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Featured Islam A Critical Look at Islam From a Christian Perspective

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Tolkien R.R.J, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    A Critical Look at Islam From a Christian Perspective

    I am convinced that nothing more irksome and harmful could possibly be done to Mohammed or the Turks [Islam] (more than with all weapons) than the publication among Christians of their Koran. By reading it Christians may see what an utterly accursed, shameful, wretched book it is – full of lies, fables, and all abominations… Therefore my kind and Christian petition to you, my gracious and dear sirs, is: Be pleased to allow this book freely to circulate, without hindrance, for the glory of Christ, for the good of Christians, for the harm of the Turks, and to the disgust of the devil.”
    -A letter from Martin Luther to the city council of Basel on October 24, 1542


    Islam originated with the prophet Muhammad in 7th century Arabia. The word Islam means submission, a Muslim is one who submits to Allah. Islam is the worlds second largest religion and derives its teachings from the prophet Muhammad who received revelations from Allah [god] through the angel Gabriel. These revelations were compiled from memory by his followers into the Koran the very words of Allah and free from any flaw 39.27 . The Koran containes 114 chapters [or suras] and is about 2/3 the size of the new testament. During the month of Ramadan Muslims fast [see sura 2.185] from sunrise to sundown celebrating Muhammad receiving revelations. The hadiths are also seen as authoritative to the majority of Muslims that contain information on the teachings and doings of the prophet Muhammad. Friday is the holy day for Muslims the day Muhammad first preached. The holy sites are Mecca witch is called the mother city Sura 6.92-93 and only Muslims can enter mecca. Mecca is the city where Muhammad was born and also the place of the Ka'bah.



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    All Muslims are to go to Mecca for a week long pilgrimage 3.95-100 no meat allowed 5 1-3 and when they reach the ka'bah they march around it seven times 2.124-130 22.25-30 believing this is were Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice on the alter, and they also believe Abraham built it. Than they go to three pillars and throw stones believing they are stoning Satan and freeing themselves from sin for the year. Than they go to the cave they believe Mohammad received revelations from Gabriel. On the pilgrimage Muslims also go to the place they say Adam and Eve found each other outside of Eden, and the spot of the final sermon of Muhammad.


    Medina “the city of the prophet” is where the first mosque or meeting place was built. It is also where Muhammad first became a political and military leader. The dome of the rock in Jerusalem and the great mosque in Damascus witch has the tomb of Saladin and a shrine of what is said to be John the baptist are also holy sites to Muslims. Sharia or Islamic law, means “the way.” Muslims are divided into two major factions the Shi'ites and the Sunnis. The shi'ites are the party of Ali who believed Mohammad successor should come from his family and should have been Ali instead of Abu Bakr who was the first caliph [leader], 10% of Muslims are shi'ites. Sunnis are those who adhere to the Sunnah, the model of the prophet from the traditions of Mohammad found mostly in the hadiths.


    Five Pillars of Islam

    There are five pillars to the Islamic faith that unifies all Muslims.

    1-Declaration of faith “There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is Allah's messenger”
    2-Prayer. Five times a day they pray the first seven verses of the Koran the fatiha [opening] that must be cited in Arabic and directed towards mecca.

    In the name of god, the most beneficent, the most merciful
    All appreciation, gratefulness and thankfulness are to Allah alone, lord of the worlds
    The most beneficent, the most merciful
    The possessor of the day of recompense (i.e., on the last day of judgment)
    You we worship, and you we seek help
    Direct all of us to the straight path (i.e., to the way of Islam)
    The way of those on whom you have bestowed your grace, not the way of those who have earned your anger, nor of those who have lost their way and are astray


    3-Almsgiving to the poor. However this is done to gain merit not out of compassion. 2.5% of their income.
    4-Fasting during the month of Ramadan from sunrise to sundown.
    5-Pilgrimage [hajj] to mecca at least once in their lifetime.

    -Jihad or holy war is often called the sixth pillar of faith, jihad meaning “struggle.” And “Allah Akbar” simply means God is greater.


    Growth of Islam

    In the last 50 years Islam has increased by over 235% largely by birth rate to 1.2 billion people. Indonesia has 154 million Muslims and the Arab world a total of 140 million. 15% of Muslims live in middle east, most live in Asia. Islam is generally not spread by conversion but historically by fear and conquest. As Muslim forces moved into a territory often the citizens were given the choice of death or conversion and any Muslim who wanted to leave Islam faced death [more on this later]. Today Islam is spread by birth rates. As western countries reproduction drops below 2 per family, Islamic families around the world maintain 6 kids per family.

    Muslim Demographics



    My Objections to Islam- Muhammad Was a False Prophet


    Of course if Muhammad was a false prophet than Islam is a false religion. Islam does not show the signs of being gods revelations to man but of a 7th century Arabians creation.

    Islam - Was Muhammad a True Prophet of God?


    Islam Contradicts the Bible That the Koran Says is the Word of god

    The Bible and the Koran contradict each other on many very important issues. Yet the Koran says the bible was from God and would substantiate its claims. Allah promised Jesus his followers will have power over those that try to corrupt his words. Christians and Jews were to judge by their Torah and gospel 5:47 5 42-44 [many other verses as well ] in the 7th century. The years after Muhammad death Muslims realized the bible contradicted the Koran, but since the Koran was true in their eyes, that must of meant that the bible as been edited and corrupted.

    However this even goes against what the Koran says, that the gospel [NT] the Torah [OT] cannot be corrupted by man 28 48-49 6.114-115 18.27 10.64 15.9 [ verb nazzal same term used of Torah in 5.44 and injil [gospel] 5.47 also see 2.24 4.174 compare 5.44 5.46]. Muhammad himself believed in the Torah in his time and area Abu Dawud Book 33 no 4434. Muslims are said to ask the Jews and Christians to substantiate Muhammad as a prophet as they have god given writings of “guidance and light” [divine inspiration] 5.42-48 5.65-68 10.94 5.50 5.72. Christians in v 47 are to judge by what is reveled to them in the gospel in. The problem is that we have surviving manuscripts of entire bibles from not just Arabia, but all over. Not just the 7th century but hundreds of years earlier. showing the bible of the time of Muhammad when the Koran claims its gods word and would substantiate its message. Is the bible of today and thus the Koran contradicts itself and is false. It also brings up the question of why did god not protect his earlier scripture the Torah and gospel especially when the Koran says it did? if Christians did corrupt the bible, it is only because Allah willed it 2.253. Also why did Allah wait for the 7th century to have an accurate word of God if the bible has been corrupted?

    No Historical Evidence for Islam pre 7th Century Arabia

    The Koran is Gods eternal word in haven and does not change. The Koran claims that the prophets of old such as Moses, Adam, Jonah, Abraham, Jesus, John the Baptist etc all were Muslims and taught true Islam. The Koran says Jesus followers [who were Muslims] were teaching Islam 3.52-53 5.111 5.47 and those followers would be dominate until the day of resurrection [future] 3.55 61.14 and they would have victory over disbelievers.

    says O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant
    -Qu'ran 40 70-72


    Yet their is no record of them or of Islamic teachings. Where is their historical evidence for Islamic doctrine before Muhammad? Jesus says words in the Koran that are not recorded in the first 600 years of christian history by friends or enemies. Instead we see biblical and christian doctrine, manuscripts, bibles and writings throughout history up until Muhammad. The Koran says there is nothing new in Koran that was not taught to earlier generations 41.42-44 [many other passages] . Further the Koran says in many places that apostles went out into all nations of the earth, why is there no evidence for Islam in preislamic nations?

    The Death of Jesus on the Cross

    Forty Arabic words six hundred years after the events they describe, more than seven hundred and fifty miles fro Jerusalem....this is the entirety of the foundation upon witch the Islamic faith bases its denial of the crucifixion...When it comes to the cross, the Qur'an stands firmly and inallerabley against the mass of historical evidence.”
    -James White What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an Bethany House publishing


    Islam rejects the well established historical fact that Jesus died on the cross 4.157-158 that even liberal atheist scholars must admit to.

    "One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate.”
    -Bart Ehrman


    Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death”
    -Luke Timothy Johnson,#The Real Jesus#(San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123.

    [Jesus]“Death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.”
    -Gerd Lüdemann

    “slightest doubt about the fact of Jesus crucifixion under Pontius Pilate. That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.”
    -John Dominic Crossan

    "I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . ."
    -E. M. Blaiklock Professor of Classics Auckland University


    Another subject related to crucifixion in the Koran the practice is said to be around since the time of Joseph 7.124 12.41 20.71 26.49. There is no historical support for this view.
     
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  2. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    The Koran Says Muhammad was Foretold in the Bible

    Those who follow the Messenger, The unlettered Prophet, Whom they find mentioned In their own (Scriptures)—In the Law and the Gospel— ... It is they who will prosper. `
    Qur’an 7:157


    And remember, Jesus, The son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (Sent) to you, confirming The Law (which came) Before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger To come after me, Whose name shall be Ahmad [i.e. Muhammad]."
    `Qur’an 61:6


    If Muhammad was the prophet of Allah told of in the Koran gods eternal word, than surely he would be clearly written of in the Bible as the Koran and its prophet Muhammad claimed. Yet the Koran does not give one quote from the Bible where this is to be found. The Koran says Jesus spoke of his coming [Muhammad] and people should know this by reading the Bible 10.94 despite no recorded history of Jesus saying this. The early Muslims believed Jews and Christians were awaiting a prophet of Arabia see Ibn Kathir 4.178. But in fact he fails as a biblical prophet and contradicts the Bible both the old testament and the new, in many places. See

    Is Muhammed Prophesied in the Bible? James White vs Shabir Alley Zakir Hussain vs. James White: Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible?Answering Muslims: Zakir Hussain vs. James White: Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible? Shabir Ally vs. James White: "Muhammad in the Bible?" http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/08/shabir-ally-vs-james-white-muhammad-in.htmlJ james White: Is Muhammad in the Bible? Answering Muslims: James White: Is Muhammad in the Bible? Was Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible? Osama Abdallah vs. Anthony Anthony Rogers An In-Depth Refutation of Muhammad in the Bible Answering Muslims: An In-Depth Refutation of Muhammad in the Bible


    Scientific Objections and Islamic Superstition

    We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars—(for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (so) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming Fire, of piercing brightness.
    -Qur’an 37:6-10


    And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and We have made such (lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
    -Qur’an 67:5



    They ask thee concerning Dhu al Qarnayn. Say, “I will rehearse to you Something of his story.” Verily We established his power On earth, and We gave him The ways and the means To all ends. One (such) way he followed, Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, He found it set In a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People.
    -Qur'an 18:83-86



    Allah, Muhammad and the Koran teach many superstitious beliefs more constant with an 7th century Arabian than a revelation from God. For example, shadows are animals bowing down to god 16.48-54. Stars are missiles to hit demons with 37 6-10 67.5. Allah turned Jews into monkeys and pigs 2 62-65 5 59-60 7.116. The sun sets in a pool of murky water. [Arabic pagan belief]

    And the Sun Runs its course for a period determined For it; that is The decree of (Him), The exalted in Might, The All-Knowing. And the Moon—We have measured for it Mansions (to traverse) Till it returns Like the old (and withered) Lower part of a date stalk. It is not permitted To the Sun to catch up The Moon, nor can The Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along In (its own) orbit (According to Law)
    -Qur’an 36:38-40


    Muhammad said Satan can be in the upper part of peoples noses while they sleep causing them to wake up in the middle of the night so therefore people should blow their nose. Once satan urinated in a Muslims ear, causing him to not get up from bed to do his prayers. Satan farts so he does not hear certain prayers of Muslims. Crows crow, when they see a angel. Graying of a donkey means it has seen Satan. Yawning is from Satan. The sun rises between the two heads of Satan. A fever is from the heat of hell fire so treat it with water. Hell fire causes heat. Shooting stars were created to hit devils. Muhammad taught one wing on a fly has a disease, the other wing the cure. Adam was 90 feet tall. Allah transformed some Jews into apes because they did not follow the Sabbath 2.65-66. The Koran is not to be left open and unattended or a devil or jinn will come along and read it. And “if the Koran was wrapped in a skin and thrown into a fire it would not burn”al-tirmidui.652. Muhammad had concerning sanitary practices and if he sucked on your lips, you would not see hell.

    I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah: Water is brought for you from the well of Buda’ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual cloths and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.
    -Sunan Abu Dawud 67


    It was narrated that Jabir bin Abdullah said: “We came to a pond in which there was the carcass of a donkey, so we refrained from using the water until the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: ‘Water is not made impure by anything.’ Then we drank from it and gave it to our animals to drink, and we carried some with us.”
    -Sunan Ibn Majah 520—



    [Mua’wiya said]: I saw the prophet sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire).
    -Musnad Ahmad 16245


    It is related that Abu Hurayra said, "I never saw al-Hasan without my eyes overflowing with tears. That is because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and I found him in the mosque. He took my hand and I went along with him. He did not speak to me until we reached the market of Banu Qaynuqa. He walked around it and looked. Then he left and I left with him until we reached the mosque. He sat down and wrapped himself in his garment. Then he said, 'Where is the little one? Call the little one to me.' Hasan came running and jumped into his lap. Then he put his hand in his beard. Then the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, opened his mouth and put his tongue in his mouth. Then he said, O Allah, I love him, so love him and the one who loves him!'"
    (Al-Adabal-MufradAl-Bukhari,Number1183) Al-Adab al-Mufrad al-Bukhari 1183—



    Contradictions

    And when Allah said: O Isa,[Jesus] I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
    -Koran 3.55


    "So peace be upon me on the day I [Jesus] was born and the day of my death, and the day when I will be raised to life. "
    -Koran 19.33


    Jesus predicts his death and resurrection in 19.30-37 [also see 19.15] 3.55 [“Gathering you” means “I will cause you to die”] yet Muslims believe Jesus did not die on the cross, instead it was made to “appear to them” he died, instead he went to haven 4 157-158. This also brings up the issue of Islam explanation of Christianity. The bible says many false prophets will come after Jesus that will mislead many. So we would aspect a religion like Islam. But if Islam is true than Allah created the world biggest religion Christianity, by deceiving people into thinking Jesus died on the cross.

    How can a impersonal god such as the god of the Koran create personal beings? If Allah is impersonal and does not reveal himself, than how do we know that Allah reveled to Muhammad? Allah is the greatest of deceivers, how than can we be assured he was not deceiving Muhammad? Allah is all knowing yet in 18.22 he is unsure how many people are saved. Allah tells us not to sin, but created us imperfect.


    Islamic View of Woman

    Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Pickthall)


    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)

    And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
    -Qur’an 4:3


    Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" [Qur’an 4:24]. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
    -Sunan Abu Dawud 2150 Also see Sahih Muslim 3432 3384 3248 Sahih Muslim 3250


    The Islamic view of woman is hard for me to accept. Men are allowed to beat their wives and lock them in separate rooms 4.34. The reason woman are veiled is because the sight of them unveiled causes angels to flee according to Ibn Ishaq. Woman cant testify in court in most cases under Islamic law, their testimony is not worth that of a mans when they can. Even Aisha's did not count in her claimed adultery while marries to Muhammad. To be found guilty of rape four male witnesses are needed and if a woman brings a man to court and four wont testify, she goes to jail. In Pakistan 75% of woman in jail are their for claiming rape but not able to produce four male witnesses. Woman are a pollutant during their time period 2.222. Men can have four wives 4.3, Mohammad was allowed eleven by Allah.

    Muslim men can have sex with captures slaves and wives called muta. The Qur’an permits Muslims to have sex with their female captives and slaves (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). As the Muslim armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from God to guide them in their treatment of their female captives:

    The Believers must (Eventually) win through—Those who humble themselves In their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds Of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined To them in the marriage bond, Or (the captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (in their case) they are Free from blame.
    -Qur’an 23:1-6

    Not so those devoted To Prayer—Those who remain steadfast To their prayer; And those in whose wealth Is a recognized right For the (needy) who asks And him who is prevented (For some reason from asking); And those who hold To the truth of the Day Of Judgement; And those who fear The displeasure of their Lord—For their Lord’s displeasure Is the opposite of Peace And Tranquility—And those who guard Their chastity, Except with their wives And the (captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (then) they are not To be blamed. -Qur'an 70:22-30
    Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" [Qur’an 4:24]. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
    -Sunan Abu Dawud 2150
    [Also see Sahih Muslim 3432 Sahih Muslim 3371 Sahih Al-Bukhari 4138 Sahih Muslim 3384 Sahih Muslim 3248 Sahih Muslim 3250 [Sami Zaatari vs. David Wood: Is Muhammad a Good Role Model for Society?]


    Not surprising Study: 19 of 20 Worst Countries for Women Are Muslim-Majority Countries http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/10/study-19-of-20-worst-countries-for.html utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+answeringmuslims%2FynNl+%28Answering+Muslims%29
     
  3. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    Islam a Revelation From the Eternal God? Or a 7th Century Arabic Religion?

    For claiming to be a revelation from the eternal God who spoke through Moses, Adam, Jesus etc Islam sure seems to fit what one would expect if a 7th century Arabian [Muhammad] who used local sources and created a man made religion. Muhammad was familiar with local Gnostic, Jewish and Talmud, christian and pagan beliefs and customs. Islam is a combination of them all. In fact Muhammad's understanding of the Bible often came from local Gnostic and heretical groups and the Talmud leading to his false doctrine on many Biblical issues that he believed were true. For example Local heretical christian groups used the Arabic infancy gospel of Thomas a forgery written in local Arabian that dates to the 6th century, and the Koran contains material from that gospel like Jesus speaking as a baby 3.46 19 29-33 Jesus making clay birds come to life 5.110 [bible says his first miracle was in john 2.11 as adult] presented as truth. local Gnostics did not believe Jesus died on the cross and it was either Judas or that Jesus just appeared to die, this is material the koran says is true. From the Talmud comes the Koranic story of the two sons of Adam found in sura 5.27 5.31 and Abraham being thrown in the fire and god cools the flames sura 21 68-69. Sura 18.9-26 derives from apocrypha writings acta sunctorum. Jinn, the lunar calender came from pre Islamic Jewish sources. Sura 19 22-26 derives from the gospel of pseudo-Matthew. The legend of Mt Sinai suspension by god in 2.63,93 4.154 7.171 comes from Jewish folklore in the Babylonian Talmud. Some of the prophets such as Jonah, Elijah, and Issac, appear in Arabic of the Koran as translated from Greek rather than Semitic[witch would be expected if those were divinely reveled. Who brought revaluations to Muhammad Gabriel or the holy spirit? 2.91 16.104 26.193 53.5 is Gabriel the holy spirit? Comes from a misunderstanding of Luke 1.26.

    Nothing in the Qur'anic text actually addresses the essence of christian faith [trinity] even though it is painfully clear the author thought he was doing so.”
    -James White What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an Bethany House Publishers 2013


    The Koran teaches a false view of the Trinity in 5.116 that includes Mary Jesus mother in the trinity. The Koran confused Miriam the sister of Moses with Mary Jesus mother in 19.28. Also see [James White vs. Bassam Zawadi: Does the Qur'an Misrepresent the Trinity?
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...oes-quran.html ]

    Muhammad came from the Arabian pagan tribe the Quraysh based in Mecca witch was the center for trade and pilgrimage for pagans with its local pagan shrine the Ka'bah as the holiest site in pre Islamic Arbia . One of his local pagan tribes deities was “Allah” the pagan moon god who's symbol is the crescent moon. Muhammad took 7th century Arabian culture and elevated it to religious status mixed in with local Jewish and christian groups theology on the one true god. Five prayers a day, prayers towards mecca, the fast of Ramadan, circling the ka'bah, dietary laws, clothing, woman's veil, woman wear black, men wear white, virgins a gift in heaven, the story of the sun setting in mirkey water, even the word muslim were all done by pre Islamic pagans. Muhammad just brought his local tribes “Allah” the moon God to a higher status. See the religion of Islam by Dr. Ron Carlson

    BOOKSTORE – Christian Ministries International

    I think Islam as a whole pointed out by David Wood and why Muslims actually consume more during Ramadan, is man made. Muhammad made a religion for his 7th century fellow Arabs.


    Why do Muslims eat more when they're fasting than when they're not fasting? Why put a mask of piety on gluttony? The answer, I think, lies at the very heart of Islam. Islam does not make people more holy or spiritual. Rather, it gives them a religious framework for carrying their desires to perverse extremes. If a non-Muslim man hits a few clubs and somehow manages to have sex with ten women in one day, Islam will condemn him as a fornicator. But if this same man converts to Islam, marries four women, and takes six sex-slaves as his captives after a battle, he can be perfectly righteous before Allah, even if he has sex with ten women in one day. Likewise, if a man hires a prostitute and sleeps with her, he has sinned, according to Islam. But if the same man sets up a "temporary marriage" (a practice called "Muta"), he can hire the same prostitute, for the same amount of time, have sex with her in the exact same way, and bear no shame whatsoever in the Muslim community. If a psychopath goes on a killing spree, brutally murdering men, women, and children, he is surely going to hell, according to Islam—unless, of course, he is killing men, women, and children in a terrorist attack for the sake of Allah, in which case his violent massacre will earn him a one-way ticket to Paradise. Even according to Muslim sources, the tribes of Mecca were violent, lascivious, and gluttonous. Muhammad didn't change their behavior by forcing them to convert to Islam. He simply made their violence, lasciviousness, and gluttony pleasing to Allah. Should we be surprised that Ramadan is a month-long feast that Muslims call "fasting"?
    -David Wood Why do Muslims eat More During Ramadan


    Islamic View of Haven

    Much of the Koranic version of heaven comes from the Zorastriods of Persia- not from christian and Jewish sources of haven as claimed. They also seem very human rather than divine. “High bosomed maidens” for companions in haven 78 31-33 Young boy servers who will seem like sprinkled pears 76 15-17 young boys will be there as waiters as fine as virgin pearls 52 22-31 bashful virgins 38.47-52 virgins and dark eyed virgins in heaven 55 53-67 53 -78 56 17-33 recline in couches and wed black eyed whores 52 15-22 37.37-50 36.55-60. In haven their are “voluptuous woman” 78.31 woman created virgins 56.36 some things forbidden in Koran like liberal use of wine, are allowed in haven.

    The Koran, Violence, Jihad, and non Muslims

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. And those Jews (who came to you) say (as did some Jews who lived before): "Ezra (‘Uzayr) is God's son"; and (as a general assertion) the Christians say: "The Messiah is God's son. " Such are merely their verbal assertions in imitation of the utterances of some unbelievers who preceded them. May God destroy them! How can they be turned away from the truth and make such assertions?
    -Koran 9.29-30


    Islam is perhaps most well known among non Muslims for its violence and violence committed in the name of Islam despite western liberalism attempts to hide it. Often 5.32 is used to try and convince us Islam is peaceful. However even here according to the Koran this is a a teaching to the children of Israel, not Muslims. 2.62 another passage, refers to Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. Islam is known as the religion of the sword. The Saudi Arabia flag is a Islamic sword. Of course if Allah is violent or commands his followers to be, that does not disprove Islam in any way, it just proves god is violent or thinks it justified in certain circumstances. But just to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off the PC crown here are some Koranic passages justifying violence.

    9.38-39 those who don't fight for Islam will be punished. The best deed a Muslim can perform is armed struggle [jihad]. Paradise is a reward for fighting for Allah 9.111. Muslims are to fight till Allah alone is worshiped 2.193. God allows Muslims to be killed in battle to test there faith 3.152-154 3.166. It is no concern to believers if god kills non believers in battle 3.126-131 Fight those who believe not in Allah 9:29. Muslims were created to help Muhammad in war 9.40 Allah sends thunderbolts at who he chooses 13.12-13. Muslims cannot enter paradise until you proven in battle your a true believer 3.140-144 those that fight [in battle] for Islam in war receive heaven, hell for those that dont 48.16-20 those that die in battle for islam will go to paradise 47 4-6 those that die in battle will be forgiven all there sins, and will go to heaven 3.195 promised reward for those that fight in battle 4.95-97 98-101 3.169-172 9.87-90 4.74 9.89 die in jihad guarantee paradise 9.111. True believers will beg to go to war 9.43-47 believers will kill, and be killed for the cause of god 9.111 Muhammad was called to rouse believers to fight 8.62-66 go to war well armed or ill equipped to march and fight for the cause of Allah 9.41. Beheading comes from 8.9 12-13 Allah sent angels to behead the enemies of Islam. Muslims are told to behead your enemies 47.4. Armed men during prayer, believers must always be on guard 4.102. those that make war against allah or Muhammad shall be slain or crucified 5.33. if anyone thinks god will not give victory to Muhammad they should hang themselves 22.15-16.

    Unbelievers

    So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    -Koran 9.5


    O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
    -Qur’an 9:123


    Muhammad said “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah.”
    -Sahih Muslim 33


    Islam is only religion in world that has mandate violence against non believers. Unbelievers are enemies 4.101 fight against them until idolatry is no more and gods religion reigns supreme 2.192-93. Muhammad is to make war with nonbelievers and deal sternly with them 66.9. large numbers of mass killings by Allah towards unbelievers in Koran are found. Allah tells Muhammad not to pray for enemies 9.80 9.84. No forgiveness for those who reject allah and his prophet 9.80. Muslims are the best of people 3.110 Jews and christian are the worse of creatures 98.6

    O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
    -Qur’an 5:51



    God tells Muhammad to make war on unbelievers and hypocrites and to deal rigorously with them 9.73-74make war on infidels who who live around you 9.123 Make war on idolaters until Islam reins supreme 8.29-40 dont let unbelievers think they will ever get away, muster against them all men and Calvary strike terror into the enemies of god 8.57-60 Make war with unbelievers 9.1-13 unless they join the faith- fight against unbelievers who have been given scripture and do not believe [Jews Christians] until they pay tribute and are subdued 9.29-31. “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them” 47.4. It is evil to be friends with unbelievers 5 80-82. Jews Christians are perverse 9.29-30

    Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.
    -Qur’an 98:6


    So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them
    -Koran: 47.4


    It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattab that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
    -Sahih Muslim 4366




    What if If Muslims do not Fight?

    Fighting is obligated for believers much as they dislike it 2.216. You cannot enter paradise until you proven in battle your a true believer 3.140-144. Muslims were created to help Muhammad in war 9.40.Those that fight [in battle] for Islam in war receive heaven, hell for those that dont 48.16-20. a woeful scourge falls on Arabs who do not fight in war 9.87-90 9.38-39 . Muslims are to put to death deserter wherever you find them 4 87-90. Those that dont fight in battle for god are not equal to those that do 4.95 Those that dont fight that are able, are unclean and will be punished in hell 9.94-96. God will strike off the heads and fingertips of unbelievers if any believer turns his back to infidels on the march he will receive wrath from god and hell fire 8.15-16. Believers who fight in war for Islam are not to be friends with those who have yet to join in war 8.70-75. Muslims who fight for god are held higher by god than others and are promised paradise 9.20-22.

     
  4. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    Jihad

    As for killing.... Allah says we should decapitate,we should amputate the limbs, we should mutilate.... we are fighting a religious war....we are fighting Christians”
    -Boko Haram leader Abubakar Shekau dec 2013

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment
    -Koran 5.33

    There are three stages in Islam, when they are outnumbered and not in power [such as in the west] they can legitimize peacefulness and tolerance 1.09 and when Muslims feel threaten they can seek peace, they can pretend to be peaceful outwardly, but not inwardly 3.28. Than when they gain power there is defensive jihad 22 39-40. Lastly when they have the advantage and are in power [see Muslim nations for examples] they are on offensive expansionist Jihad sura 9.39. When Islam has the upper hand such as Muhammad had after he became leader of Medina, they are to never ask for peace 47.35. However there are four kinds of jihad in Islam.

    • Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bil qalb/nafs) is concerned with combating “evil” (i.e. un-Islamic) desires and the devil in the attempt to escape his persuasion to evil. In other words it is the “internal” jihad.
    • Jihad by the tongue/pen (jihad bil lisan/qallam) is concerned with spreading the word of Islam with one’s tongue or writing and the verbal (or written) defence of Islam.
    • Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to choosing to do what is right and to combat injustice and what is wrong in Islamic terms with action, e.g. protest, demanding “special consideration” etc. Some writers see this “hand-jihad” as subsuming the sword-jihad (below{1}).
    • Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabili Allahi ([armed] fighting in the way of Allah, or holy war), this is the most common usage by Salafi and Wahhabi Muslims and the most ancient. For example, Sahih Bukhari (the pre-eminent Hadith collection of Sunni Islam) has almost 200 references to jihad and 98% (~196) of them refer to it in the sense of armed warfare against non-Muslims. 98% of his hadith relating to jihad refer to sword jihad “Asbab al-Nuzul.” Ali ibn Ahmad al-Wahidi (Trans. Mokrane Guezzou), 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan.
    Jihad of the sword” that has been the primary understanding of jihad in Islamic history and jurisprudence is beyond doubt”.“when the word jihad occurs in the koran without any modifier or with the typical modifier “in the cause of allah” it invariably refers to armed combat on behalf of islam. It is often linked with the word qital in the context of dealing with unbelievers...“Muhammad himself was engaged regularly in a military jihad and commanded his followers to engage in it as well”.”
    -Dr Mateen Elass. Understanding the koran a quick christian guide to the Muslim holy book

    Thus whilst jihad is not only warfare the vast majority of it is. This has been the historical actions and beliefs of Muslims from the time of Muhammad before western liberalism. In the century after Muhammad died with Abu Bakr as leader, Islam spread through expansionist jihad across north Africa up to Spain across Asia and India.

    expansion jihad clearly understood by Muslims at the time of Muhammad death in one century Islam expanded from a limited religion of the Arabian peninsula to a empire across N africa up to spain in west and across asia and india in east”
    -Dr Mateen Elass Understanding the koran a quick christian guide to the Muslim holy book Dr Mateen Elass.

    Indeed, the reward in God's book for jihad in God's path is something for which a Muslim should love to be singled out, by which God saved [people] from humiliation, and through which He has bestowed nobility in this world and the next. (Tabari 11:80 / 2083—84)
    -Abu Bakr

    In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.
    -Ibn Khaldun The Muqaddimah: an Introduction to History (abridged), trans. Franz Rosenthal, Princeton UP, 1967, p.183)


    The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it."
    - Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50: Narrated Anas bin Malik:


    Apostasy

    Ibn Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.”
    -Al-Bukhary (number 6922)

    Abd-Allah ibn Masood said: The Messenger of Allah said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah, except in one of three cases: a soul (in case of murder); a married person who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and separates from the main body of Muslims.”
    -Sahih Al Bukhary number 6484 and Sahih Muslim number 1676
     
  5. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    Waw, lots of info.
     
  6. fschmidt

    fschmidt Regular Member

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    I follow the Old Testament. I don't believe all of Islam either but I attend mosque and I actively support Islam because, unlike modern Christianity, they actively support morality. If Christians actually did what Jesus said in the first 3 gospels, I would have a lot more sympathy for them. But they don't, so it seems to me that Muslims are closer to God than most Christians are (traditional Anabaptists being the one exception).
     
  7. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    Than we have very different views of who god is. But how do you justify saying Muslims are more similar to the teachings of Jesus [in the first 3 gospels or any of the NT] than Christians? also I would suggest do not follow Christians, but Christ. Besides the morality of Islam is very much different than the morality of Christ.
     
  8. fschmidt

    fschmidt Regular Member

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    Jesus says basically what is found in the Old Testament and Quran. For example, do not commit adultery. Yet Christians seem to have much less of an issue with adultery than Muslims do.

    How do they differ?
     
  9. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    I have to ask where you get your information from? I agree Jesus does say basically what is in the OT, he is the God of the OT, he is in the OT many places in human form. But Islam and the Koran do not teach consistency with the OT despite the claims of Muslims. That is why they must claim our bibles have been corrupted [something Muhammad did not believe].

    Islam - Was Muhammad a True Prophet of God?
    Islam - A Comparison of the Biblical God vs Allah and Theological Objections to Islam
     
  10. fschmidt

    fschmidt Regular Member

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    But this has nothing to do with your previous assertion that "the morality of Islam is very much different than the morality of Christ".
     
  11. Tolkien R.R.J

    Tolkien R.R.J Well-Known Member

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    How does it not? it shows how very different the morality is between the two. How very different God is the two views.
     
  12. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Islam is a horrible. If Islam represents some kind of pinnacle of morality (somehow...!), than I will thank God that Christianity cannot be reduced to a purely moral system, as Islam may be by its extremely simple and externalized rules, which are themselves against the words of Jesus Christ Who told us not to pray as hypocrites do, who love to be seen by men in their prayers (Matthew 6:5), nor to make a show of our fasting so as to be recognized to be fasting (Matthew 6:16). Islam does both in spades, and the religious establishment in the largely forced-to-be-Muslim world even gets the law involved in sending people to jail during Ramadan for their lack of participation in their phony baloney 'fast' (you know, the one where they overeat to the point of having to go to the hospital), even in relatively liberal countries like Morocco and Tunisia.

    What great 'morality' this religion has foisted upon the world. No thank you.
     
  13. fschmidt

    fschmidt Regular Member

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    Most Christians do no regular prayers and no fasting. That is worse. I recently learned that Catholics used to really fast for lent, but this was given up. Islam may not be a pinnacle of morality but modern Christianity is close to a pinnacle of immorality. (I don't know anything about Coptic Christianity, so I can't comment on that.)
     
  14. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I can't speak for what most Christians do or don't do, as most aren't members of my Church, but if your idea of morality is who fasts the most, then Coptic Orthodox and Ethiopian/Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox are the most moral people on the planet, as we both fast over 200 days per year...and it's real fasting, as in not eating until the day is over (the liturgical day ends with the Compline/retiring prayer), and the one meal has to be small and usually vegan (some shorter fasts allow for fish, but not shellfish or the others disallowed by the Bible; I can't remember which ones, because I don't eat fish anyway). And you have to do it unless you are old, pregnant, or sick, or have other circumstances (e.g., since I am the only Orthodox Christian in my family, I am not obliged to fast if I am visiting family, so as to not force upon them my fasting and make a show of it, which is against the Holy Bible; I was told to just order a salad if we go out to eat somewhere and not say anything about it). At my old parish, there was a big sign above the door outlining the rules for communion in Arabic and English, one of which said "The believer participates in all seven fasts of the Church year", meaning that if you did not do so, you were breaking one of the rules for communion and would not be communed.

    Also, we pray 7 times a day out of the Agpeya (Coptic book of the hours), with prostrations (see video below), and chant the Psalms as well as doxologies, Gospel readings, etc.


    This was filmed at a monastery in Egypt, but we do the same thing in our own churches and in our homes, which are supposed to imitate the monasteries. As Pope Shenouda III put it "Every home a monastery, and every believer a monk".

    All these things make ignorant Muslims think we've 'stolen' these practices from them, but the Agpeya (for instance) dates back to the 5th century (before Muhammad, obviously), and even that is just the codification of earlier monastic practices. So too we can consider the chanting of the Gospels, which if you go to any video on e.g. YouTube is going to have a bunch of Muslims and Western Christians who have just never heard the Gospel chanted (especially in Arabic, as we've had to do in the Coptic Orthodox Church since the 13th century or so thanks to the dominance of the Arabic language after the conquest by 'Amr Ibn Al 'As and his army in the 640s) saying "Hey, this sounds just like the Qur'an!", without realizing that we were doing this first. Only the language changed (and then only in some places; there were preexisting Christian Arabs since the beginning, as they are specifically mentioned as one of the peoples present at Pentecost; even going by the historical record outside of the Bible we can talk about the Christian Arabs of the Lakhmid kingdom of Al Hira, near what is now Kufa in Iraq, which was majority Christian by the 6th century, if not earlier).

    This doesn't relate to Copts specifically since we don't use this same musical system, but the invading Arabs didn't have their own codified musical system, so they stole the one used by the Syriac people who predominated in the Middle East before the rise of Islam. The Arabic maqamat are just the Syriac Qinto (modes) with Arabic names, and the Syriac one dates back to at least the 4th century, in the Syriac treasury of chants known as the Beth Gazo. Here is a video of the Syriac scales, but with their Arabic names to show how they line up exactly:



    Here's a professional recording of the Gospel of John (ch. 1) as chanted in Arabic according to the Coptic Orthodox Church, which apparently sounds "just like the Qur'an" to people who don't know Arabic (this is similar to how people might chant it in a non-liturgical setting, with a simple kind of melody, or if they just don't have strong voices or are only learning how to chant), or Muslims who want to claim that everyone imitates them:



    And here's the Gospel as we actually chant it in the Coptic Orthodox Church during liturgies. I present it here after the other one because there are bits in it that are in Greek, and others that are in Coptic, and yet you can hear that they are all chanted in the same style. So this is the Coptic style, even if it is in Arabic or Greek. It is not from the Arabs just because the language is. (And there were preexisting contacts between the Coptic people and Christian Arabs dating back to at least the fifth century anyway; the earliest example of Garshuni, which is Arabic written in Syriac characters, comes from around that time and was found in a monastery in Egypt known as Deir El Siryani, or "The Monastery of the Syrians/Syriac people", which was founded by monks from Mesopotamia.)



    Given all the things we already do, which we have preserved from our fathers who have nothing to do with Islam or Muhammad or any of that, I really don't see the attraction to Islam at all. Maybe if I was coming from Western Christianity which itself lacks a lot of this stuff I would, but I'm not so I don't. To the Eastern Christians (and not just Copts, but also the Greek Arabs in places like Palestine or Lebanon, and to the Armenians, and the Syriac Orthodox, and so on), Islam just seems like a cheap and obvious knock off of what we already do, and have been doing since long before Muhammad or his book or his god ever existed.
     
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  15. fschmidt

    fschmidt Regular Member

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    Who cares who is imitating who as long as you are doing similar things? It sounds like your Christianity and Islam have a lot in common. I live in America, today's Sodom and Gomorrah, and here Christianity and Satanism have a lot in common. So that is my perspective.
     
  16. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    That's because America is a masonic country and never was Christian (and by extension, allied with Zionism as well). You're right in recognizing Satan's work though. How you mistake that for Christianity however is beyond me. I'd go so far in saying that it engages in the ritualistic killing of Christians. Even the supposed "heroic" acts of America. Did you know Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the largest Christian cities of Japan? And who suffers from all of these conflicts in Palestine and the rest of the Middle East? Christians, just as much as Muslims.
     
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  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I don't care because I'm not the one making the claim in the first place. We'd still be doing all the same things even if no one claimed that, as we were already doing before Islam ever existed. That's the point. But it is good to be able to show these things when ignorant Muslims or western Christians make such claims. And also I care about the truth.

    No. Islam does not worship God. Even if they fasted 365 days a year and prayed 24 hours a day, Islam would still not be worshiping God. A ton of very public worship and false piety in service of a false god has nothing to do with Christianity, which is the true religion, whether a million or zero people follow it. This is why we don't shout that the sky is falling when more people come out as atheists in the West, because we're already used to being 10% or less in the 'homelands' (I'm not Egyptian, so they're not my homelands, but in places like Egypt, Sudan, and Libya), and our churches are actually growing in the West as people seek authentic and historically grounded Christian worship and theology.

    I hear you. I also live in America, and yeah, there are a lot of things I don't approve of and I know that God does not approve of. I guess I just look at it differently. To me it means we have a lot of work to do. It's not a reason to throw up our hands in disgust, and it's certainly not a reason to praise the religion of the devil that came with the Arabs as though that is a salvific and true alternative to anything. The atheist is not following God, and the Muslim is not following God, because it is not possible to follow God but by following Jesus Christ Whom He has sent. Christ is the only way, and Islam does not have Him just because Muhammad in his delusions created this fake Islamic supporting character named 'Isa and said that this was Jesus. Muhammad is wrong. (Again.)
     
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  18. straykat

    straykat Well-Known Member

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    I think Muslims have an idea of the true God. He's just remote. Even by their own standards, it's not the personal God of Abraham. And no one else will ever truly
    teach this personal aspect of God, because he is only known through his Word, who is Christ.
     
  19. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    That's a good way to put it, Straykat, but that's also true of basically everyone. Christ is, after all, the Light who gives light to every man that comes into the world, so we should thank Him that we all have at least some concept of God. Some choose to follow after other gods, though. This is why it really rubs me the wrong way when other churches like the RCC or whoever hold interfaith prayer meetings or say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God or whatever. Their standard seems to be "Do they have some idea of God", rather than "Do they have the right idea of God".

    Even the atheist has some idea of God (namely that He doesn't exist). That's not good enough to say that they are actually worshiping the one true God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I know you didn't say that to begin with, but there is a very popular strain of Christianity out there that says essentially that since there is only one God to begin with, everyone who claims to worship one God must therefore be worshiping the same God. That's not true in my communion, and as far as I know it is not true in yours either. If you or anyone else is curious, please the following very interesting interview with Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon (I believe he's Antiochian Orthodox) from AFR: Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon on Popular Monotheism (spoiler: it's wrong! :))

    It is good to build on what Islam or any other religion may get right about God (cf. St. Justin Martyr's "seeds of the Word"), but some people seem to take it too far and say that whatever non-Christians may have is good enough as it is. Nope. Whatever is not planted by the Father will be torn out at its roots, and so Islam will fall just like any other Christ-denying heresy. May it come quickly.
     
  20. fschmidt

    fschmidt Regular Member

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    I am talking about behavior, not belief. Modern Christianity has managed to turn their religion into an excuse to do evil. Obviously this is not what Christianity was originally about, but it is what Christianity has been turned into.
     
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