shows like 24.

Signed,

____________

This is gurney's recommendation. Brevity is paramount.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Okay. We're on.

Here's her reply to me:

Hello Mr. Ed,
Nice to hear from you! You're the fist non muslim to actually ask me questions this deep relating to God and faith. Usually the questions are selfish in nature such as "why do i have to cover" "why can't I drink alcohol" "why can't i do this and that" but you're questions are those of a person seeking the truth and God willing because you're sincere the truth will seek you. May I suggest that you wake up in the last third of the night when it's just you and God and sincerely ask God to guide you to the truth whatever it may be. Ask him and tell him that you're sincere and for him to guide you to the truth. Without any bias or preconceived judgement just you and God and pray and have a conversation.

Now to answer your question:

I guess what's out there for us is the Quran that says that but it's hard to ask a non believer in Islam to use the Quran as proof. Below I copied and pasted a few verses plus hadith (prophet quotes) that talk about this. I'll also ask around and do more research.

Also from personal experience I see that every single Christian is unique in their beliefs. With only one God and one Jesus why is there so many different denominations and churches within the "same" religion. For example, Ramadan is next week and we'll be fasting God willing but when my christian friends fast they add they're on interpretation as to what that means (giving up games, internet, Facebook, drinking etc..) which is honestly very strange to me because that's not what God meant by fasting. That in itself is a modern day corruption of the scripture because the next generation won't even know what fasting is, why was it prescribed, etc...they'll just know to give up "something" whatever that might be, whatever they want it to be. (EDIT: I find her take on fasting to be extremely interesting. I often chide my Roman Catholic friends, trying to be as polite as possible but at the same time making it clear to them that "giving up" something for Lent is not the same as fasting. The Roman idea of "two small meals and one medium meal" as fasting also strikes me as kind of .... ridiculous.

Isn't it interesting how our actions are a testimony that people are watching very, VERY closely?)

as to her points. Islam claims the Christians and Jews corrupted the Scriptures prior to Mohammed. so a modern day corruption of practice is not the corruption that Islam claims. just because we screw stuff up, that doesn't mean it did prior to Mohammed.

and concerning denominations, what about Sunni vs Shia? isn't one division one too many if that is how we define corruption? what about ISIS, who would sooner destroy a historical mosque as idolatry?
 
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PittBullMom

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I know from experience Muslim proselytizers are super aggressive and will constantly bait to break a Christians faith. I personally would never entertain another conversation with a Muslim again. its pure craziness.
 
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dzheremi

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You really do need to be on your mettle, that's for sure. While the questions or claims are usually not theologically deep (quite the contrary), the people asking them are generally persistent and convinced that they are right in a way that seems almost pathological to the average Christian, and can easily lead to intimidation.

Since she brings up Ramadan as an example of the scripture that Islam has supposedly preserved, please see the video below for some facts regarding how well that goes. It's from a Protestant Christian, but all of my Egyptian and Sudanese friends (and also those who previously lived in Kuwait, Saudi, and other parts of the Middle East) from church tell me that the observations that this man has made are borne out in reality in Islamic countries, re: Muslims eating more during their fasting month, not being productive (since society essentially shuts down during the daylight hours), being wasteful, etc.


Ramadan is fasting in the same way that jihad is just an inner spiritual struggle, or the jizya is just a small additional tax levied to compensate for non-Muslims' not giving zakat. :rolleyes:

By all means, be courteous to this woman or any other Muslim you may correspond with, but do not lose sight of the fact that all replies you may get will be tailored in such a way as to make Islam look superior to Christianity, in so far as it is possible (they would love for everyone to join their cult, obviously). She would not, I imagine, put up the Muslim fast practices as an example of a way that they have preserved what Christians have not if the comparison were instead between the Islamic Ramadan and the EO fasts or the Coptic Orthodox fasts, since we both fast to a far greater degree than Muslims do -- and they're actual fasts, too, none of this "I gave up candy bars for Lent" stuff.

So Islam is more stringent than Western creampuff Christianity. So what? It's still false and from Satan.
 
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Light of the East

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You really do need to be on your mettle, that's for sure. While the questions or claims are usually not theologically deep (quite the contrary), the people asking them are generally persistent and convinced that they are right in a way that seems almost pathological to the average Christian, and can easily lead to intimidation.

Since she brings up Ramadan as an example of the scripture that Islam has supposedly preserved, please see the video below for some facts regarding how well that goes. It's from a Protestant Christian, but all of my Egyptian and Sudanese friends (and also those who previously lived in Kuwait, Saudi, and other parts of the Middle East) from church tell me that the observations that this man has made are borne out in reality in Islamic countries, re: Muslims eating more during their fasting month, not being productive (since society essentially shuts down during the daylight hours), being wasteful, etc.


Ramadan is fasting in the same way that jihad is just an inner spiritual struggle, or the jizya is just a small additional tax levied to compensate for non-Muslims' not giving zakat. :rolleyes:

By all means, be courteous to this woman or any other Muslim you may correspond with, but do not lose sight of the fact that all replies you may get will be tailored in such a way as to make Islam look superior to Christianity, in so far as it is possible (they would love for everyone to join their cult, obviously). She would not, I imagine, put up the Muslim fast practices as an example of a way that they have preserved what Christians have not if the comparison were instead between the Islamic Ramadan and the EO fasts or the Coptic Orthodox fasts, since we both fast to a far greater degree than Muslims do -- and they're actual fasts, too, none of this "I gave up candy bars for Lent" stuff.

So Islam is more stringent than Western creampuff Christianity. So what? It's still false and from Satan.


I have no misunderstanding of what she is attempting to do. One of the things I hope to achieve, besides hopefully giving her a balanced understanding of the Christian faith (and hopefully something that the Holy Spirit can use to touch her heart), is to better understand Islam so as to be able to better talk with Muslims.

Western Christians had better learn this. Islam is not going away and their goal is conversion of the whole world.
 
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Light of the East

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You really do need to be on your mettle, that's for sure. While the questions or claims are usually not theologically deep (quite the contrary), the people asking them are generally persistent and convinced that they are right in a way that seems almost pathological to the average Christian, and can easily lead to intimidation.

Since she brings up Ramadan as an example of the scripture that Islam has supposedly preserved, please see the video below for some facts regarding how well that goes. It's from a Protestant Christian, but all of my Egyptian and Sudanese friends (and also those who previously lived in Kuwait, Saudi, and other parts of the Middle East) from church tell me that the observations that this man has made are borne out in reality in Islamic countries, re: Muslims eating more during their fasting month, not being productive (since society essentially shuts down during the daylight hours), being wasteful, etc.


Ramadan is fasting in the same way that jihad is just an inner spiritual struggle, or the jizya is just a small additional tax levied to compensate for non-Muslims' not giving zakat. :rolleyes:

By all means, be courteous to this woman or any other Muslim you may correspond with, but do not lose sight of the fact that all replies you may get will be tailored in such a way as to make Islam look superior to Christianity, in so far as it is possible (they would love for everyone to join their cult, obviously). She would not, I imagine, put up the Muslim fast practices as an example of a way that they have preserved what Christians have not if the comparison were instead between the Islamic Ramadan and the EO fasts or the Coptic Orthodox fasts, since we both fast to a far greater degree than Muslims do -- and they're actual fasts, too, none of this "I gave up candy bars for Lent" stuff.

So Islam is more stringent than Western creampuff Christianity. So what? It's still false and from Satan.

Regarding your video (excellent BTW) most people don't know this about Islam. They hear about the fasting and think that Muslims are really devout people. Yeah, they are devoted - to the exercise of their passions, as the video shows.
 
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dzheremi

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Yes, that too. The laws are very harsh on non-Muslims during Ramadan in many ways.

In Egypt, there is a tradition among the Christians of giving little dates to Muslims to break their fast during Ramadan, as a sign of good will, and even that can land you in jail for 'contempt of religion' and 'preaching Christianity', which are both illegal.

Muslims suddenly take their fast a lot more seriously when it can be used as a cudgel to beat others with.
 
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Lukaris

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I would also ask if our scriptures are corrupted why did the Lord say the prophets and law prophesied only until the time of John the Baptist? There is no corruption of this scripture of the Lord which said this for centuries before their “prophet” was born? They admit Jesus Christ (pbuh) is sinless & a prophet of Allah. Where is a prophet of God wrong in scripture that is not corrupt?
See Matthew 11:7-13.
 
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Godistruth1

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I know Islam says that Christians and Jews have corrupted the Scriptures, what is out there that shows this (because that is extremely important and interesting)?
The bible has verses in KJV which are not in NIV/RSV, Catholic bible has 14 more books than the Protestant bible. There are contradictions too
 
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Norbert L

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Unless, of course (and hopefully) the Holy Spirit tweaks her heart and makes her hunger for the lover of her soul!
Sometimes it doesn't happen over night. Life happens and over the years, things take place and bring people to a place where all the pieces begin to fit together.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The bible has verses in KJV which are not in NIV/RSV, Catholic bible has 14 more books than the Protestant bible. There are contradictions too

I mean the Scriptures prior to Mohammed. the Bibles you are mentioning are modern, so you can't use them since they were not around when Islam claimed we corrupted them. so, do you have any evidence of Christian corruption prior to Mohammed's revelation?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Christianity changed after merging with romans. They were deceived by satan to change the scripture. Even now people are deceived to worship Mary or Saints

The bible has changed can be proven even now. There are verses in KJV which are not in NIV or RSV or whole books differ from catholic bible vs Protestant bible. Catholic bible has 14 more books than Protestant bible.

Not possible because there are none

NO, bible teaches to murder innocent babies, women & livestock
What bible says about killing Children and livestock and women!

Muslims are allowed to defend and fight their enemies not show the other cheek when someone has wronged you or is going to kill you

Nope. Good reason why Christianity spread was through Crusades

No Christianity is based on teachings of St. Paul. What does it mean God is love. If God loves then how is it different and better than saying God is love?

A big lie

You are not aware of status of women in bible. Its all whitewashing. Female babies before Islam were buried alive by Arabs and they had no right to inheritance and had no value. After Islam babies were stopped from burying alive, they had right to inheritance and right to work and they were equal in they eyes of Allah.

Why should God be referred to as father. In Islam Allah loves humans more than 69 times than mother. Can love be greater than that?

We don't believe God can die. Not for sins another person has committed. Jesus is a prophet, a righteous man. We believe about Jesus what's written in Acts 2:22 .

That's not true. Every Muslim will enter Paradise through God's grace not by his works alone. God will look at works and enter people according to the works by grace. No one can do deeds to qualify him for Paradise.

Its same in old testament. Nothing different in Islam

Of course we are given power over satan
He(Allah) said: This is a right way with Me: Surely, as regards My servants, you(Satan) have no authority over them except those who follow you of the deviators.” [Holy Quran, al-Hijr; The Rocky Tract, Shakir 15:42]

Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy! He only invites his adherents that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire. Quran[35:6]

And Shaitan (Satan) will say when the matter has been decided: "Verily, Allah promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, so you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me (Satan) as a partner with Allah (by obeying me in the life of the world). Verily, there is a painful torment for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)."

Power over satan:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet once offered the prayer and said, "Satan came in front of me and tried to interrupt my prayer, but Allah gave me an upper hand on him and I choked him. No doubt, I thought of tying him to one of the pillars of the mosque till you get up in the morning and see him. Then I remembered the statement of Prophet Solomon, 'My Lord ! Bestow on me a kingdom such as shall not belong to any other after me.' Then Allah made him (Satan) return with his head down (humiliated)." SAHIH AL-BUKHARI [VOL.:2, BOOK: 22, HADITH: 301]

It was narrated from 'Ubadah bin Al-Walid bin 'Ubadah bin As-Samit that 'Aishah said: "I looked for the Messenger of Allah and I put my hand on his hair." He said: "Your Shaitan has come to you." I said: "Don't you have a Shaitan?" He said: "Yes, but Allah helped me with him, so he submitted." ( Sahih) SUNAN AN-NASAI [Vol. 4, Book 36, Hadith 3412]

There are no contradictions in Quran as Muslims understand Quran. I will not debate contradictions but sharing it and its upto you what you make of it
101 Contradictions in the Bible.

those are weak arguments because they neglect to take into account that the Bible was written by different people at different times to make different theological points. it also completely ignores Jewish culture of the day.

context, as they say, is key.
 
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Godistruth1

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I mean the Scriptures prior to Mohammed. the Bibles you are mentioning are modern, so you can't use them since they were not around when Islam claimed we corrupted them. so, do you have any evidence of Christian corruption prior to Mohammed's revelation?
The claim is valid when verse was revealed about their corruption! If we ignore the modern translations, the contradictions would mean problem in originals itself. Since bible claims Jesus is begotten son of God and God, it's also a reason for Muslims to believe it's been changed!
Also do you agree points I highlighted in my previous comment are valid ?
 
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Godistruth1

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those are weak arguments because they neglect to take into account that the Bible was written by different people at different times to make different theological points. it also completely ignores Jewish culture of the day.

context, as they say, is key.
Its written in bible the authors were inspired by holy ghost to write the books they wrote. If holy ghost inspired them, he can't tell different things to different authors! Also don't you believe bible is inspired by God?
 
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ArmyMatt

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The claim is valid when verse was revealed about their corruption! If we ignore the modern translations, the contradictions would mean problem in originals itself. Since bible claims Jesus is begotten son of God and God, it's also a reason for Muslims to believe it's been changed!
Also do you agree points I highlighted in my previous comment are valid ?

yes, so what evidence do you have from prior to Mohammed? saying modern translations are off doesn't show the Scriptures were corrupted at the time Islam said they were. it only proves people are mistranslating them now.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Its written in bible the authors were inspired by holy ghost to write the books they wrote. If holy ghost inspired them, he can't tell different things to different authors! Also don't you believe bible is inspired by God?

while you are correct that He would not inspire contradictions, what you are neglecting is that He inspired different authors to write to different audiences. which means the contradictions you noted might not actually be contradictions.
 
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Godistruth1

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yes, so what evidence do you have from prior to Mohammed? saying modern translations are off doesn't show the Scriptures were corrupted at the time Islam said they were. it only proves people are mistranslating them now.
The evidence we would say and I say again is contradictions. Since bible is the word of God it can't have contradictions. Also bible at many places records Jesus saying he can't do anything on his own, that miracles he does is God doing it through him, that he did not know everything which are opposite of what God can do!
Mistranslation will have different words not having the whole verse/books removed!
 
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