A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

[Mountainmanbob]

if so why does God choose to regenerate some and not others?

Answered in Romans 9 as plain as day.

Problem for man is that don't seem fair.

Who are we but little men to ask God what is fair?

M-Bob

 

[Tree of Life]

how does God choose who to regenerate - so they can then have a free will to choose God?

God chooses freely. His choice is not based on anything within the creature, but in the inscrutable council of his own holy will.

 

[Truthfrees]

Answered in Romans 9 as plain as day.

Problem for man is that don't seem fair.

Who are we but little men to ask God what is fair?

M-Bob

perhaps my friend but i'm not here to debate - i only want to know what calvinists believe

i have changed my mind so often on theology as i have gathered new information - so i'm not going to debate anyone or judge them for what they believe - i only want to understand

iow i'm not here to try to make you think like i do - i want to understand calvinism

i realize that some of the people on this thread do want to debate but i don't

so any clarification you can give me based on my questions would help me understand how you interpret Romans 9

God Bless you my friend

 

[Truthfrees]

God chooses freely. His choice is not based on anything within the creature, but in the inscrutable council of his own holy will.

so that means it is a mystery for us as to why God chooses to regenerate some but not others?

and only those who are regenerated can and will choose God? - the nature of regeneration is such that a person now can and most certainly will choose God?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I see no reason to interpret Romans 9 it's very easy to understand.
M-Bob

 

[RC1970]

God bless you my friend

does this mean man's unregenerate will is to reject God and only if God regenerates a person can they choose God? Yes, God must make us alive, spiritually, before we can respond to Him.

meaning God chooses who to regenerate and who to not? Yes.

if so why does God choose to regenerate some and not others? He does not reveal that, but only that it does not depend on anything in us.

My answers are in red above.

 

[Tree of Life]

so that means it is a mystery for us as to why God chooses to regenerate some but not others?

Yes it is unknown to us. But we know that it's not because of anything in the creature.

and only those who are regenerated can and will choose God? - the nature of regeneration is such that a person now can and most certainly will choose God?

You got it.

 

[Truthfrees]

My answers are in red above.

thank you so much

so when a calvinist thinks of how many people were created for destruction - and how few were created for regeneration - he justs accepts that the reasons for this are not disclosed to man - so just accept it and move on?

are there ever any discussions/questions by calvinists as to why God would create so many people for destruction?

is destruction eternal suffering?

God Bless you my friend

thank you for helping me understand what calvinists believe

 

[Tree of Life]

Not according to Scripture. The Bible says,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29).

We believe that when John says that Jesus is the propitiation for sins "not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" that he means "all kinds of people among all the nations". There is a nice gospel parallel in John's gospel which would confirm this interpretation. John is commenting on Caiaphas' unintentional prophetic statement about Jesus' death when he says:

51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 11:51–52). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

This clearly is not a reference to every individual, but people from every nation. I think that's what John means by "world" in 1 John 2:2 and also something similar in John 1:29.

But a question for you. If you believe that Jesus' died to pay for the sins of every individual, then why are there still some who go to hell and suffer for their sins? If Jesus already suffered for their sins, wouldn't this be double jeopardy?

But the problem you are faced with is that you said that God does not choose based on anything foreseen within in the creature. This means that God is just randomly choosing some to be saved and some not to be saved. This means it is God's will to make some people to be evil seeing God can easily prevent it by making them a saved and good person. So while God is not directly creating evil in this case (i.e. creating an already sinful being from the ground up), God is still directly involved in preventing an evil person to exist in your belief and God allowing such a being to exist (When He could prevent it) means God wants that evil person to be their one and only choice. Meaning, it is similar to God directly creating an evil being from the ground up because this being had no other choice but to do evil because God declared that they were reprobate without any hope without any free will choice on their part. So in a way, what you are saying is not exactly true because God decrees reprobate individuals to exist (outside of their own free will choice).

God does indeed ordain sin. But God is not thereby a sinner.

While it is possible I am misunderstanding you, I honestly getting the impression you do not believe that. For are you truly saying that after God regenerates a person, they have a choice of their own free will to reject God just as they have an equal choice to accept Him? If this is the case, then why doesn't God do this for all people? Why wouldn't God give everyone the free will choice to choose to accept Him or reject Him? Does that not seem more fair and loving of God to do that?

When God regenerates a man, enlightening his mind and renewing his heart, the man cannot help but freely embrace God.

Why God has not chosen to save everyone is a bit of a mystery. But in his good pleasure he has passed over some and ordained them to wrath to the praise of his justice.

Thank you for your admittance to this. I believe this helps me to demolish or show you the moral error of your belief. Thank you. But how is this possible? Because we know that life teaches us that true love happens when two parties both agree of their own free will to love each other. For if a man forces his love upon a woman it is not true love but it is something dark and twisted.

I'm not sure what "life" teaches. I just know that what you've described above is not taught by the Bible.

So this means that they do not have free will after they are regenerated. They can no more choose to deny God and walk away from Him after they are regenerated than they can hit bricks with their fists and not feel pain or shoot laser beams out of their eyes. But you said before they do have free will after they are regenerated. Also, this implies that a believer can sin and still be saved, as well (Thereby turning God's grace into a license to sin). For there is nothing they can do to become unsaved.

If this is what you mean by "freewill" then I suppose you're right. You think of "freewill" as ultimate self-determination, which man does not have. I think of "freewill" as the ability to do what one wants to do.

 

[gordonhooker]

Let me ask you. Have you ever not wanted to watch a video about what you believed to be a false belief somebody wanted you to watch so as to answer your questions about their wrong belief they were having? Again, if you understood the points they made to refute me, then surely you should be able to repeat them here for us to read.

Bob asks a fair question, if you truly want an answer to your questions from the perspective of a Calvinist then watching a video that explains it answers your question.

 

[RC1970]

thank you so much

so when a calvinist thinks of how many people were created for destruction - and how few were created for regeneration - he justs accepts that the reasons for this are not disclosed to man - so just accept it and move on? The number of saved and lost are not really dealt with in Scripture. Sometimes the terms "many" and "few" are used, but these terms are not expanded on enough to draw any conclusions.

are there ever any discussions/questions by calvinists as to why God would create so many people for destruction? Romans 9:22-23 and Proverbs 16:4 deal a little with the "why" question. I believe that God has created a contrast, which can be illustrative.

is destruction eternal suffering? I believe the Scriptures refer to it as "torment".

God Bless you my friend

thank you for helping me understand what calvinists believe

See above.

 

[Marvin Knox]

1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will?
2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people or just for the Elect or the saved?
3. Did God directly create evil?
4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ?
5. Does God choose the saved or unsaved based upon what He knew they were going to do?
6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved?
7. Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes?
8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them?
9. Is there such a thing called "free will"?
10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious?
11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment?

1. NO and neither does any Calvinist I know of believe that.

2. All people – just as John Calvin believed

3. NO and neither does any Calvinist I know of believe that.

4. The question makes no sense as phrased.

5. I don't believe that He chooses most whom He will draw to the Son based on what they are going to do. (Paul is a good example of unconditional election in that respect.) But He does answer prayers from family and respond to even non believers to some degree and may open eyes based on that. However, even His response and the prayer itself, in that respect, was predestined to occur from before the person even existed. He does choose all who will be "justified" based on what they will do however. But I don't think you are referring to that.

6. Yes

7. Yes - assuming that said elect person has been justified through saving faith and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

8. I believe in all but so called "limited atonement" (the doctrine that Christ died only for the elect) with some nuanced explanation as to their right understanding (such as with so called unconditional election above). Yes – I can explain them. But I am not the common "party line" Calvinist.

9. There is such a thing as free will as usually meant by the term But, of course, no will is completely free from outside influence and certainly not from internal influence such as a fallen nature.

10. I’m not sure what you mean by this question. It seems to make no sense as worded.

11. God predestined all that happens. Predestination is not the same as authoring or assigning choices to men (hard determinism). There is no conflict between predestination and the ability of men to make choices out of their own will. Every Calvinist I know of believes and teaches these truths. Election and predestination are different doctrines as any Calvinist could tell you.

 

[Almost there]

I'm not sure anyone is going to dive in head first and answer all ten at once.

I read the bible a lot and teachings on it, but I don't follow church history much. I don't even know what a calvinist is. Am I one? I'm a big C. S. Lewis fan.

 

[Almost there]

In 1 Cor 1:

12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Yes, God loves the world. That still wasn't the topic of your thread.

So many take "God loves the world" and run with it. What does that mean in the context of Scripture? Is God worldly then? Does God love the planet? If God loves everyone without discrimination, why did He choose only Israel? If God loves everyone without discrimination, why did He flood it during Noah's day? The common interpretation of the verse just does not agree with the context of Scripture, no matter how I might wish want or feel about it.

 

[Almost there]

So many take "God loves the world" and run with it. What does that mean in the context of Scripture? Is God worldly then? Does God love the planet? If God loves everyone without discrimination, why did He choose only Israel? If God loves everyone without discrimination, why did He flood it during Noah's day? The common interpretation of the verse just does not agree with the context of Scripture, no matter how I might wish want or feel about it.

What, you never heard of "tough love"?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So you are saying that there is a form of Calvinism that does not accept the 5 points of Calvinism?
Granted, I believe it may be possible that such a group may exist, but I do not find it likely that they are in the majority of the Calvinistic camp or Calvinistic belief.

Overall, I think we all, myself included have our inconsistencies and blind spots and areas where we are still developing growing. What is called Calvinism really entails a great deal more than five points. Personally I delight in them and find them helpful for discussion with people open and friendly to Christians with whom there are disagreements. Personally, I was not raised in the Reformed faith, and nobody really laid it all out there for me, it was a long process of reading, some debate, research, and really thinking seriously about Scripture, with the Holy Spirit leading the way...which is certainly not to say the Holy Spirit does not lead other Christians who are in disagreement with the five points, I know better, I was one of them for a long long time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bob asks a fair question, if you truly want an answer to your questions from the perspective of a Calvinist then watching a video that explains it answers your question.

I would only watch the video if I truly thought the Calvinistic video had any potential merit. But it doesn't. Think of a belief that you really don't like and then a person telling you to watch a video on that belief. For example: Would you watch a video on how it is biblical to beat your wife? Surely not. Maybe we come from different walks of life or something, but from where I come from.... that is silly. Surely our fellow CF neighbor who posted the video can give me at least one or two points from the video if they in fact watched the video themselves. Also, my time is limited. Besdes, why would I watch something that I believe teaches against God's goodness? Makes no sense. Have you ever told somebody before that you wanted to know what they believed but you were not willing to watch any videos or articles they were pushing? That would be like me trying to watch and or read propoganda from the Watch Tower Soceity. It is just not going to happen. I will talk with them, but read and or watch their stuff? No thanks. I feel the same way about Calvinism. I do not find it biblical and in line with basic morality.

 

[eleos1954]

1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will?
2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people or just for the Elect or the saved?
3. Did God directly create evil?
4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ?
5. Does God choose the saved or unsaved based upon what He knew they were going to do?
6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved?
7. Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes?
8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them?
9. Is there such a thing called "free will"?
10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious?
11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment?

Please provide Scripture as a part of your answers (if you can).

Thank you.

Calvinist?

Galatians 3
26For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So in that light - as a child of God

1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will? No, it
is a choice - freewill. He knocks on everybody's door. Some will never hear/answer.

Revelation

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people - Yes - Jesus defeated all sin and death at the cross. The plan of salvation that is available through Christ Jesus was in place before creation, therefore available for all mankind.

Revelation 3
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

2. (continued) or just for the Elect or the saved?

Elect -

Strong's Concordance
eklektos: select, by impl. favorite
Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Short Definition: chosen, elect, choice, select
Definition: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).

Romans 10:11 -

11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Strong's Concordance
Hellén: a Greek, usually a name for a Gentile
Original Word: Ἕλλην, ηνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Hellén
Phonetic Spelling: (hel'-lane)
Short Definition: a Hellene, a Greek
Definition: a Hellene, the native word for a Greek; it is, however, a term wide enough to include all Greek-speaking (i.e. educated) non-Jews.

3. Did God directly create evil? No, it was willful rebellion by Lucifer & his angels. Free will in Heaven

Revelations 12

7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ? No, one is born again when one exercise their free will to accept Jesus as their Savior.

John 3

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5. Does God choose the saved or unsaved based upon what He knew they were going to do? No ... He has foreknowledge of who WILL be saved ... doesn't cause the act.

Revelation 1

"I am the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come--the Almighty One."

6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved? No

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Note: He was a apostle, can’t tell me He didn’t get baptized and accept the Lord, yet betrayed Him in the end.

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Lucifer was a covering angel in Heaven and He willfully rebelled, along with many angels and we (mankind) were created a little lower than the angels. If "higher" beings can "lose it" then yes, we can lose it also.

Ezekiel 28

14“You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15“You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16“By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned;

7. Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes?
We are incapable of knowing:

1 Samuel 16

7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

Jeremiah 17

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately sick; who can understand it?
10 “I the LORD search the heart and test the mind,to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them?

9. Is there such a thing called "free will"? Absolutely, versus as above

10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious? Absolutely, versus as above

11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment? Do not believe predetermine in that way.
Which Judgment are you referring to? The saved? The unsaved?

If the saved ... then they will be going to Heaven in the First Resurrection -

Revelation 20

6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

If unsaved then the Great White Throne Judgement. 2nd Resurrection

Revelation 20

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever ...

Malachi 4
3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 13
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.

Mankind was “predestined” or predetermined to have a perfect eternal relationship with God in love, by their freewill. Love - True pure everlasting love can not exist without freewill.

1 John 4

13And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us. 14Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15All who confess that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God. 16We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them

Revelation 21

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

This is why we were created in the beginning, for a freewill, loving eternal relationship with God our creator in His perfect world — WOW — and so it will be at the very end.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

God Bless

 

[gordonhooker]

So many take "God loves the world" and run with it. What does that mean in the context of Scripture? Is God worldly then? Does God love the planet? If God loves everyone without discrimination, why did He choose only Israel? If God loves everyone without discrimination, why did He flood it during Noah's day? The common interpretation of the verse just does not agree with the context of Scripture, no matter how I might wish want or feel about it.

God is love and reveals that to us through scripture - if you believe anything different then you are not reading scripture through the lens of love you reading it differently. If your theology does not start and end in love then I would suggest you have put on the wrong glasses through which you view theology.