A Healing Priestess and Feminist Christianity

[Archivist]

That is not of God.

According to your interpretation of scripture and you are, of course, entitled to your interpretation.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Jesus didn't say this.

actually he did
john 16:12-15
2 peter 1:20-21
2 timothy 3:16-17

all of scripture are the Words of Christ. Christ IS the Word(john 1:1). the Holy Spirit speaks what has been given to Him by the Father and the Son.

Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."- Thomas

I don't know who wrote the pastoral epistles(despite the author identifying himself in the beginning of each epistle) and I reject them but I know full well who wrote the gospel of Thomas(gnostic writing) and fully accept it.

cool story bro!

 

[Monna]

But Jesus is clearly male and he said he was the head of the church

Is he the head of the church because he is male, of because his is the logos (of God)?

 

[fat wee robin]

I wonder how they deal with the fact that the head of the Church is Jesus, A male headship, not female.

And He also chose the Samaritan woman and preached to her about the "living water". She wasn't sure if He was the Messiah but she discerned that He was a prophet and then Jesus revealed that He is the Messiah and she returned to her city and spoke with the men on this and many believed *because of* her witness.While some believed *after* meeting Him for themselves.So He might not have called women as Apostles when in fact that word means *sent* but He knows that women can bring people to Him and when she is used by the Holy spirit a woman still can proclaim, prophecy, influence, *lead * people men included to Christ.Just my ten cents worth of off topic talk.John 4:7-42.

Males are supposes to activate ,put into action and women are to respond . The problem is that too many men have opted out of their correct leadership ,and many women in disgust have become to active ,behaving like men .So maybe we need to retrain men to be christian leaders from base one ,in their homes ,and teach women to encourage rather discourage this basic and God created natural law .
I found out something just recently which puts science firmly in connection with Genesis ,and that is that only MEN carry male and female genes , women carry only female genes , ALWAYS , immutably ,so right there you have God 's immutable law .And of course only women can give birth to babies .
We must heal the wounds that bad behaviour has caused on both sides , but trying to change the nature balance which God has designed is not the answer .

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Males are supposes to activate ,put into action and women are to respond . The problem is that too many men have opted out of their correct leadership ,and many women in disgust have become to active ,behaving like men .So maybe we need to retrain men to be christian leaders from base one ,in their homes ,and teach women to encourage rather discourage this basic and God created natural law .
I found out something just recently which puts science firmly in connection with Genesis ,and that is that only MEN carry male and female genes , women carry only female genes , ALWAYS , immutably ,so right there you have God 's immutable law .And of course only women can give birth to babies .
We must heal the wounds that bad behaviour has caused on both sides , but trying to change the nature balance which God has designed is not the answer .

Interesting. That women are to respond while men are to put something into action.

 

[Mrs. M. Ray]

That was written in a specific context. For example, Paul may have been writing about bishops who tried to marry more than one spouse. That is generally what is believed about the situation to which Paul was speaking.

In other passages, women are definitely in leadership roles and in roles that, when they are held by men, are understood as an early form of ordination. Romans 16:1-8 shows Paul sending Phoebe to deliver his message. This role is shared by male pastors in the early Church. Then, it refers to Priscilla as a deaconess. In verse 8, Junia is referred to as "among the apostles."

The Greek name "Junia" is what is used in the Protestant bibles, in that quote by Paul in Romans 16:7. However, my Douay-Rheims bible, translated by St. Jerome from the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures in the 4th century uses the name, "Junias," which is a male Greek name. So it wasn't a female apostle at all. Junias was a male.

Also, the role of the deaconess' was to mainly serve other women....in helping to prepare them for baptism, which included catechesis, and also to prepare the bodies of Christian women who had died, as it was considered improper for men to prepare the bodies of women for burial. They were not cremated back then.

There isn't any indication that women were serving at the altar at all, from scripture. However, I must say that the passages in Romans does show how important women were back then. They did important work, and were a great support to the apostles, and others, just as they were important to Jesus. He raised the dignity of women to a new level, of course.

 

[Paidiske]

The earliest and best Greek manuscripts we have say "Junia." "Junias" seems to have been a later "correction" by people who believed that of course it couldn't have been a woman...

It is not clear that in the earliest days of the church - before liturgies were developed or gospels were written - that there was any clear distinction between the roles of deaconesses and deacons (or, to put that another way, that "deaconess" was seen as a separate role, rather than simply being a woman who was a deacon). All of these things were codified later.

 

[Mrs. M. Ray]

*

The earliest and best Greek manuscripts we have say "Junia." "Junias" seems to have been a later "correction" by people who believed that of course it couldn't have been a woman...

It is not clear that in the earliest days of the church - before liturgies were developed or gospels were written - that there was any clear distinction between the roles of deaconesses and deacons (or, to put that another way, that "deaconess" was seen as a separate role, rather than simply being a woman who was a deacon). All of these things were codified later.

It may not be clear according to scripture. But of course there's tradition to consider. I'll see if I can find out more about the role of deaconesses in the early church according to tradition. I'm pretty sure I can find something written about it.

Can you cite a source which shows that the original Greek manuscripts said.."Junia?" Those manuscripts haven't existed for a long time now. St. Jerome copied from them about 1600 years ago. He wrote.."Junias," not "Junia." His was the oldest Bible, used in the West, which is still in use.

 

[Paidiske]

Can you cite a source which shows that the original Greek manuscripts said.."Junia?"

I didn't. I said the earliest and best manuscripts we currently have say Junia. Are you aware of how textual criticism works? St. Jerome made many errors in his translation (have you heard about the "horns" on Moses?) so it doesn't surprise me that he might have made this one as well.

 

[Mrs. M. Ray]

I didn't. I said the earliest and best manuscripts we currently have say Junia. Are you aware of how textual criticism works? St. Jerome made many errors in his translation (have you heard about the "horns" on Moses?) so it doesn't surprise me that he might have made this one as well.

Where are these manuscripts that say "Junia," and could you please provide a link?

 

[Paidiske]

According to the footnotes in my Greek New Testament, "Junia" is attested with a high degree of certainty, based on evidence in Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, Codex Bezae, Codex Athos, Uncial 0150 (Patmos), 20 different minuscule texts (minuscule refers to the style of writing, not the size of the surviving parchment or papyrus), the Byzantine textual tradition, and the lectionary of Chrysostum.

In contrast, the alternative reading is attested by only five, relatively unreliable, early sources; a papyrus fragment dated to circa. 200ad, one minuscule, the Vulgate (Jerome's translation), a Bohairic manuscript and an Ethiopic translation of the Vulgate.

I don't have a link to that online, but if you google and read about some of these codices you'll start to get a feel for the weight of the evidence.

 

[Mrs. M. Ray]

The earliest and best Greek manuscripts we have say "Junia." "Junias" seems to have been a later "correction" by people who believed that of course it couldn't have been a woman...

It is not clear that in the earliest days of the church - before liturgies were developed or gospels were written - that there was any clear distinction between the roles of deaconesses and deacons (or, to put that another way, that "deaconess" was seen as a separate role, rather than simply being a woman who was a deacon). All of these things were codified later.

Well then, I going with St. Jerome's version, even with the mistake of the word "Horn" that he made from the original Hebrew. St. Jerome didn't actually make 'many' actual mistakes, as you write. It seems unlikely that he made a mistake on the word "Junias." I could be wrong.

However, as you probably know, St Paul also wrote (to Timothy)...."For I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over men; but she is to keep quiet."

What good is an apostle that has to keep quiet? Why would St. Paul consider a woman to be an apostle, given his views?

St. Epiphanus, a Father of the Church wrote in the 4th century:

"And although the order of deaconesses is in the Church, it has not been instituted for priestly function or any such administration, but in order to provide for the modesty of women, to be present at the time of baptism."

 

[Paidiske]

However, as you probably know, St Paul also wrote (to Timothy)...."For I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over men; but she is to keep quiet."

What good is an apostle that has to keep quiet? Why would St. Paul consider a woman to be an apostle, given his views?

And yet in other places Paul allowed women to teach, lead and exercise authority. His record on women is somewhat ambiguous.

If you're unsure about which way to resolve that ambiguity, or prefer to err on the side of caution and avoid women in ministry, that is of course your call. All I'd really aim for out of a discussion such as this is a recognition that there are reasonable grounds for someone to take a different position, even if you don't share it.

None of this, however, directly relates to the OP, which is about a community which goes beyond simply including women in traditional forms of ministry into... something else.

 

[Zoii]

yes,

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
1 timothy 2:11-12
1 timothy 3

So 1 Corin
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

If anyone talked to me or my friends like that they would be laughed out of school. "you girls are not allowed to say anything - you have to go ask your boyfriends" ... yea right go back to the middle east and stay there coz ur like a zillion years behind reality.

Timothy 2:11-12New International Version (NIV)
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. she must be quiet.

Yeah again - I actually think some guys should be the ones to learn in quietness because my experience is that guys can be such idiots. This is who I should listen to and submit? - pfft..... Im smarter and know more about the world than the guys I know - I cant believe men still think this is for real.... its like Nooooooooooo we are in the 21st century - can I bury my head and pretend its not happening?

 

[Sketcher]

They appear to be heretics:

Divine Feminine | herchurch
Goddess Painting and More | herchurch
Goddess Mural | herchurch

God is not a goddess. The furthest one could possibly take it is to call God androgynous based on certain interpretations of Gen 1:26-27, but in Scripture the Lord is repeatedly revealed as Father, and Christ as the Son. Contemporary pagan religions had gods and goddesses, so if God had chosen to reveal himself as feminine instead, I don't see the Israelites having a problem with that. For a long time, they worshiped Ashtoreth as well.

 

[JoeP222w]

Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco, also known as 'Her Church', is a congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and identifies as a congregation which focuses on women's spirituality and feminist thealogies.

The congregation also advertises itself as a centre for women to explore feminist images of God and has a 'healing priestess.'

A Healing Priestess, ‘Changing Church’

And that would be blasphemous idolatry, not Christianity. God is not a female. And Christianity does not have sacerdotal priests or priestesses.

 

[pescador]

Reply to Thursday: (This info is good for everyone as well)

Rich rio
Thursday. Your not even using the K.J.V.

Other versions change 5% of Gods word for copy right reasons so they can make money.

You know other versions take out the deity of God, so much more. The other versions have verses taking out.

The KJV didn't even exist for 1600 years. Are you joking?

Well Thursday!!!
Do you even know anything about manuscripts?.
There are 3 manuscript trees.
Most early version and newer modern versions go off the (1.Ancestor of Alexandrian manuscripts.)
People from Alexandra Egypt worship alot of false gods.
Ancestor of Alexandrian manuscripts.
1.Papyrus
75
C.300 A.D
Codex B
4th century
2.Papyrus
66
C.300 A.D
Codex Aleph 4th century
The revised version 1881,
The American standard version 1946( also did you know that American means "Land of the plumed serpent". The serpent is Satan;its sad there is a version called American standard version. Well it fits though Satan inspires to change the word of THE TRUE LIVING GOD.
Also little more info about American equals Amerioca-pans in 1595. Also Amaraca pans.
Then the Revised standard version in 1946, next
the New English Bible in 1961.
Tree number 2.) Ancestor of western family.
The Jesuit version or versions.
1. Old Latin versions 2th century.
Codex D 5th or 6th century.
Codex E2 4th century.
2.Latin Vulgate 4th century.
Codex D2 6th century.
The Douai version. Which is later with vast changes becomes the catholic version; comes from this manuscript tree.
#3 manuscript tree.
Manuscripts of the Traditional text.
1.Gothic version 4th century.
Codex W Mathew 4th or 5th century.
The Vast Majority of EXTANT New Testament manuscripts.
2.Peshitta Syriac 2nd century.
Codex A (Gospels) 5thcentury.
This is the King James Version 1611
Then the King James Version 1629.
Also William Tyndale used this manuscript tree in 1528 first English translation.
Theses are the manuscript trees.

What manuscript tree does the version you use fall under?

Not only is this completely off the subject but it's biased as well. Why not stick to the subject??

 

[pescador]

When I was very, very sick in the hospital a female pastor prayed for me to be healed -- and I was! That was the day I changed from being an atheist to being a Christian. So tell me, what is this thread about? Some abstract theory or real life?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

So 1 Corin
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

If anyone talked to me or my friends like that they would be laughed out of school. "you girls are not allowed to say anything - you have to go ask your boyfriends" ... yea right go back to the middle east and stay there coz ur like a zillion years behind reality.

Timothy 2:11-12New International Version (NIV)
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. she must be quiet.

Yeah again - I actually think some guys should be the ones to learn in quietness because my experience is that guys can be such idiots. This is who I should listen to and submit? - pfft..... Im smarter and know more about the world than the guys I know - I cant believe men still think this is for real.... its like Nooooooooooo we are in the 21st century - can I bury my head and pretend its not happening?

take it up with the LORD sweetheart..don't kill the messenger.

 

[Phantasman]

actually he did
john 16:12-15
2 peter 1:20-21
2 timothy 3:16-17

all of scripture are the Words of Christ. Christ IS the Word(john 1:1). the Holy Spirit speaks what has been given to Him by the Father and the Son.



I don't know who wrote the pastoral epistles(despite the author identifying himself in the beginning of each epistle) and I reject them but I know full well who wrote the gospel of Thomas(gnostic writing) and fully accept it.

cool story bro!

Thank you for your open mind, my friend. I pray we commune/debate in truth.

In John 6:63 Jesus is confronting physical thought. Male and female are physical, and people miss the spiritual Jesus was teaching. He saw everyone as spirit and soul, and he came to save the soul with the spirit. If he says the flesh profits nothing, why do we cling or think with the flesh.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher. Without it, we don't understand.

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."- Gospel of Thomas

Male/Female, Black/White, young/old, all look the same when viewed spiritually. Our eyes deceive us.