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A forever hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by KisKatte, May 1, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Doorstop?
    So you think I am a Roman Catholic?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  2. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    No, absolutely no differences that would affect theological understanding. Most/ almost all modern translations use the Critical Text with the exception of the NKJV, the MEV, the WEB, and the EOB.
     
  3. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    You are risking the ire of the KJVO crowd with that remark. Apparently the KJV is good enough for Jesus. Plus the KJV is mostly the Tyndale Bible (and a bit of Geneva). So I hope you don't intend to besmirch our Lord and a true martyr of the faith.

    No, your dogma is decidedly Protestant/ Calvinist. You might just prefer that version because it's tough on sinners. Do you have a preferred translation? I'm just curious, as I often use Biblehub it gives one a chance to compare different translations. You seem very particular about certain wording that should or shouldn't be there (eg 'every tongue will swear 'allegiance' in some versions of Isa 45:23). So presumably you have a translation you would delcare to be worthy?
     
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Lousy try. . .it was a question to you, as was your question to me.
    I'll leave that for you to ferret out. . .your disposition is showing.
    I am particular about accuracy.
    Words have meaning, "allegiance" is the wrong meaning.
    Demons can swear to divine truth without swearing allegiance to it (Luke 4:34).
    No, I just happen to use the NIV, am not that familiar with others, though the group of 100 scholars on the NIV is helpful.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Right, all Moses had was voluminous speaking to him personally by God himself. . .see Leviticus and Numbers.
    Uh, check out Leviticus and Numbers.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  6. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Many.
    Some involve single words or sets of words, some whole phrases... and one even involves a part of a whole chapter in the Greek.

    For example, Bibles that use it differ from ones that do not in John 5:4, Philippians 2:6, Acts of the Apostles 8:36-38, Mark 16:9-20, 1 John 5:6-8 and many other places.

    Try comparing an NASB, ESV or NIV with an NKJV, KJV or Geneva Bible.;)

    If you're a Spanish speaker, take a look at a Reina-Valera and compare it to one that is not.
    If French, compare a Louis Segond 1874 with a later one, say, from around 1910.

    Here's a sampling as an example:

    " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
    ( Philippians 2:5-8, AV / KJV )

    " In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!"
    ( Philippians 2:5-8, NIV )

    PM me ( Start a Conversation ) if you'd like to discuss this more.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  7. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Not by someone who believes the actual words on the page:

    " And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
    ( Revelation 14:9-11 ).

    But you can always refuse to do that if you wish;
    I won't, even if it makes me shudder.:astonished:

    God is that serious about sin, my friend.
    So serious, that He sent His Son to save some of us so that we were not all made as Sodom and Gomorrah ( Romans 9:29 ).
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  8. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Very defensive Clare. Even the suggestion of the KJV's use as a doorstop can bring the KJVOs down on you like fire from heaven. I happen to own a 1650 or so edition of the KJV, it's like a grimoire, a huge bound thing. The KJV is high English literate and poetic. Like all other translations, it has its pros and cons imho. We shouldn't use any Bible as a doorstop.

    You don't think William Tyndale was a great man of faith, a saint and martyr?

    Well they can't 'exomologeo' unless they're swearing in spirit and in truth.
    Strong's Greek: 1843. ἐξομολογέω (exomologeó) -- to agree, confess

    1843
    eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

    And the Hebrew word is 'shaba'. To swear is to bind oneself, therefore 'allegiance' is merely descriptive, if not entirely redundant.
    Strong's Hebrew: 7650. שָׁבַע (shaba) -- to swear

    You're really not able to Scrooge this one down Clare, the Spirit has ensured it is watertight and foolproof. All the ends of the earth will be truly converted. It's God's sworn oath, reiterated TWICE and developed in the NT (Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10-11). Believe and trust that His word shall not return void.

    The more scholars the better, eh? Problem with the NIV translation is it emphasises salvation by faith IN Christ, when the preposition should be OF. Big difference, shows its Protestant sola scriptura bias. If we were saved by our own faith in Christ, we'd be able to boast. But we're not, it's Christ's faith and faithfulness to God that has saved us, while we were still even enemies.

    Maybe that's where your currents have gone awry Clare?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  9. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mat 7:13-14
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

    Lord Jesus is teaching a truth about the gate to destruction and the gate to life that was not only true for that time but for an indefinite period not mentioned. If that were not true, He would have stated a limit to the teaching.

    Lord Jesus warns them to enter through the narrow gate.

    Lord Jesus teaches that, not just them he is talking to. For instance:

    "broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

    This statement has no limit attached to it; rather, it is a teaching of the reality of what is happening continuously.

    Likewise, when Lord Jesus discusses the narrow gate, he no longer uses the word "enter," but rather, the gate is so narrow that few are those "finding" it.

    "few are those finding it"

    Notice, there is no limit to the time this teaching ends, rather, it is a present tense that is continuous in that it shows no limit in time. In Greek, most present tense clauses are also continuous.

    Another common example of a present tense that is continuous is all those clauses with the word "believe" in them. In the New Testament, most times "believe" is present and continuous. That is why literal Greek translations state "believe" as "believing" or "believes" in most cases.

    In a clause, this would mean that to believe in Jesus is not a one time action to be saved, but must continue throughout your life. That is why so many Scriptures warn the believers to remain faithful to the end to be saved.
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They are a remnant, because most of the stumbled over the stumbling stone, in that they did not believe. That is what the Scripture teaches in context. See:
    Romans 10:19 through Romans 11.

    We are saved by faith. Faith is present and continuous most times that "faith" is used in Scripture. The Scriptures teach no guarantee that you will remain faithful, but rather, many Scriptures throughout keep warning and admonishing the believers to remain faithful to the end to be saved using many examples to get the point across.

    We are chosen by faith in Lord Jesus.
     
  11. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Chuck Missler puts it this way:

    An engineer who is designing a communication system in anticipation of hostile jamming, or other countermeasures, needs to employ several critical techniques to be effective. In addition to taking advantage of available error detection and correction techniques, he will also attempt to spread his message throughout the available bandwidth. He will avoid clustering his message into areas which would increase his vulnerability to jamming or interference.

    It is provocative to notice that the Biblical text evidences these same techniques. Where is the chapter on baptism? Or salvation? Or any specific critical doctrine? Every major theme is spread throughout the 66 books making up the total message. There is no concentration of any critical element in any single location. One can tear out a surprising number of pages and still not lose visibility of the essential message. (Some resolution or clarity would be lost, however.)

    Hence why the universal salvation message is found everywhere from Genesis to Revelation. The devil just can't erase all the references, so he's got to start working with the leaven of the Pharisees (he's done a good job btw). The Bible is soaked in the Spirit of Salvation, from aleph to omega.
     
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  12. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, I did write that, since Lord Jesus taught it.

    According to God's Word, when we read the context, we forgive someone who first repents, just as Lord Jesus forgives those who repent.

    Luke 17:3-4 [Disciples’ Literal New Testament]
    3 Take heed to yourselves— If your brother sins, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
    4 And if he sins against you seven times in the day, and returns to you seven times saying ‘I repent’, forgive him”.
    • God forgives those who repent.
    • We are to do likewise.
    God does not forgive all people their sins,
    We are to follow God's example.

    Lord Jesus beautiful Parable in Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates this truth so plainly, that a child could understand. Those who repent are the ones we forgive without limit - if they repent first.

    Matthew 18:21-35 (WEB)
    ...21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
    ...22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
    ...23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
    ...26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
    ...28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
    ...29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.
    ...30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
    ...32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
    ...35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

    Notice in the Parable that, if one repents, pleading for mercy, then you are to forgive them.

    If a person has no sorrow for a wrong against you, then you don't forgive them, just as God will not forgive anyone unless they first repent.

    Acts 20:20-21 (NIV)
    20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

    Blessings
     
  13. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    Believing and understanding can be two separate things. The actual words are in Koine Greek. In a style that's purposely symbolic and exaggerated. It's like when Jesus said, “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" He wasn't being literal and talking about people actually swallowing real camels. Koine Greek words that can be translated into English as "torment" can also be translated as "correction". "For ever" can be translated as "age", "ages" "age-during", "age to come", "world to come".
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  14. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Are you seriously contending that Jesus teaches that repentance is a necessary precondition to forgiveness?

    Forgive them Father for they know not what they're saying.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Changing your beliefs is as easy as turning a page then.

    MMXX said:
    Eternal torment can just as easily be read as correction in the age to come.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Is that an attempt to silence all discussion?
    You are a false prophet if your opinion is wrong when you declare it was what the Lord taught.
     
  17. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    This is a poor example. There is no difference in Php 2:6 between the Textus Receptus and the Critical Text:

    TR: ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸνἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ

    CT: ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸνἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ

    What you showed is a difference in translating the same Greek text!!!
     
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  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    "According to God's Word..." Do you say that to end the discussion?

    Matthew 5:43-48
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
     
  19. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is a difference between forgiving someone for not knowing what they are doing, and forgiving someone who knowingly sins against you.

    If a person did not know what they were doing was wrong, then it cannot be held against them as sin, for sin is dead without knowledge of what they were doing was against God's law.

    Romans 7:8-9
    For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
     
  20. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just believe what Lord Jesus stated and taught in the Scriptures and you will not have to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
     
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