A Foolproof Way to Become a Calvinist

[Bible Highlighter]

To be committed to Him.

God, Himself, has made it possible for us to maintain relationship without 100% obedience ...

Bible verses please.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To be committed to Him.

God, Himself, has made it possible for us to maintain relationship without 100% obedience ...

Yet, my Bible says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments"
(1 John 2:3).

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." (John 15:14).

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23).

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him" (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

What level of obedience does God desire of us?

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." (Mark 12:29-30).

A command sounds like obedience, and the word "all" in relation to loving God sounds like 100% obedience to me.

Romans 12:1 says,
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"

We are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God, which is acceptable unto God and it is our REASONABLE service.

Jesus says,
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).

Paul says,
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1).

How much are we to cleanse ourselves of filthiness of the flesh and spirit? Just a little? No. It says we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfect holiness in the fear of God.

Today, nobody fears God anymore.
Yet, we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God does not require (100%) obedience.

He requires ... relationship ...

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you ... but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God". Micah 6:8

Thank you for the reply. How does the verse you quoted relate to the statement you made?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

To be committed to Him.

God, Himself, has made it possible for us to maintain relationship without 100% obedience ...

What is the minimal percentage?

 

[A_Thinker]

What is the minimal percentage?

Salvation is not based upon works (i.e. obedience). So, there is no minimum.

Salvation is based upon relationship. It is an affair of the heart.

Consider the thief upon the cross ...

 

[A_Thinker]

God, Himself, has made it possible for us to maintain relationship without 100% obedience ...

Bible verses please.

Titus 3

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[A_Thinker]

The problem with the OP is that it suggests that we should not strive to obey Jesus (Which is wrong). To be a Christian means to be a Christ follower.

I don't believe that this is necessarily true (that the OP discounts obedience).

We love Him ... because He FIRST loved us.

We obey Him ... and should obey Him, because of Who He is to us (our Father and Savior) ... and what He has done for us.

Because He gave His life for us, ... we should give our living for Him.

 

[A_Thinker]

Bible verses please.

Romans 3

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe
...
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Titus 3

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:5 is talking about the Justification Process of salvation (Which takes place when a person first accepts the Lord) by His grace and mercy (Which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law or without our righteousness). For the context says,

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,"
(Titus 3:3-4).

Verse 3 is talking about our old life before meeting Christ in how we were once foolish and disobedient, and verse 4 says that after the kindness of Jesus appeared towards us men, we are then saved by his mercy (verse 5). In addition, how many times have we been renewed by the Holy Ghost? Just once. Titus 3:5 says we are renewed by the Holy Ghost. This is a one time act of event.

This does not mean Sanctification does not also play a part in our salvation after we are saved by God's grace in the Justification Process. Titus 2:11-12 says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Titus 1:16 says that we can deny God by a lack of works.
Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live.

 

[NBB]

Loving the neighbour as myself, includes wishing well being for them, and what more well being that having an opportunity to go to heaven. That God hates half the population and wants them to go to hell conflicts with my view of 'loving my neighbour' i just can't take it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 3

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe
...
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I believe the "holding back" or the "restraint" or "forbearance" of God involving the sins past is in reference to God not destroying believers in the Old Testament right away for committing certain sins like polygamy, and in having concubines, divorcing, etc; But Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Even the OT saint would be ultimately saved by their looking to the future Messiah. Today, God provides a clear way of salvation through faith in the Messiah (Jesus Christ) and in believing in His shed blood for redemption; That both Jew and Gentile can now come to God through Christ and receive redemption and forgiveness of their past sins.

It is true. Verse 20 is saying that nobody can be justified by the deeds of the Law. This would be the Law of Moses because Paul says in verse 1, what profit is there in circumcision? Paul was fighting against the same heresy at the Jerusalem council (Which was "Circumcision Salvationism") (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Also, Paul is referring to the Justification Process of being initially saved because Romans 3 talks about how salvation is now for the Jews and the Gentiles. Romans 10:13 says whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This is the grace part of salvation. This is where salvation starts. But it is not where it ends. Paul says that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief in the truth (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So we need both Justification, and Sanctification to be saved. In fact, Paul asks, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says, "God forbid." (See: Romans 6). So grace does not give us freedom to sin or to not be obedient to Jesus.

You have to understand that anyone who does not hear that prophet (JESUS) shall be destroyed (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Loving the neighbour as myself, includes wishing well being for them, and what more well being that having an opportunity to go to heaven. That God hates half the population and wants them to go to hell conflicts with my view of 'loving my neighbour' i just can't take it.

This is why I see Calvinism as unbiblical.
I do not believe God elects men to reprobation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't believe that this is necessarily true (that the OP discounts obedience).

We love Him ... because He FIRST loved us.

We obey Him ... and should obey Him, because of Who He is to us (our Father and Savior) ... and what He has done for us.

Because He gave His life for us, ... we should give our living for Him.

And how do we love Him?
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation is not based upon works (i.e. obedience). So, there is no minimum.

Salvation is based upon relationship. It is an affair of the heart.

Consider the thief upon the cross ...

What do you think a believer will do when they first come to Jesus for salvation?
Did they not obey the command in 1 John 3:23?
Do you think obedience stops there for the believer?

Anyways, Romans 2:8-9 says,
8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

Sounds like we have to obey to me. For it says that if anyone does not obey the truth but they obey unrighteousness (sin), the wrath of God is on them.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Salvation is not based upon works (i.e. obedience). So, there is no minimum.

Salvation is based upon relationship. It is an affair of the heart.

Consider the thief upon the cross ...

You said this:

"God, Himself, has made it possible for us to maintain relationship without 100% obedience"

Now you say that you can love God without obeying Him at all.

What did Jesus mean when He said, "If you love me you will obey my commands"?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Loving the neighbour as myself, includes wishing well being for them, and what more well being that having an opportunity to go to heaven. That God hates half the population and wants them to go to hell conflicts with my view of 'loving my neighbour' i just can't take it.

God desires the destruction of no man.

 

[NBB]

God desires the destruction of no man.

That is part of what calvin taught right? the elect are destined to heaven, and the rest are hated or ignored by God with no chance of heaven since they can't believe.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That is part of what calvin taught right? the elect are destined to heaven, and the rest are hated or ignored by God with no chance of heaven since they can't believe.

Do you deserve God's mercy? Is God obligated to show you mercy?

 

[A_Thinker]

Titus 3:5 is talking about the Justification Process of salvation (Which takes place when a person first accepts the Lord) by His grace and mercy (Which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law or without our righteousness). For the context says,

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,"
(Titus 3:3-4).

Verse 3 is talking about our old life before meeting Christ in how we were once foolish and disobedient, and verse 4 says that after the kindness of Jesus appeared towards us men, we are then saved by his mercy (verse 5). In addition, how many times have we been renewed by the Holy Ghost? Just once. Titus 3:5 says we are renewed by the Holy Ghost. This is a one time act of event.

This does not mean Sanctification does not also play a part in our salvation after we are saved by God's grace in the Justification Process. Titus 2:11-12 says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Titus 1:16 says that we can deny God by a lack of works.
Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live.

Let's see where we agree, ... so as to define more accurately where we don't ...
(and, BTW, I am in admiration of your scriptural acuity)

I would think that we would both agree that noone, other than Christ, lived a life of complete obedience to God.

I think that we would agree that the Old Testament is, primarily, a LESSON for us ... that WE do not have what it takes to be 100% obedient to God ... and that, therefore, we need JESUS. This lesson is summed up in Isaiah's "Song of My Vineyard", where, despite all of the advantages that God gave Israel externally, Israel still yielded only the "wild grapes" of disobedience.

I think that we would agree that God's gift of salvation to us in Jesus, gives unto us MORE ADVANTAGE than was bestowed upon "God's people" before the coming of Christ. We have the inward dwelling of the Holy Spirit, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, our hearts have been made alive unto God, we have been reborn, we have access to God, etc. ... so that we may then have the potential to live lives 100% obedient to God.

However, Paul is explicit that, while on the earth, believers are tasked with bearing a dual nature, that of the spirit, but also that of the flesh. In the economy of God's salvation, our spiritual nature should be gaining, and our fleshly nature should be waning. But, at no point in NT teaching is there any indication that we have been endowed sufficiently so as to actually achieve 100% obedience (due to our bearing of the two natures in this life).

So, at this point, we hopefully struggle forward in our spirituality, day by day putting on MORE of the nature of Christ, while putting off MORE and MORE of our fleshly nature. This is the essence of sanctification.

All the while God still commands us to 100% obedience. And why wouldn't He ? He is God after all ... He does not change, ... and His clear desire is that we live lives 100% free from sin. In this sense, He is no different than was my earthly father, who clearly commanded 100% obedience from us, his offspring, during our time under his shepherding.

But, now ... we are God's children, ... and God, Himself, has made provision for our failure to achieve 100% obedience. God tells us, that if we sin, we should repent and confess our sin to Him, and, thus, receive His forgiveness and cleansing. Jesus, Himself, acts as our Advocate in heaven, defending us (by His own sacrifice), when the Accuser prosecutes our sin before God. In the end, those who eschew relationship to God are judged out of His records of the deeds (and misdeeds) of men, but His children are given a pass (reference the Passover) ... because their names are listed in the book of life.

You may indicate to me any disagreement with this posting ... and I will go on to compose another posting that continues on this theme ...

 

[A_Thinker]

What do you think a believer will do when they first come to Jesus for salvation?

Did they not obey the command in 1 John 3:23?

Do you think obedience stops there for the believer?

Again, ... I agree with you here.

Belief is ... a first step ... of obedience. So, then ... no believer is ever 100% without obedience.

And obedience shouldn't/doesn't stop there for the believer. BUT, the REQUIREMENT (for salvation) of obedience does not exist for us from the moment of our salvation. For, from that moment, we BECOME God's children, endowed with the gifts and status I described in my earlier posting. From this point on, God's expectation for us ... is to live as His children eternally. Does God have expectations of His children ... yes. And do we, sometimes, fail at living up to God's expectations for His children ... yes. Has God provided a mitigation/propitiation for our failures/sins as His children ... yes. He only requires that we do what relationship demands, ... repent of our sin ... and seek His forgiveness.

I advanced upon this line of thinking ... after a recent preparation for the teaching of a Bible study focused upon David, the "man after God's own heart". And, once again, I was tasked with explaining how it was that David, the servant of God, ... came to receive such blessing from God, though the imperfection of his life was so very clearly presented in the scriptures ... by his very high-profile sins as a servant of God.

We would, typically, answer this question, in my christian community, with the explanation that, though David no doubt grievously sinned against God, ... he remained open and accepting of God's work in his life, ... so that when the time came for David to repent, he repented, ... and so went on as the servant of God. We also, would characteristically think upon David's meditations to God in the Psalms, where it is clear that David maintained fellowship with God ... in a way that few men achieve.

So then, ... as I rethought David and God's dealings with one another profiled in the OT, it suddenly occurred to me that it most closely resembled ... the essence of RELATIONSHIP. In the context of RELATIONSHIP, ... I could clearly understand WHY God continued in fellowship and mentorship (if you will) with David, ... despite his grievous sin. David repented to God of his sin, ... and God FORGAVE it. This is what happens in relationship. It most certainly is NOT what happens in the courts of JUSTICE. God forgives the SINS of His children, even as our earthly fathers forgave our sins against them.

If you will, the DIFFERENCE ... between the interactions of God and man in the OT, and that in the NT ... is the element of FORGIVENESS which is gifted upon us by Jesus' sacrifice.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

In both Testaments, we see God pursuing RELATIONSHIP with His chosen people. In the OT, GOD strives to elevate men ... to a point of acceptability before Him. He gives men the LAW, and commands that they abide by it. But, by necessity, God's expectation is 100% compliance. None of us could achieve it. And so, it appeared that relationship between men and God was doomed per our weakness.

However, in the NT, GRACE enters the scene. Now God pursues RELATIONSHIP with His people such that when they fail, ... He FORGIVES them. He sends His own Son to pay the necessary price for such an accommodation. Christ bore the sins of the world ... so that God could FORGIVE them in us.

And so we shall forever be ... in RELATIONSHIP with God.