A homeowner is permitted to kill a (night) house invader - Under Biblical law

[Daniel C]

Baloney. I understood you were talking about Biblical Law. IT IS STATED RIGHT THERE IN THE OP FOR ALL TO READ!

. . .

So what would a person do if they had someone break into there home and by the time they met the intruder/thief the invader had already entered? By your reasoning because the homeowner didn't get them right there in the moment and act of entrance it doesn't count,the scripture is no longer applicable....and then what? You just stand there face to face with a robber in your house? Your's is non-sense and it doesn't actually say that in scripture.

I admit in the KJV the details are limited but to me it's pretty clear once someone has entered the home that is the biggest threat. Yes or no?

Anyway you made your point,lacking evidence I would say and I don't want to argue about this all night so why don't we try to end this dialogue amicably and just disagree.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you believe in the One God of three persons of the Bible: God the father,God the Son,God the Holy Ghost?

Seriously if not you should refrain from posting in the fundamentalist forum Jeff because your belief system does not belong here.

Of course.

Now, then, what is your motive in posting this thread ? Revenge or vengeance ?
Guilty conscience from something in the past ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I admit in the KJV the details are limited but to me it's pretty clear once someone has entered the home that is the biggest threat. Yes or no?

But Biblically, that is not stated, and thus doesn't matter.
(IF you want to STICK WITH THE BIBLE) and not add or take away from it.

 

[Daniel C]

I am not deyning Scripture, I am actually saying what the Scripture is saying:

"The Law and the Prophets were until John"
Lk 16:16

Rules have changed. Christ's laws are different.

. . . .

But I have never heard about "night invaders" in my country, so I was afraid you are living in some dangerous area.

See that is you saying scripture is null and void,it is not allowed here,this is the fundamentalist forum and I even showed you the rules. Just don't do it here,other part's of the forum you can deny all you want-not here.

And the UK is a very dangerous country. Without a gun to protect oneself criminals have their pick of victims and the UK is an unarmed society.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The unfortunate thing is if you kill a house invader in many countries in your own home,you are the one who could be punished severely.

Why did you bring up the Bible then ?
In the Bible, if someone killed anyone , their life was taken.
The only exception noted is if it was an accident (actual or claimed, even proven) then the killer could escape to a sanctuary city and was safe as long as he remained there.
If the killer ventured out, he was subject (legally) to being killed.

 

[Daniel C]

Of course.
. . .

You know Jeff I find it hard to believe you hold fundamentalist belief the way post. Just derailing.

Nothing wrong with a person putting in the occasional message but you can't post regularly here unless you do genuinely and sincerely agree with the fundamentalist rules,otherwise you're just not being honest and being a fraud. Fellowship can only can be between fundamentalists:



The Fundamentalist Christians Statement of Purpose
This forum is for all fundamentalist Christians to discuss and fellowship together.

A Fundamentalist Christian is a born again believer in Lord Jesus Christ who:

1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;
2. Believes whatever the Bible says is so;
3. Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";
4. Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
   a. The doctrine of the Trinity
   b. The incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, ascension into Heaven, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
   c. The new birth through regeneration of the Holy Spirit
   d. The resurrection of saints to life eternal
   e. The resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death
   f. The fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ;
5. Practices fidelity to that faith, and endeavors to preach it to every creature;
6. Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth; and
7. Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.
8. Therefore, Fundamentalism is a militant orthodoxy with a soulwinning zeal. While Fundamentalists may differ on certain interpretations of Scripture, we join in unity of heart and common purpose for the defense of the Faith and the preaching of the Gospel, without compromise or division.

Thus a Fundamentalist can be from quite a few Protestant denominations, even nondenominational. Those that defer to a view that sacred tradition is equal to scripture (not sola scriptura) would not. For more information, see Fundamentalism.


Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage:
Homosexuality and same sex marriage may be discussed in this forum, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.


Community Rules
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules. In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

 

[AlexDTX]

The scripture:

Exodus 22
2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.


God allows a homeowner who is confronted with an intruder who invades their property at night to kill them. During the day this method is unacceptable.

People say self-defense is a gray area in the Bible but this shows what God intends for house invaders if they force their way into peoples houses at night. It also helps shed some light on the whole modern day house invasion issue.
*Please note not all countries have justifiable homicide laws for house invaders so check with your local police on the legal situation in your area*

While the principles apply to all people, these laws were given only to Israel. However, regarding to the principles, we have strayed far from personal responsibility. Too much has been delegated to governments who don't truly care about the people, but only their own aggrandizement.

We need to get back to independence and self sufficiency, and not lean on the government for everything.

I live in Texas. It is legal to defend your home if an intruder breaks into the house and you warn them to leave. If they do not heed the warning you have the right to shoot them and the Texas courts will stand by you. That being said, we still have to document and prove our self defense, so it is not a simple matter of shooting them at that ends it.

 

[Daniel C]

While the principles apply to all people, these laws were given only to Israel.

This needs to discussed somewhere else. The Old Testament laws are not allowed to be rendered obsolete in this (fundamentalist) forum.

Did you read the forum rules Alex?

 

[AlexDTX]

This needs to discussed somewhere else. The Old Testament laws are not allowed to be rendered obsolete in this (fundamentalist) forum.

Did you read the forum rules Alex?

I did not say that OT laws are obsolete. I said they were given to Israel, and no one else. I said the principles of the laws apply to everyone.

No fundamentalist believes they have to obey the OT laws. That would mean slaughtering animals for atonement. That would mean observing all the Levitical rites of worship. But they do believe in following the moral laws, which are the principles that I had made allusion.

 

[Daniel C]

I did not say that OT laws are obsolete. I said they were given to Israel, and no one else. I said the principles of the laws apply to everyone.

No fundamentalist believes they have to obey the OT laws. That would mean slaughtering animals for atonement. That would mean observing all the Levitical rites of worship. But they do believe in following the moral laws, which are the principles that I had made allusion.

I notice you did not want to answer my question about reading the forum rules Alex. I hope you're not looking to be good in an argument because it's just simply not allowed. All other parts of the general forum allow the denial of scripture,not here and not yet.

Problem being with removing the OT law is how far do you go with that? Because many of the OT laws which make sense to use now were not repeated in the NT. For example incest and sleeping with your uncles wife etc all OT are they repeated in the NT? No. So can we do it? Ummmm.

We can see how a little of scripture gets chipped away,like male only pastors. And another little piece chipped away like sodomite enabling and on and on it goes. So eventually we just protect the whole of scripture,not observe the whole scripture.

Hope this helps.

 

[expos4ever]

There are two problems (at least) with the OP even from a fundamentalist perspective:

1. The text in question comes from the Law of Moses. Biblically, the Law of Moses applied to Jews and only Jews.

2. Again Biblically, the Law of Moses was set aside at the Cross - it no longer applies to anyone.

 

[Daniel C]

There are two problems (at least) with the OP even from a fundamentalist perspective:

1. The text in question comes from the Law of Moses. Biblically, the Law of Moses applied to Jews and only Jews.

2. Again Biblically, the Law of Moses was set aside at the Cross - it no longer applies to anyone.

Well debate it in the general theology forum.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This needs to discussed somewhere else. The Old Testament laws are not allowed to be rendered obsolete in this (fundamentalist) forum.

Did you read the forum rules Alex?

See and this is what confuses me. I'd say I was a fundamentalist, yet my children wouldn't have to be circumcised - for instance - to prove my faithfulness to God... (and this BECAUSE I believe in the Bible!)

So I guess, someone somewhere maybe should make a thread spelling out what the covenant relationship is, to the fundamentalist - so that some of us can decide whether we fit or not..

I don't understand here..

 

[AlexDTX]

I notice you did not want to answer my question about reading the forum rules Alex.

You are not a moderator. You seem more concerned with your understanding of the rules in this forum than you are regarding the topic. I have already reported you for abusing the rules as your means of controlling the discussion. They may not respond to the report, but I will not waste my time any further in this inane discussion.

 

[Daniel C]

See and this is what confuses me. I'd say I was a fundamentalist, yet my children wouldn't have to be circumcised - for instance - to prove my faithfulness to God... (and this BECAUSE I believe in the Bible!)

So I guess, someone somewhere maybe should make a thread spelling out what the covenant relationship is, to the fundamentalist - so that some of us can decide whether we fit or not..

I don't understand here..

Well these are the forum rules and defintion of fundametalist:

The Fundamentalist Christians Statement of Purpose
This forum is for all fundamentalist Christians to discuss and fellowship together.

A Fundamentalist Christian is a born again believer in Lord Jesus Christ who:

1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;
2. Believes whatever the Bible says is so;
3. Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";
4. Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
   a. The doctrine of the Trinity
   b. The incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, ascension into Heaven, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
   c. The new birth through regeneration of the Holy Spirit
   d. The resurrection of saints to life eternal
   e. The resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death
   f. The fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ;
5. Practices fidelity to that faith, and endeavors to preach it to every creature;
6. Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth; and
7. Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.
8. Therefore, Fundamentalism is a militant orthodoxy with a soulwinning zeal. While Fundamentalists may differ on certain interpretations of Scripture, we join in unity of heart and common purpose for the defense of the Faith and the preaching of the Gospel, without compromise or division.

Thus a Fundamentalist can be from quite a few Protestant denominations, even nondenominational. Those that defer to a view that sacred tradition is equal to scripture (not sola scriptura) would not. For more information, see Fundamentalism.


Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage:
Homosexuality and same sex marriage may be discussed in this forum, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.


Community Rules
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules. In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

-----------------------

And as I just explained to Alex the problem with erasing parts of the Bible,even if it's the OT-Problem being with removing the OT law is how far do you go with that? Because many of the OT laws which make sense to use now were not repeated in the NT. For example incest and sleeping with your uncles wife etc all OT are they repeated in the NT? No. So can we do it? Ummmm.

We can see how a little of scripture gets chipped away,like male only pastors. And another little piece chipped away like sodomite enabling and on and on it goes. So eventually we just protect the whole of scripture,not observe and practice the whole scripture.

 

[Daniel C]

You are not a moderator. You seem more concerned with your understanding of the rules in this forum than you are regarding the topic. I have already reported you for abusing the rules as your means of controlling the discussion. They may not respond to the report, but I will not waste my time any further in this inane discussion.

Wanting to keep the rules actually not abuse them.

Bye.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Wanting to keep the rules actually not abuse them.

Bye.

seems like abuse to me, because there are people who agree with the forum definition, whom your saying aren't fundamental enough for you...

I mean, we are Christian under the New Covenant..

But I'll leave this forum. I'm sure it would make you happy.

 

[Daniel C]

You are not a moderator. You seem more concerned with your understanding of the rules in this forum than you are regarding the topic. I have already reported you for abusing the rules as your means of controlling the discussion. They may not respond to the report, but I will not waste my time any further in this inane discussion.

And that's not very Christian of you to lash out and try to get someone harmed because your own personal dissatisfaction.

Nevermind.

 

[Daniel C]

seems like abuse to me, because there are people who agree with the forum definition, whom your saying aren't fundamental enough for you...

I mean, we are Christian under the New Covenant..

But I'll leave this forum. I'm sure it would make you happy.

If you agree with the definition all is well. I never accused you of not being there.

If you leave that would be your choice.

I notice you have not mentioned anything of the topic of the thread,which was thief/house invaders.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You know Jeff I find it hard to believe you hold fundamentalist belief the way post. Just derailing.

Just read your full description.
From YOUR description/ forum rules, you are LESS fundamentalist than I am.