A Justified Acquitted World !

[Brightfame52]

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is also the World John writes of in his Epistle when writing of the propitiation of Christ taking away our Sins 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Now being the propitiation for our sins, and taking them away are one and the same. His Death was that satisfaction to Gods Law and Justice to take away our sins, and that could not be the case if were not absolved of, acquitted from, justified from them all before God. Doesn't the resurrection of Christ testify the same Rom 4:25

Who [The Lamb of God] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So that World in Jn 1:29 is a Justified world with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19 because they've been taken away, so it cant apply to all without exception ! Some will yet die in their sins Jn 8:21,24

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is also the World John writes of in his Epistle when writing of the propitiation of Christ taking away our Sins 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Now being the propitiation for our sins, and taking them away are one and the same. His Death was that satisfaction to Gods Law and Justice to take away our sins, and that could not be the case if were not absolved of, acquitted from, justified from them all before God. Doesn't the resurrection of Christ testify the same Rom 4:25

Who [The Lamb of God] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So that World in Jn 1:29 is a Justified world with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19 because they've been taken away, so it cant apply to all without exception ! Some will yet die in their sins Jn 8:21,24

Are you Lutheran?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So that World in Jn 1:29 is a Justified world with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19 because they've been taken away, so it cant apply to all without exception ! Some will yet die in their sins Jn 8:21,24

Not that I agree with your apparent premise, that all the sins of the whole world were taken away, but can you explain this logic, that all sin being taken away from all without exception, the fact some die in their sins means not all people without exception? WHAT can't apply to all without exception?

Then, explain your premise, please. How does anything in Scripture mean that the world is a justified world with no sin charged to 'it'. And by 'it', there, do you mean all people of the world who ever will have existed, or all people who existed before the cross, or all people who's sins were forgiven before belief but not sins committed after belief, or what exactly are you referring to and what do you mean by it?

 

[com7fy8]

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

I have thought "sin" to mean the sin which causes people to be able to do the sins. So, Jesus takes away the sin character, so then a person can not continue to do the sins.

But I see also, as words can have different meanings, that "sin" can mean all the sinning as a whole . . . the actions, versus the character making it possible to do the sins . . . or both the character and its sinning.

It is like how my little sister was able to tackle my uncle who was over six feet tall and over two hundred pounds, I think . . . while little sister was maybe two and a half feet tall > she did not try to attack him face to face, but she hugged him around his knees, so he could not move, then she lifted upward just enough so he fell over into the fireplace!!

So, like unto this, I see how the Lamb of God could be practical, by not trying to just fight all the sins, but go after that character of sin which makes people able to do all the sins.

But, in the process, He has gotten us started, by forgiving us from the cross.

But then we need how God is able to change our character so we are loving, instead . . . with "faith working through love" > in Galatians 5:6.

 

[Mark Quayle]

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is also the World John writes of in his Epistle when writing of the propitiation of Christ taking away our Sins 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Now being the propitiation for our sins, and taking them away are one and the same. His Death was that satisfaction to Gods Law and Justice to take away our sins, and that could not be the case if were not absolved of, acquitted from, justified from them all before God. Doesn't the resurrection of Christ testify the same Rom 4:25

Who [The Lamb of God] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So that World in Jn 1:29 is a Justified world with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19 because they've been taken away, so it cant apply to all without exception ! Some will yet die in their sins Jn 8:21,24

I have thought "sin" to mean the sin which causes people to be able to do the sins. So, Jesus takes away the sin character, so then a person can not continue to do the sins.

But I see also, as words can have different meanings, that "sin" can mean all the sinning as a whole . . . the actions, versus the character making it possible to do the sins . . . or both the character and its sinning.

It is like how my little sister was able to tackle my uncle who was over six feet tall and over two hundred pounds, I think . . . while little sister was maybe two and a half feet tall > she did not try to attack him face to face, but she hugged him around his knees, so he could not move, then she lifted upward just enough so he fell over into the fireplace!!

So, like unto this, I see how the Lamb of God could be practical, by not trying to just fight all the sins, but go after that character of sin which makes people able to do all the sins.

But, in the process, He has gotten us started, by forgiving us from the cross.

But then we need how God is able to change our character so we are loving, instead . . . with "faith working through love" > in Galatians 5:6.

Probably in its strictest sense, sin is a category; but in common use it is almost a being, a horror that goes by the name 'Evil'. The term is also used as a governing principle of differing degrees, whereby one is (or is not) under its authority and influence.

While I wait for com7fy8 to answer my questions as to just what he means and believes, I wish not to go too deeply into this, but there is a use of such verses as John 1:29 where 'sin' means only a category, to definitely not say 'sins' of the world. In other words, where Christ's substitution made it possible for some to be separated from their sins, while not actually doing so for everyone.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not that I agree with your apparent premise, that all the sins of the whole world were taken away, but can you explain this logic, that all sin being taken away from all without exception, the fact some die in their sins means not all people without exception? WHAT can't apply to all without exception?

Then, explain your premise, please. How does anything in Scripture mean that the world is a justified world with no sin charged to 'it'. And by 'it', there, do you mean all people of the world who ever will have existed, or all people who existed before the cross, or all people who's sins were forgiven before belief but not sins committed after belief, or what exactly are you referring to and what do you mean by it?

I have explained myself already, apparently you just dont understand.

 

[bling]

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is also the World John writes of in his Epistle when writing of the propitiation of Christ taking away our Sins 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Now being the propitiation for our sins, and taking them away are one and the same. His Death was that satisfaction to Gods Law and Justice to take away our sins, and that could not be the case if were not absolved of, acquitted from, justified from them all before God. Doesn't the resurrection of Christ testify the same Rom 4:25

Who [The Lamb of God] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So that World in Jn 1:29 is a Justified world with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19 because they've been taken away, so it cant apply to all without exception ! Some will yet die in their sins Jn 8:21,24

The main issue I immediately notice is: you seem to be equating the fact that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb for all sins and the propitiation (atoning sacrifice which brings us into relationship with God), with completion of the entire atonement process. Being the sacrifice for every sin is not the same thing as saying the atonement process was completed for all sinners, the sinner has a part to play.


God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more than just forgiveness, since, if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:


Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ in Lev. 16 while, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least in Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is, it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I have explained myself already, apparently you just dont understand.

And I was looking forward to your answer.
Oh well.

 

[renniks]

Of course all have been justified. But they have to accept that verdict.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Of course all have been justified. But they have to accept that verdict.

That's the way it was explained to me by a Pastor. He used the illustration of a jail. All the doors have been flung open but some choose not to leave their cells.
This seems to agree with the idea of a harrowing of sorts. If the demons that ruled the nations and Satan himself has been cast out then the whole world is free to go.
I have been listening to an Orthodox podcast wherein the priests talked about how 'Good News' in the ancient world was actually the proclamation of a King. The King was advancing. You really didn't have a choice to comply. You could get with the new program or be an outlaw.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is also the World John writes of in his Epistle when writing of the propitiation of Christ taking away our Sins 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Now being the propitiation for our sins, and taking them away are one and the same. His Death was that satisfaction to Gods Law and Justice to take away our sins, and that could not be the case if were not absolved of, acquitted from, justified from them all before God. Doesn't the resurrection of Christ testify the same Rom 4:25

Who [The Lamb of God] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So that World in Jn 1:29 is a Justified world with no sin charged to it 2 Cor 5:19 because they've been taken away, so it cant apply to all without exception ! Some will yet die in their sins Jn 8:21,24

Just one small correction and then a comment on your conclusion.
“For” in Rom 4:25 does not mean “because of”. It means “in order to”. He was raised in order to secure our justification, not because we had been justified.

As for your conclusion, you you contradict yourself. The passages you quoted say specifically and clearly that they refer to the whole world, everyone in it, no exception.

Since, as you noted, it is also true that many die in their sin, and will suffer in Hell, there must be something other than Jesus paying the price for sin required before an individual receives the benefit of that payment. That something, as described in Scripture, is faith. Our faith in Him is rewarded by Him with that payment being imputed to us, and our punishment being imputed to Him.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I don't believe that our punishment was imputed to Christ.

I was reading Athanasius's On The Incarnation. If I remember correctly, he said that if our sins were a matter a debt, God would just forgive us. But, our sins are a matter of nature becoming corrupt, therefore, it was necessary that Christ take on the same nature in order to heal it.

Just one small correction and then a comment on your conclusion.
“For” in Rom 4:25 does not mean “because of”. It means “in order to”. He was raised in order to secure our justification, not because we had been justified.

As for your conclusion, you you contradict yourself. The passages you quoted say specifically and clearly that they refer to the whole world, everyone in it, no exception.

Since, as you noted, it is also true that many die in their sin, and will suffer in Hell, there must be something other than Jesus paying the price for sin required before an individual receives the benefit of that payment. That something, as described in Scripture, is faith. Our faith in Him is rewarded by Him with that payment being imputed to us, and our punishment being imputed to Him.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

@Doug Brents Can you show me in Scripture where it says that our sins are imputed to Jesus? I believe that he became sin for us, but I take this literally.

 

[bling]

That's the way it was explained to me by a Pastor. He used the illustration of a jail. All the doors have been flung open but some choose not to leave their cells.
This seems to agree with the idea of a harrowing of sorts. If the demons that ruled the nations and Satan himself has been cast out then the whole world is free to go.
I have been listening to an Orthodox podcast wherein the priests talked about how 'Good News' in the ancient world was actually the proclamation of a King. The King was advancing. You really didn't have a choice to comply. You could get with the new program or be an outlaw.

You might want to read my post 7.

 

[bling]

Just one small correction and then a comment on your conclusion.
“For” in Rom 4:25 does not mean “because of”. It means “in order to”. He was raised in order to secure our justification, not because we had been justified.

As for your conclusion, you you contradict yourself. The passages you quoted say specifically and clearly that they refer to the whole world, everyone in it, no exception.

Since, as you noted, it is also true that many die in their sin, and will suffer in Hell, there must be something other than Jesus paying the price for sin required before an individual receives the benefit of that payment. That something, as described in Scripture, is faith. Our faith in Him is rewarded by Him with that payment being imputed to us, and our punishment being imputed to Him.

You might like to read my post 7 and I like you interpretation of "for" in Ro. 4:25

 

[Doug Brents]

@Doug Brents Can you show me in Scripture where it says that our sins are imputed to Jesus? I believe that he became sin for us, but I take this literally.

Several places this is said:
2 Cor 5:21 - “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
Christ was made (imputed) to be sin (bearing the stain of sin) for us so that we could be made (imputed, given) His righteousness.

1 Pet 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.”
He received all our sin, so that we could receive all His righteousness; all our punishment so we could receive His freedom.

It is literal. He took on, became, received, was punished for our sin. All so that we could take on, receive, be welcomed into His rest.

 

[bling]

@Doug Brents Can you show me in Scripture where it says that our sins are imputed to Jesus? I believe that he became sin for us, but I take this literally.

“2 Cor 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

Is that even a good translation?

What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

What is the Hebraic understanding of imputation?

“2 Cor 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

Is that even a good translation?

What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Ok. So does impute have the same definition as impart then?

Edit: I'm also curious to know, did the Church Fathers teach imputation?

Several places this is said:
2 Cor 5:21 - “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
Christ was made (imputed) to be sin (bearing the stain of sin) for us so that we could be made (imputed, given) His righteousness.

1 Pet 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.”
He received all our sin, so that we could receive all His righteousness; all our punishment so we could receive His freedom.

It is literal. He took on, became, received, was punished for our sin. All so that we could take on, receive, be welcomed into His rest.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ok. So does impute have the same definition as impart then?

Edit: I'm also curious to know, did the Church Fathers teach imputation?

Impute is a legal term. It means “to lay the responsibility or blame for (something) often falsely or unjustly”.

Impart means “to make known”, ie: to impart wisdom or learning. Very different from impute.