A Hypothetical....

[MatthewG215]

question. Lets say that I had never gone to Church in my entire life, never read the Bible, and all through my life considered myself an athiest. However, I spent my whole life building hospitals, schools, and shelters. I dedicated my whole life to helping those in need, but once again, I considered myself an athiest and never considered accepting Jesus Christ as my savior. Now, lets say I was wrong about athiesm... would I get into heaven?

 

[Lyle]

Is not cross posting against the rules?

The answer is a simple... No. Just because you did good things, you would by no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven...

Romans 3:20
"For by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him...."

 

[peggysue17]

just cause you did good things dosent mean you get to go to heaven. you yourself have to beleive that Jesus is Gods son and that He is your Lord and Savior. you could save 200 peolpe from a burning building, but that dosent mean that youll go to heaven! (Hypotheticly!)

 

[Rafael]

It would depend on if the free gift of salvation had been accepted or denied and the knowledge one had been given of the Lord. If that person was a good person, full of love and good deeds and had been ignorant of the truth because of circumstances beyond their control, then God, having the power of life and death, would be able to speak to that soul at any time or place of it's existence. By saying the person was activily an atheist, though, the implication is that they chose to believe the lie that there is no God, and they had refused the love of God - an act of volition.

 

[MinDach]

never considered accepting Jesus Christ as my savior

But did you know about him? Heard the message, but said that was not for me?

However, I spent my whole life building hospitals, schools, and shelters. I dedicated my whole life to helping those in need

You can not get in to heaven by your works. If it worked that way, all we had to do was be good, be nice, and do good. What would the point of the Cross be, Jesus would of died for nothing.

 

[MatthewG215]

"You can not get in to heaven by your works. If it worked that way, all we had to do was be good, be nice, and do good. What would the point of the Cross be, Jesus would of died for nothing."

I'm not sure I understand. Wouldnt Jesus Christ be satisified if we lived in a world where he was obsolete? Isnt peace, community, and brotherhood the ultimate goal?

 

[sawdust]

"You can not get in to heaven by your works. If it worked that way, all we had to do was be good, be nice, and do good. What would the point of the Cross be, Jesus would of died for nothing."

I'm not sure I understand. Wouldnt Jesus Christ be satisified if we lived in a world where he was obsolete? Isnt peace, community, and brotherhood the ultimate goal?

No, the ultimate goal is to be connected to God. The reason people can do "good things" even though they do not believe in Jesus is because God is at work within the world. Even though He may not be at work directly in your life, because He continues to work His goodness around you, you are able to "pick up" on that. No "good person" can congratulate solely themselves for their good works because no man is an island. There are many people, past and present, who have influenced what we are. If you love others and do good works, it is because someone has loved and been good to you. If we trace that goodness back, we will find it comes from God as God alone is good. If God were to remove Himself from the world, we would be without the source of goodness, hence goodness would vanish. This is why making the connection is the ultimate goal. You need to understand Jesus IS life, IS love, IS goodness, IS wisdom, IS purity, IS ..... the list goes on. Without Him those things don't exist. This is the lake of fire (Revelation) ...the place without God, hence the place without any good thing.
If you can look at yourself and recognise that whatever goodness is within you was begun by another, then you have started on a good road. Keep going till you have come to it's source.
take care

 

[tcampen]

A just God will presumably do the right thing. I'd rather let God be just, rather than decide for God what it means to be just.

Thus, if your heart is good, you should not have anything to worry about from a just God. However, if God is not just, then yes, you've quite possibly got a problem.

 

[Hannah Sireci]

A just God will presumably do the right thing. I'd rather let God be just, rather than decide for God what it means to be just.

Thus, if your heart is good, you should not have anything to worry about from a just God. However, if God is not just, then yes, you've quite possibly got a problem.

God is just. But even the best things we do are not good enough for Him. He demands perfection. Things we do may seem good, like building homeless shelters, etc. But God is even interested in our motives. Actually, He is more interested in our hearts than anything else. He doesn't NEED us to do things for Him. He wants us to surrender to Him.

 

[Svt4Him]

Did you sin?

 

[ab1385]

This is an idea based on something I heard, but can't remember where. I'd be interested to know what people think of this, and feel free to tear it apart if its nonsense!

In Mark 3 it says this:

22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[1] ! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

Which is repeated in Metthew 12:

31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now what is this unpardonable sin? Is it conceivable that this sin, the blasphemy against the spirit, is to have knowledge of it yet deny it? By this idea, one can say that having heard the Christian Gospel, if one rejects it and never accepts it, then one has commited an unpardonable sin. However, one cannot commit this sin, if one never encouters the holy spirit (ghost).

In genesis 15, "Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. " Is this an example of doing the opposite?

This is just a random theory, probably with many holes, but Id be interested to hear peoples opinions on this.

Alex

 

[chilehed]

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Yes, you may get into heaven, but it would be dangerously presumptuous to bet on it. If you have reason to suspect that Chrisitanity may be true, and reject it anyway, then you will not.

 

[Lyle]

Isnt peace, community, and brotherhood the ultimate goal?

No. The glory of God is the ultimate goal.. And that is given by following the words of the Bible....

 

[Svt4Him]

This is an idea based on something I heard, but can't remember where. I'd be interested to know what people think of this, and feel free to tear it apart if its nonsense!

In Mark 3 it says this:

22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[1] ! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

Which is repeated in Metthew 12:

31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now what is this unpardonable sin? Is it conceivable that this sin, the blasphemy against the spirit, is to have knowledge of it yet deny it? By this idea, one can say that having heard the Christian Gospel, if one rejects it and never accepts it, then one has commited an unpardonable sin. However, one cannot commit this sin, if one never encouters the holy spirit (ghost).

In genesis 15, "Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. " Is this an example of doing the opposite?

This is just a random theory, probably with many holes, but Id be interested to hear peoples opinions on this.

Alex

I believe the ultimate sin is to reject Jesus, as you are rejecting the one who offers forgiveness (someone has that in their tag somewhere). When you stand before God, if you've rejected His son, you will not be forgiven.

 

[Lyle]

Yes, you may get into heaven, but it would be dangerously presumptuous to bet on it.

The Bible doesn't seem to think so...

Romans 3:20
"For by the deeds of the law will no flesh be justified..."

 

[PRMan]

I agree with Raphe.

Isaiah tells us that our righteousness is like filthy rags before the Lord. We cannot be holy, only good.

The only way to be holy is with Christ.

 

[chilehed]

The Bible doesn't seem to think so...

Romans 3:20
"For by the deeds of the law will no flesh be justified..."

At the risk of turning this into a debate (which is not my intention, it's only to clarify), there's a distinction between works of the law and works of grace. This is a point that is the cause of much confusion for Protestants when trying to understand Catholic teaching. It was for me.

 

[whicky1978]

I agree with Raphe.

Isaiah tells us that our righteousness is like filthy rags before the Lord. We cannot be holy, only good.

The only way to be holy is with Christ.

yes, and "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3.23.

 

[Lyle]

there's a distinction between works of the law and works of grace.

Works of faith are called fruit. For a tree is known by it's fruit.

Indeed, faith cannot be without works.. Because i can say I'm a Christian, but not live it, therefore I am nothing more then full of wind. Works shows the truth of faith because it shows the change of the inner man.... Works in and of itself does not bring salvation, nor will enter a place in heaven.... For one must be perfect to enter in there.
The works of faith support the heart of faith. This only can be placed within a believer when they come to Christ.... "Faith without works is dead." The word for dead means useless, not dead as we would know it.... Indeed, the Bible never says that works get one righteousness, but only faith and a means to prove faith; Not faith itself...

 

[Prometheus_ash]

I may not be the bets one to answer this post, but I am going to do so anyway, just so I can also give you my slant on things as well.

I believe the standard responce you are going to get will be that you wuld go to Hell, as this is the view sponcered by the bible. Others may tell you that you will spend your life in limbo land untill you find your way to either god or the devil.

Not exactly a nice god is it?

Howver, if you were an atheist you wouldn't care one way or another, as you would no that their would be no divine punishment and no divine rewards for the consequences of your life. However, as an atheist, you might recognize the sanctity of life and spend your life (nothing is more enternal than death for the atheist) doing those things as opposed to cowering in fear of a god. "Two hands at work can accomplish more than two thousand hand sin prayer" as someone once said.

This tend s to be the reason theists think that atheists are immoral, because for them there is no reward or punishment, and becasue of the whole eternal sin thing, without fear of Hell to make them strive for good, they believe that atheist's will do evil (now this a sweeping generilzation, as not every christian actually thinks this way, just all the ones I have met).

There are problems to not having a god (no absolut moral authority ect) but there are a number of ways to overcome the Nihlistic problems, one of which is to live for Humanity (thus the humanists). But this is a serious way off the path, and I will leave you with that.