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A Dialogue with Liberal Catholics (for the Lord's "Table")

Discussion in 'The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics' started by JesusLovesOurLady, May 8, 2017.

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  1. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Okay... Here I go!

    I've been struggling a lot with rash judgement and backbiting, due to my liberal parish and my own moral weakness. So I've decided to open up this thread to speak with liberal Catholics directly if there are any on Christian Forums, or if there any Catholics who take the faith seriously but have disagreements with Traditional Catholicism.

    My problem is that I have a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to Liberal Catholics (and some of them do, do speak and think this way). The impression I get from Liberal Catholics is that when they look at my beliefs, they think I am just some narrow-minded bigot, who does not really love God, but just wants to put down others and impose my own shallow views on others. But this is not true, I love God, I adore Him and I want to do everything for Him, bending over backwards for Him!

    It's not about me it's about Him, He is Truth Himself, it doesn't matter what I feel. If the Catholic Church is not about doing what God wants, than why bother? Why should I stay here? If the it's just about feeling good, than I can go find better ways of doing that, than the Catholic Church. I'm here because I want to conform my life with reality, that's the only comfort and joy I get out of this. And it's the only comfort and joy we should expect to get out of this. If you believe the purpose of the Catholic Church is not to live in accordance with reality, why are you here? Why aren't you looking for the truth somewhere else? Why not leave the Church? So that you can rid yourself of all the things the Church got wrong, and see the truth clearly? Don't get me wrong, I don't want you doing that, I'm just saying you're not getting out of the Church what you should, and it's not only hurting you, it's hurting others, I want you to wake up and understand that!

    So, that's all I have to say to you Liberal Catholics for now. Now you go ahead and ask me questions, ask anything you want, I'm more than willing to listen and reply, just be open-minded to the truth and try not to get angry.

    Keep in mind I'm very busy right now, I doing a Summer semester college course and I'm doing 33 Day Consecration and Satan's doing all he can to stop me.

    O Holy Mother of God and believers, Mighty Queen of Heaven and Earth, give me your strength!
     
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  2. Robinus

    Robinus Member

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    What are these beliefs ?
     
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  3. tadoflamb

    tadoflamb no identificado

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    I'm not sure if I can help you. I uphold the entirety of the Catholic faith.
     
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  4. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    I'm doing this in point form because because I'm in a hurry, don't think I'm being snarky or argumentative about it (although on of my beliefs is that, the faith should be presented in a simple rational form, like the Baltimore Catechism):

    - Mass should be reverent and focussed more on worshipping and adoring God, and less about being a social gathering.

    - We should treat our faith (as I mentioned above), as though were in conformity with reality and that it is the One True Faith, and that those in other religions should be respected never be oppressed, they need to here the gospel and convert.

    - Similar to the above point, we should treat our faith rationally, focussing more on reason than feelings, encouraging Thomism, Scholasticism, or even just Ancient Greek Philosophy.

    - We should love the sinner but hate the sin, and by love the sinner, I mean, want to save him/her from his/her sins and realize that genuine mercy, love, and compassion means letting a sinner know they are enslaved to their sins and that it is best for such a person to be free of their sins.

    - Realizing that while are no shades of grey and we are moral absolutists, recognizing that there are shades of black (and also shades of white, but I'm concerned with the black) that there are some sins that are more wicked than others and need be fought first, abortion is much more evil than theft.

    - Teaching more about the Sacred Tradition, and the lives of the Saints, and encouraging Devotion to the Saints, especially Our Lady.

    - Humanae Vitae (I'm reluctant to get into this because I'm scared that I'm probably am going to get really upset here. I really suffered a lot at the hands of contraception, it really ruined my life. Contraception is an abomination!)

    That's all for now, there is more, but I think this will suffice for now. I've gotta get back to work, I see you later.
     
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  5. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    What I think is that it's hard to be "community" with 1.6 billion other Catholics around the world---but the wonderful thing is that it gives us choices.

    If you would rather read Thomas Aquinas than Teilhard de Chardin, you will find people who share your feelings.

    My own belief is that there isn't a single one of those 1.6 billion Catholics who isn't unique. We should cherish that uniqueness, and rejoice that we can find community and mentoring from someone even if we aren't smack in the middle of the bell curve.

    Why do you care what liberal Catholics believe and practice? I am perfectly happy to let traditional Catholics gather in community to do things that bring them individually and collectively closer to God---as long as they recognize that other people may grow spiritually in different ways.

    I went on a retreat led by a Jesuit priest recently. You would have hated and disagreed with everything he said every moment of the retreat--most likely---but 25 people were healed spiritually and emotionally. And that's OK.
     
  6. Robinus

    Robinus Member

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    Attending to your first point firstly .

    I have never participated in the celebration of the Mass when it has been seen as a social gathering .

    Neither have I been present when the Mass has not been focussed on the worship of God in spirit and in truth with due reverence .
     
  7. Shiloh Raven

    Shiloh Raven Don't let the Muggles get you down.

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    If I may join this thread as a regular participant in this forum, I would like to share a post @tadoflamb wrote a few days ago in another thread defining what he believes liberal Catholicism means. He did a most excellent job defining what he believes. On a side note, I think it would be helpful if you read the other posts in that thread for yourself.

    Here is Tad's post:

    And after reading through the first thread, I must say I think it was a good thing it was closed so promptly. Hopefully, since this thread is in TLT now, (which is a safe haven forum for liberal Catholics), it can proceed without any strife or questionable remarks about liberal Catholics and what they believe or about TLT itself. I said hopefully, but it is doubtful.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
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  8. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Actually, let me give you the most key belief that separates me from Liberal Catholics:

    I don't believe in an a powerful arbitrary god that just waves His wand and makes all our sins disappear, and then takes us all to Heaven, United Airline-Style.
    I believe in a God of Truth and Love, A God who sees the reality of our sins and how they are against Him who is Love Himself. I believe in God who sees our sins as they really, and how utterly against Him they, how they acts of pure hatred against Him, pure unlove! I believe this is sensitive to our sins that when He (the Son that is) became incarnate, He saw all the sins in the Garden of Gethsemane and they were horrible, so against truth and love, so offensive to Him that He was consumed with agony and seated blood!
    I also that God loves us so much that He will not force Himself upon us, but rather respect our freedom and let us love him out of own free will. I believe that this God will not force us to spend eternity with Him, but rather He will let us decide wether or not we want to spend eternity with Him, those really love Him and really want to spend eternity with Him, He welcomes with open arms, but those who don't, He will not force Himself on them but rather allow them to spend eternity without Him, regardless of how many will reject Him.
     
  9. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    You want to change our minds. You may be doing this out of love.

    We believe we are following God's call in our spiritual practice just as it is. In not changing in response to your posts, we aren't "hating you." We are following God's call as we discern it---just as you are.

    We can respect your spiritual journey as a Child of God while recognizing that we are traveling on different paths to the same loving God.
     
  10. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Let me ask you some questions (By the way, a lot of this stuff happens at my Liberal Parish):

    1. When you attend Mass was your attention always focussed on the altar and that fact that God was present their? Or were you more focussed on the people sitting in the pews around you?

    2. Did you music encourage you meditate and become more deeply involved in what was happening on the altar? Or was folksy and goofy and involved the strumming of guitars and the hyper-masculine banging of drums and appealed more to your passions?

    3. During the Mass is your mind filled with thoughts Christ sacrificing Himself on the Cross, and pouring His life out for us, in the ultimate act of love?

    4. When you went go up for Holy Communion, you and the other parishioners, do treat the Holy Eucharist with the utmost reverence and love or do just pop the communion wafers in your mouth and go back to your seats?

    5. When Mass is over do, you stay and meditate on the what you've went through and how have received God in the flesh under the guise of a Matzo wafer? or do you just go out the door as soon as the songs have ended continue the rest of your day?
     
  11. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Okay, let me ask you a question? Let's imagine that I was at that retreat and after that Jesuit had given his speech, I went up and with the utmost charity, piety towards him, started asking questions. And as the questions progressed, it became more and more clear, that what was said by the Jesuit Priest that what he said was completely irrational and nonsensical, how would you react to that? Would you accept that maybe take a rational approach to the faith? Or would you be angry at me for bringing logical and reason to this retreat when we Catholics should be above that?
     
  12. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Why would you want to go to a retreat to argue with a priest? I certainly wouldn't.

    His focus is on healing, gratitude, and forgiveness.

    I am a church musician. Like most church musicians, we select our music from the hymnal our church uses. In our case it is published by Oregon Catholic Press. It has traditional and contemporary hymns, and I choose hymns that are relevant to the readings of the day.
     
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  13. Fish and Bread

    Fish and Bread Dona nobis pacem

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    Have you considered that conservative or radically traditional Catholicism may also be it's own form of "wish fulfillment" in the same way that you imply Liberal Catholicism is?

    For example, and I'll try to be vague and hypothetical so we don't get bogged down into anything too specific, think about prejudices in the abstract. I'm not accusing you of being prejudiced by any means (I don't know you, and I don't know your heart). But let's say someone (Not you, someone hypothetical) were prejudiced against a specific group of people (We won't say which group, we'll just say a group), maybe only in some minor way. Imagine said person found a religion or a "take" on a religion (i.e. one of several competing or co-existing ways of thinking about things within a religion) that seemed to lend God's sanction to at least some minor aspects of that prejudice and said "It's not prejudice at all, it's God's plan that things be that way.". Would that hypothetical person perhaps be drawn to that? If so, then who is to say he or she isn't subconsciously not seeking the truth, but seeking a reaffirmation of what he or she already thinks that will comfort him or her?

    Let's even take things outside the realm of anything potentially prejudicial and just look about lifestyles. Let's say someone strongly felt that a certain culture, lifestyle, and way of looking at things was ideal and the best way possible, and everyone should conform to that. Now, that person finds a conservative religion that teaches that. That person could honestly be convinced that it is the truth, but subconsciously, isn't that wish fulfillment too, sometimes- a person seeking out what he or she wants to find?

    It's interesting to me that often conservative religions reflect the values of the specific culture that surrounds them. As an example that people in a mostly Roman Catholic forum won't mind too much as it is not about Roman Catholicism (So we can be specific without being too controversial), let's look at Non-Roman Catholic parishes and congregations in the American pre-Civil War and Civil War era south. Many of these churches or denominations taught that slavery was okay, and even God ordained. They had bible passages available to point out that even seemed to support their view. There were some major schisms in churches at the time of the Civil War. The Episcopal Church split in two, for example- although the southern dioceses immediately rejoined the northern church after the war was over (I am not sure there was ever too much pro-slavery sentiment in the EC, even in the south). Another church that split was the Baptists. Ever wonder why the Southern Baptist Convention is called the Southern Baptist Convention even though it's all over the country now (Including in the north)? It's origins are in a south, when it split with the Baptists in the north over slavery- it never got back together with the thing it split with after the Civil War, it just kept going and expanded northward. Now they reject slavery, I would imagine, but at the time...

    People are naturally attracted to religions that fit their existing values and culture. Sometimes, they don't even realize that. People can even hold views in their subconscious that they don't know they hold, and think they believe the opposite of, but then find a church that fits with what they believe someone deep in their brain even if they don't consciously acknowledge it, and say "Well, this is the truth, God is calling me to believe [whatever].". Really, though, that may still be coming from inside them at some level.

    Now, I say all that not to attack conservative Christians and Catholics, or even the notion of having a church where God's values reflect what you aspire to. That's another subject. Rather, my point is simply that for whatever reason, it's often assumed that progressive or liberal Catholics are doing that- finding a church that believes what they want it to and ignoring objective truth- when it fact the same could be said of some conservative or traditional Catholics.

    In fact, if we want to talk about ignoring objective truth- I would put people denying evolution and global climate change on that list. That's science, not religion. It's not an ideology, but an objective analysis of the facts about our physical world. You can take those truths and believe them and then go on to be either liberal or conservative religiously. But a lot of people deny what's right in front of them scientifically because they don't want to believe it, and then find some religion that'll agree with them that science isn't science. Of course, Catholics aren't as prone to that, because we have long had Popes who accept or allow for evolution, and our current Pope has released an encyclical about global climate change (Which is a high level of teaching), but there are some conservative or traditional Catholics who disagree with the science anyway, in spite of that (Not all, some conservatives Catholics will back the Pope because he is the Pope even if it cuts across against the grain of how they normally perceive the world- but I've certainly seen some fraction of conservative Catholics who'll go against the Pope to deny science).

    I mean, who is to say it is easier to condemn gays than to try to accept them? If you have a natural feeling of disgust or revolution about homosexuality, it might be harder to learn to accept them than to come out against them. People say liberals are choosing the easier path, but it can be a harder path than being a conservative for some people. It depends on the person.

    Of course, in a general sense, even if one could prove that progressive or liberal Catholicism and Christianity were "easier" and fulfilling people's wishes to a greater extent than their conservative counterparts, it wouldn't necessarily prove them wrong. Afterall, Jesus did say "My yoke is easy and my burden is light"...

    Also, I could see people saying "Hey, if this [conservative/liberal/whatever] stuff is true, I don't like it and I never will. That God would be immoral to me. Maybe I'm even going to hell for feeling that way. *But* why not enjoy the aspects of faith and religion that I do agree with and be the best person I can be here on earth according to the standards that I *do* agree with? If God is immoral in my understanding, then I will never follow him or her as he or she is. Maybe I should just hope for the best and go with that as my belief and follow the God who I hope is up there. There's even a chance I could be wrong about being wrong, and God will turn out to be exactly what I am hoping for.".

    I'm not sure I accept the premise of that. However, I would say that people of all ideologies can find aspects of a faith that they believe in and think are right, and like to participate in, and think make their lives better and make them better people, or are traditions in their family that they want to uphold, but also feel that faith is subject to a process of evolution as we grow to understand our world better collectively and build on what we learn from the past and the present, and clarify or correct doctrines as we go. There is also a role for saying that things apply differently in different times. Remember, one of the first documents of Vatican II starts with "In our time...".

    Sometimes there is nothing that reflects exactly what your believe to be right or true, but there is something that is close, or that you think will get there eventually, and sometimes people don't want to let seeking a perfection that doesn't yet exist get in the way of the good of them living within a faith community or identifying as part of a faith community that actually exists now on this earth. Sometimes they can even be part of the change they want to see.
     
  14. Shiloh Raven

    Shiloh Raven Don't let the Muggles get you down.

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    First of all, the only ill-will here is what has been brought into this forum by this thread.

    Secondly, you need to familiarize yourself with this forum's Statement of Purpose before continuing in your quest to question the faith of the Liberal Catholics in this forum.

    (1) For the purposes of this forum, a Catholic is anyone who has been baptized and/or confirmed in the Catholic Church and self-identifies as a Catholic. Do not state or imply that another poster who has identified himself or herself as Catholic, is not in reality truly a Catholic Christian because of their stated beliefs or practices. Do not state or imply that any member is under threat of excommunication for his or her stated beliefs.

    (2) Visitors are welcome to share and participate in discussions with us. However, visitors must do so respectfully. This forum does not exist as a place for visitors to come and debate contentiously over why they disagree with us. If you are are a visitor and you would like to learn more about our viewpoints or beliefs, or perhaps you just want to understand how we feel about a specific issue, then you are welcome. But this is not a place to teach us the errors of our ways.

    (3) House Rules
    All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the beliefs of this group will be considered off topic.

    And last but not least, it is insulting for you or for anyone else, Catholic or not, to come into this forum and insinuate that the Catholics in this forum are not part of true Catholicism. This forum is specifically for Liberal Catholics to come together and fellowship or discuss what is important to them or to discuss Catholicism. It is not for visitors who are not a member of this faith group to come into this forum and argue contentiously against the members of this forum. So please kindly take your indignation somewhere else, because it is uncalled for.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  15. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    You haven't answered the question. And quite frankly if the god this Jesuit worshipped, isn't the God that I described here:
    than it's questionable that he genuine healing, genuine gratitude, genuine forgiveness, but being the sinful man that I am and not there I can't say for sure, and I dare not judge a priest.
     
  16. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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  17. FreeinChrist

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