A Conversation with an "Eastern Orthodox"

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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Ben:
Immortality is eternal life; the righteous receive life, the unrighteous are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is "The Second Death".
In no way can "second death" be considered "life".


Quoted by Rightglory:
However they are not the same state.
In your above state you are equating eternal life with immortality. That is a physical state.
Then you make a switch and say that unrighteous are cast into the Lake of Fire, the second death. If that is a physcial death, then how can a made die twice physically? If it is a spiritual death, how can a physically dead person have anything spiritual. It goes right back to the basic theology that you have. You do not give life to mankind. You have a pile of dust being cast into the Lake of Fire. And I don't know how that could be unrighteous either.
Hi, "Rightglory". All we have, is what Scripture says.

Those who do not belong to Jesus when they die, are not raised in the "First Resurrection". But they ARE raised in the SECOND resurrection, after the "1000-year-reign". And those found unwritten in the Book of Life, are cast into the Lake of Fire --- which is the second death. These are not Ben's words, but John's.
Quoted by Ben:
"Made alive", is opposed to "dead in sins"; those who are dead, are not alive.
Quoted by RG:
True, because it is referencing the fall, the condemnation of Adam, death. We, mankind is all dead. We will die and die permanently, EXCEPT that Christ raised all mankind to life. Look at it this way, you want only some men to believe. But you have dead men believing, but even in this life, with a mortal state, if a man believed, it is only good for the time he is physically alive. He will die and return to dust. Gen 3:19. Unless you have a way to get rid of the judgement against mankind, all the rest of your theology is moot, meaningless.

Your perception of "all will be made alive in Christ", puzzles me; let's do a search on "made alive":

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


In 1Cor15, "made alive" is "in Christ".
In Eph2 "made alive" is "through faith".
In Col2 "made alive" is also "forgiven of all sins".
In 1Pet2 "made alive" is by the Holy Spirit.

There is no way that "in Christ" and "through faith" and "forgiven-sins" and "Holy Spirit", applies to unbelievers. On what grounds do you perceive that "all are made alive, believers or not"?
 

Ben johnson

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Quoted by RG:
We also do not inherit a sin nature. It is theologically incorrect, but then it matters not in your theology so far. We are born with a fallen nature which is the cause of our sin. We sin because we are dead. We do not sin because we are sinners.
If you sincerely believe that man is punished for his sins, then you need to get life into that man, including unbelievers. In your theology, a person who stays in the nature of Adam, mortal, is not being punished for his sins, but the single sin of one man, Adam. That is why he will never be judged again. He is already judged, based on Adam, dead, permanently, dust to dust.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. Rom5:14 very clearly asserts that we inherit a nature of sin and rebellion from Adam. True we are sinners because we sin (not vice-versa), but we cannot AVOID sin, apart from Christ's grace.
Quote:
Christ reversed the fall, brought life where ONLY death existed. Man cannot stand before God and be judged unless he has life. A physical existance, he cannot be dust by the condemnation of Adam. This is why Christ is the Second Adam. He eliminated Adam and put mankind back to life, including the universe itself.
You're gonna hafta find some Scriptural support for making "made-alive", apply to "non-believers". See the quotes above; "made-alive" involves believing attributes.
Quoted by Ben:
By saying "justification came to all", it reflects conditionality. Justification CAME, but they only are justified who believe and receive it. Verse 17 is clear.

Quoted by RG:
Yes, clear that there is an equation between Adam and Christ. If you think only believers are justified by Christ's Death, then what about the all of Adam. Not all obvious were condemned to death, only that death reigned in some. The same that would be given life by Christ. Then, back to your conumdrum, you have all others living eternally already, do you know of any person who has not died, and is still living several thousands of years old? Or, man is created mortal, and we die a natural death and that is the end of us as a human being, since you have Christ giving life to only some. Who in these groups goes to hell. Those that do not exist after death, or some of those Christ died for and rasied to life?
You're equating the "second resurrection", to "immortality"; all of Scripture asserts "immortality is the reward of the righteous". Believers.
Quoted by Ben:
Verse 23 says "those who are Christ's at His return". That is the "ALL". All IN CHRIST shall be made alive."
Made-alive does not happen to unbelievers; not in this life, not in the next...


Quoted by RG:
Vs 23 does not say that at all. All it says is that Christ, who is the first born of the dead, (all Dead) the first fruits are those that are dead before He comes, then those who are His that are still living in that day. What is the last enemy, Death. But in your theology it means ONLY death for some human beings. You have left untold millions in the grave. they will not rise from the dead, they are not immortal as you state, so who is in hell? Who stands in judgement as an unbeliever.
The dead in Christ are raised, then we who are alive (in Christ) and remain will be caught up with Jesus in the clouds. There's no way to disconnect 1Cor15:22 ("in Christ all shall be made alive") from verse 23 ("those who are Christ's at His return...").
Quoted by Ben:
The call is to all men; the call overcomes depravity sufficiently that man can believe and become "made alive", by Jesus-in-him.

Quoted by RG:
the sufficiently is that man is alive. He has life, He can exercise that will, that faith, that Image of God within Him with the call He receives from God. If He responds, He will be regenerated spiritually, a spirtual union is possible because he, as all human beings, have life. The total depravity verses that Calvinsts use is describing a man without Christ ever coming into this world. That is what this world would be like for the short life time of each individual. Maybe death, dust to dust, would be much better, if that be the case. But, actually Christ came into this World, He is the Light of the World. The Light puts out the Darkness, that depravity that would exist if He never came into history to redeem His created order. This is why Calvinists have the same problem. They bypass the fall actually, because they bypasss the Incarnation which is what corrected the fall. The fall is not guilt and sin of Adam, but the judgement of death against mankind. We sin on our own, because we possess a fallen nature. Adam will speak for his own sins, and we will answer for ours. In your theology, when man does not have life, those men do not answer for there sins. They have already been condemned, death through Adam. they remain that way, permanently unless you permit Christ to give them life.
We may be at an "impass"; unless you can explain how "unbelievers can be 'IN CHRIST' ", I cannot see a way that an unbeliever is "Made alive"; that's a spiritual concept.
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Ben:
"By grace through faith" is implied; it's supposed to be already understood, but he states it just to be clear.

Quoted by RG:
Ben, if that was the ONLY way, it would not need to be already understood. But the fact, there are two distinct salvations being referenced. One for mankind, so that there can be the "whosoever that believes". Without this salvation by Grace upon mankind, you cannot have any believers whatsoever.
TWO salvations? Jesus provided "salvation from sin" --- immortality. What is the OTHER salvation, and who provided it?
Quoted by Ben:
There is no "conundrum". Men are spiritually "dead", because they are in sin; they can believe in Christ, which makes them spiritually "alive".

Quoted by RG:
Yes, which all spiritual separation is called death, it is the second death. But man must be physically alive, otherwise there was no need for Christ. Man could always be restored to a spiritual existance with God in this life. Man recieves spiritual life upon repentance, baptism, which is called regeneration. God is doing, generating anew the union He created all men to have with Him. We sin because we are physcially dead. It is that mortal nature that causes us to be prolific sinners.
Men were not physically alive before Jesus died??? :scratch:
Quoted by Ben:
This is the biggest fallacy of Calvinism --- thinking that spiritually dead men CANNOT BELIEVE. They can.

Quoted by RG:
ONLY becasue they already have physical life, a guranteed eternal existance that man had been created for and now God can have union with that man for an eternity. The Calvinist jump way ahead and use "regeneration" of our spiritual union as physical restoration or eternal life. At least they categorically state that God left most of humanity under Adam. They also have the conumdrum that how can a pile of dust be raised to life to stand judgement and furthermore, endure hell? How does this person become alive. you both want it to be by faith, a spiritual aspect, not a physcial aspect. If God can indeed raise man without Christ, what is Christ needed for ONLY the resurrection of believers. Can you answer that conumdrum?
I see nothing of "Jesus dying on the Cross so that all men will have PHYSICAL life". What did they have before? They lived, and died; after Jesus, they lived and died.
Quoted by Ben:
We possess immortality as we posses Jesus --- "He who HAS the Son, HAS the eternal life" (1Jn5:12-13) But we are not actually immortal until He returns.

Quoted by RG:
Ok, in understanding your theology so far, but see my last remark. You have most of humanity still perishable, still dead and in the grave. Remember that point.
I "have", nothing. We're discussing what Scripture "has".
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Ben:
Not "two comings"; but "two resurrections". Do you not believe in two resurrections? Then please tell me how you read Rev20.

Quoted by RG:
I have already explained this to you several times but you are not following my theology. I believe in two resurrections as I believe in two deaths.
They align with each other. There is a spiritual death. This is the unbeliever who is in spiritual death, not IN Christ. When we are baptised, Rom 6:3-5, we are regenerated, into a spiritual union, this is the Spiritual resurrection...
Sorry, the "baptism" spoken of in Rom6:3, has nothing to do with water.

Five words are used interchangeably, and we cannot inject a "water-topic":
1. Died
2. Crucified
3. Buried
4. Immersed
5. UNITED

We are "immersed into Christ", we are not "immersed into water"; just like we are "united with Christ", we are not "united with water".

Besides --- those in Acts10:47 had received the Holy Spirit WITHOUT waterbaptism. Can we deny that "regeneration, is separate from waterbaptism"?

(Also, those in Acts8:14-16 HAD been waterbaptized but had NOT received the Spirit [thus no way they could have been "regenerated"]. Clearly the "spiritual union" is separate from "waterbaptism".)
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by RG:
When we are IN Christ, we shall reign with HIM. We, those who are IN Christ are reigning with HIM right now. We do not wait for some other kingdom surely not an earthly Kingdom as some propose.
those unbelievers who never experienced the first resurrection, never became believers, will not be raised until the last day in the general, physical resurrection. Adam sinned, we became mortal, Christ arose, we all became immortal. We are all raised because Christ arose from the dead, He raised our consubstantial, fallen natures from death to life, from mortal to immortal.
You cited Rom6; verse 4 speaks of "being united in Christ's resurrection".

...you would have all men united in His resurrection, regardless of unbelief and sin.
Quoted by Ben:
The "Last Trumpet", is "the first resurrection". One trumpet --- the same one in Matt24:31, 1Thess4:17, 1Cor15:52.

Quoted by RG:
Hardly, you just used Rev 20 where you want the first resurrection a long time before the second. What is the purpose of your first resurrection. How is it empowed.
("empowered"?) and who is it for then, if not the righteous? If so, then what is the second resurrection for. Rev 20 says all the dead are raised. All are standing in judgement, what is the second resurrection after that?
The two resurrections are 1000 years apart...
Quoted by Ben:
Once --- at "the last trumpet". Seems to be the seventh trumpet in Rev11:15.

Quoted by RG:
I agree with that, but the last trump is the end of temporal time. Eternity follows. So you need to explain this sequence much better as you have me so confused on your theology I cannot follow it.
The "last trumpet", is the end of the Tribulation; and the beginning of the Thousand Year Reign.
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Ben:
The unrighteous are raised from the dead, but they receive "The Second Death". The words "death" and "immortal" are not compatible.

Quoted by RG:
I know, that is what makes your theology so confusing. Now, you say the unrighteous are risen from the dead, given life. Just how does God do that, when it required Christ to raise believers from the dead. Or Christ has no bearing whatsoever on mankind relative to physical existance?
Now, if you are stating that the unrightous are not alive, physically as you stated before, but only spiritiually, then why are they not in Christ? If the Second death is a spiritual death, how can a person die twice the same way?
The unrighteous are not alive spiritually; they have "died in their sins". When resurrected physically, their spirits remain dead; and they are cast into Gehenna.
Quoted by RG:
My statement....Am I to assume that a human being can actually reject Christ's birth (Incarnation), death and resurrection as events and the results of those events? If so, just how do you formulate such a theology?
Your response....
As Rom10 says, "If you believe God raised Jesus from the dead you shall be saved."

This is rejecting a belief . I'm asking how can a person reject the event. Can your reject your own birth? It is a physical event, can you reject it, can you change it, can you even deny it. That is what I am asking.

My comment:....But what is raised mean to you. Is it physical or spiritual? You seem to be on the spiritual wavelength, so to be consistant here, what is this resurrection?
Since you also say it is not immortal, what state are they actually in. Are are there more that the three I mentioned? Neutral, mortal and immortal. Since the second death is a spiritual death, in what state of being will the unbelivers have, and since it is not eternal, just how long is it?
Your response:.....
Those who refuse to believe, "die in their sins"; thus when they are raised, they still have the stain of sin. This stain cannot be removed after they have physically died. They are raised physically, but spiritually they are still dead.

But so far you have not established that they can even die in their sins. You never gave them life for them to do that. They, as you remember, are still under Adam. They are already condemned. Now you want them to be condenmed again, for what? You left them all dead in their sins and treaspasses. The Bible says that we die once, so that the body of sin will die. We sin through that body, that is why we are allowed to die once, physically. Now, for unbelievers you have them being raised in their former bodies, mortal still. Do they get to live another mortal life and maybe, hopefully see the Light and are still saved, since they will not live eternally. How long do they live?
By the way, were are the texts that support these suppositions?
We've already discussed this; in places like Heb9:27, men die once and after that are judged --- in places like Rom2:6-8, the judgment is to eternal life, or to wrath and indignation; clearly that "wrath" is "the lake of fire". Gehenna.

Since "made alive" is "through faith", if faith can end, then the "birth" can end too. Those who believe and receive Jesus are adopted as sons (Jn1:12)The concept of "unadoption" is clear in Heb12 --- if we REJECT God's discipline we are illigetimate and no longer sons.

"SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discpline of the) Father of spirits, AND LIVE?" Heb12:9

That can only mean "and live eternally".
Quoted by Ben:
He is the propitiation TO all men, but FOR believers. It is as 1Tim4:10 says, "Savior of ALL MEN, malista-above-all believers."


Quoted by RG:
But the propitiation was not for men, but for sins. It matters not whose sins, if any sins. That is why God can forgiven the sins of whosoever believes and could do it for every soul, since all man could have believed. If they had, it still would not only been sufficient but for 10 times that many sins.
I Tim 4:10 is a matter of fact. Christ IS the Savior of all men, because He did indeed give life to ALL MEN. But especially beleivers because that is the reason He saved all men, so that each could believe, the whosoever. If Christ only saved some, then it cannot say, whosoever, but ONLY those that Christ saved. Christ is not saving your soul from the Cross but our physical existance, the life of the universe.
No. "Propitiation" means "appeasement"; payment for our sins. You're asserting that God is appeased without repentance. What you're missing, is the concept that "those who continue sinning willfully, it is as if they crucify Christ OVER and OVER AGAIN".[/b] One sacrifice does not cover continuous sin. This is clear in Heb6:6, and 10:26...
Quoted by Ben:
Hell is the Lake of Fire; it is the Second Death --- the concept of "death", is incompatible with "immortality". Whether one believes in "annhilationism" or "eternal torture", Hell isn't immortality.

Quoted by RG:
Well let's look at death first. Death is the separation of body and soul. it is non-existance of a human being. We were neither created body or soul, but both and that is why Christ needed to heal both, not one. The Second death is compatible with immortality, because the second death is a spiritual death. In order to have a viable spiritual union one must be physcially alive. Can a dead man have a spiritual union with God. God did not think so, so He send Christ to give mankind life, so man could believe, have a spiritual life as well. If the unrightesous are not immortal, then i presume they are still mortal. But they are again condemned to death a physical death, so how does an unbeliever even experince hell. It is nothingness. If man is going to experience hell or heaven, he needs life, that is a physical existance, He must be a human being.
So, further explain your theology on this point.
The Cross only affected spiritual life; those who are spiritually alive, receive immortality when Jesus returns. Those who are not, don't.
Quoted by RG:
Not even close to an answer. This question has been repeated at least four times in this response. It all depends on your definitions of terms you are using. mortal, immortality, eternal life, resurrection, specify when there is a difference between physical and spiritual.

Your response......
Hell is the "second death"; immortality means Heaven, and is given to the righteous.
Ok, if so, what state of being is the person in hell? mortal or what? Obviously not immortal as you state. So how long will he live this time, another 80 years, then what. Does Christ die again to redeem Him again, so he has chance at immortality? Sounds very close to Universalism. Eventually all men will be saved. Just a little trial and chastisement in hell.

Ben, very interesting theology.
Await further clarification of your view.
There are some who believe that Hell is annihilation --- thinking that "destroy" really means "destroy" in Matt10:28; others perceive that the very LOCATION of "being in Hell" is "destruction". Doesn't matter which a person believes, Hell is not spiritually alive. "Alive", is "in Christ" --- and those in Hell, aren't.
 
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nobdysfool

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Ben johnson said:
Your perception of "all will be made alive in Christ", puzzles me; let's do a search on "made alive":

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


In 1Cor15, "made alive" is "in Christ".
In Eph2 "made alive" is "through faith".
In Col2 "made alive" is also "forgiven of all sins".
In 1Pet2 "made alive" is by the Holy Spirit.

There is no way that "in Christ" and "through faith" and "forgiven-sins" and "Holy Spirit", applies to unbelievers. On what grounds do you perceive that "all are made alive, believers or not"?

Ben, I recall having this conversation with you before, and at the time you didn't want to see that the operative terms in this passage are "in Adam" and "in Christ". Apparently you are beginning to see it.

What does it mean to be "in Adam"? For starters, if we are human, we are descended from him. So, we can safely say that all who are in Adam refers to the entire human race, inclusively.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means we are joined to Him, and derive our life from Him. it means we have been changed (born again), made alive (by God), and redeemed from the consequences of being in Adam. the fate for all in Adam, is certain. Likewise, the fate for all in Christ is equally certain.

However, as you have correctly pointed out, not all are, or will be, in Christ. Those in Christ have passed from death to life, and no unregenerate, still-in-Adam unbeliever can make that claim, or bring it about themselves, because being in Christ is God's doing, not man's.

Ephesians 2:5, and Clk. 2:13, is speaking to and of those who are already in Christ. It is not speaking of mankind in general, as RG is trying to establish. In fact, most of the Bible is written to those who already believe.

RG would have us believe that the life being referred to is only physical life. That is absolutely untrue, and I don't care how many times he claims the ECFs taught it, or that his interpretation is the Gospel "one given", which is a misinterpretation of the passage it is lifted from.

The bottom line: All in Adam die. All in Christ are made alive. The two statements are not equivalent in numbers. those who assume they are, cannot avoid Universalism if they remain consistent.

The difference is, All are in Adam by default. Only those who are saved are transferred from Adam to Christ. Therefore, those who are in Christ are a subset of the human race. Those who are in Adam are the entire human race, minus those in Christ.
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by NBF:
Ben, I recall having this conversation with you before, and at the time you didn't want to see that the operative terms in this passage are "in Adam" and "in Christ". Apparently you are beginning to see it.
Hi, "NBF". I don't think I've changed in my perception of "we inherit a sinful nature from Adam, but those in Christ receive new spiritual natures".
Quote:
What does it mean to be "in Adam"? For starters, if we are human, we are descended from him. So, we can safely say that all who are in Adam refers to the entire human race, inclusively.
Agreed.
Quote:
What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means we are joined to Him, and derive our life from Him. it means we have been changed (born again), made alive (by God), and redeemed from the consequences of being in Adam. the fate for all in Adam, is certain. Likewise, the fate for all in Christ is equally certain.
Right.
Quote:
However, as you have correctly pointed out, not all are, or will be, in Christ. Those in Christ have passed from death to life, and no unregenerate, still-in-Adam unbeliever can make that claim...
Agree with all.
...or bring it about themselves, because being in Christ is God's doing, not man's.
Here is where we diverge; "Rightglory" and I agree that "being in Christ, is through voluntary faith" --- that the BEGOTTENNESS is all of God and nothing of men (Jn1:13), but BECOMING begotten is by believing and receiving Jesus (Jn1:12).

But this being a thread about "a conversation with an EO", we can discuss our differences in one of the other threads. :)
Quote:
Ephesians 2:5, and Col. 2:13, is speaking to and of those who are already in Christ. It is not speaking of mankind in general, as RG is trying to establish. In fact, most of the Bible is written to those who already believe.
Agreed --- the concept of "IN CHRIST", denotes belief, repentance, regeneration, and salvation.
Quote:
RG would have us believe that the life being referred to is only physical life. That is absolutely untrue, and I don't care how many times he claims the ECFs taught it, or that his interpretation is the Gospel "one given", which is a misinterpretation of the passage it is lifted from.

The bottom line: All in Adam die. All in Christ are made alive. The two statements are not equivalent in numbers. those who assume they are, cannot avoid Universalism if they remain consistent.

The difference is, All are in Adam by default. Only those who are saved are transferred from Adam to Christ. Therefore, those who are in Christ are a subset of the human race. Those who are in Adam are the entire human race, minus those in Christ.
This is my understanding also. I look forward to the responses by RG, and any other EO who wishes to join in.

:)
 
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nobdysfool

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Quoted by NBF:
Ben, I recall having this conversation with you before, and at the time you didn't want to see that the operative terms in this passage are "in Adam" and "in Christ". Apparently you are beginning to see it.
Hi, "NBF". I don't think I've changed in my perception of "we inherit a sinful nature from Adam, but those in Christ receive new spiritual natures".

The reason I perceive change is because at one time you argued that this verse was an equation, meaning that both sides of the equation must be equivalent. You know, 2+1 = 1+2. As we have established, that is not the sense this verse is spoken in. It is not an equation, but a comparison.

Ben said:
Quote:
What does it mean to be "in Adam"? For starters, if we are human, we are descended from him. So, we can safely say that all who are in Adam refers to the entire human race, inclusively.
Agreed.
Quote:
What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means we are joined to Him, and derive our life from Him. it means we have been changed (born again), made alive (by God), and redeemed from the consequences of being in Adam. the fate for all in Adam, is certain. Likewise, the fate for all in Christ is equally certain.
Right.
Quote:
However, as you have correctly pointed out, not all are, or will be, in Christ. Those in Christ have passed from death to life, and no unregenerate, still-in-Adam unbeliever can make that claim...
Agree with all.

Good. I was hoping I was making myself clear.

Ben said:
Quote:...or bring it about themselves, because being in Christ is God's doing, not man's.
Here is where we diverge; "Rightglory" and I agree that "being in Christ, is through voluntary faith" --- that the BEGOTTENNESS is all of God and nothing of men (Jn1:13), but BECOMING begotten is by believing and receiving Jesus (Jn1:12).

Ben, please stop and think about what I said, and what you're saying. This is a classic example of talking past each other, and you trying to direct the conversation into the path you want it to take, rather than sticking to what was said, in the context it was said.

I am not talking about "begotteneness". I am talking about Who saves us. Who puts us in Christ. We don't do that. We cannot do that. God places us in Christ. We cannot save ourselves. If we could, there would be no need for Christ. How we come to the point where God places us in Christ is another discussion. We don't agree on that, but I believe that it is through some cognitive dissonance and felicitous inconsistency on your part.

The point I was making, is that it is God who places us in Christ. Do you agree that this is so? Do you agree that we cannot place ourselves in Christ, by our own thought, action, or choice, apart from God?

Ben said:
But this being a thread about "a conversation with an EO", we can discuss our differences in one of the other threads. :)

Yeah, so why did you bring it up? Just couldn't help yourself? ;)

Ben said:
Quote:
Ephesians 2:5, and Col. 2:13, is speaking to and of those who are already in Christ. It is not speaking of mankind in general, as RG is trying to establish. In fact, most of the Bible is written to those who already believe.
Agreed --- the concept of "IN CHRIST", denotes belief, repentance, regeneration, and salvation.
Quote:
RG would have us believe that the life being referred to is only physical life. That is absolutely untrue, and I don't care how many times he claims the ECFs taught it, or that his interpretation is the Gospel "one given", which is a misinterpretation of the passage it is lifted from.

The bottom line: All in Adam die. All in Christ are made alive. The two statements are not equivalent in numbers. those who assume they are, cannot avoid Universalism if they remain consistent.

The difference is, All are in Adam by default. Only those who are saved are transferred from Adam to Christ. Therefore, those who are in Christ are a subset of the human race. Those who are in Adam are the entire human race, minus those in Christ.
This is my understanding also. I look forward to the responses by RG, and any other EO who wishes to join in.

:)

OK, at least we mostly agree here. I think it's important to make sure we understand what is, and isn't being said in this discussion, to avoid the talking-past that usually results.

I'm sure the EO will have something to say. Their mileage may vary.....
 
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Rightglory

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Ben Johnson,

The Cross only affected spiritual life; those who are spiritually alive, receive immortality when Jesus returns. Those who are not, don't.
You are correct that the Cross only affected spiritually life, but more importantly it EFFECTED life.
It goes to your understanding of the fall. Christ reversed the fall. Man and God were created to be in an eternal relationship and Adam was persuing that relationship when the fall occurred.
As I stated earlier, most, if not all protestants make the fall a spiritual event. However, it was a spiritual separation, namely sin, that prompted the judgement of that sin. Which was death. Man became mortal. He died. At the exit to the Garden God confirms that sentence, dust to dust, Gen 3:19. that will be the state of man when he physically expires at the end of a mortal life. But God had already given the promise of the correction in Gen 3:15. Christ would come to reverse that judgement. So we have death in Adam and life from Christ.
Then lets move to the Birth of Christ. Do you not, or do you believe, that Christ assumed our fallen human natures? this is a physical state, not a spiritual state. Do you believe in the Incarnation, which is that Christ assumed our natues, completely, wholly, without difference in one iota, but in this nature did not sin.
In your theology, Christ's Incarnation is wholly unneccesary. You have ADam dying spiritually and Christ giving life Spiritually. Why does Christ even need to be a human being in this scenerio?
If you consider sin to the the primary problem of man, then a sacrifice could have been done by some righteous man who God could have instilled some special favor of grace to perfectly keep the law and be a perfect sacrifice. A sacrifice does not require a resurrection. Why is a resurrection even necessary for Christ in your theology. I see no point in it so far?
If you are of the belief that the text of I Cor 15:20-22 is that Adam passed a spiritual death upon mankind, then Chrsit only passed spiritual life to some, those that believe, then the equation falls. There is no limitation of the word all in this text not several others that all pertain to the Work of Christ on the Cross.
Scripturally Adam did not pass on spiritual death to anyone. If so, we would not be responsible for our own sins, but those of ONLY Adam. He did not pass on his sin and guilt. They are all his very own and no man possesses them. Hoever, the effect of that one single sin, was a judgment of death upon Adam. It touched his very nature, became mortal. So affected it was that it, mortality was passed on to every single human being.
Mortality means death, separation of body and soul, It is the end of the human being as he was created, to be both eternal and in union with God. thus Death precluded the purpose of God's created order from ever being accomplished.
Man cannot give himself life. He cannot save himself. How can a dead mortal being give himself eternal, immortal life?
this is the question you have failed to answer in your discourse and why you are jumping all over the place between some being physcially alive, some being physically dead and the physically dead somehow becoming ONLY spiritually alive. An impossbility.
But God wanted His creation, which was good not to be destroyed, physically, (spiritual in not even in the picture here) by death. Death is the realm of Satan. He rules this world through death. If death cannot be defeated, then God is not omnipotent. God would of necessity need to at least share in the power over this created order.
ONLY the Giver of LIFE, physical life could restore LIFE to mankind, namely the world. Since God is not a respector of persons, He created all, He gave all His image, we are all the same essence, He in His great LOVE and MERCY would send Christ, to restore life, physical life to the world.
It is why He can be literally called, the Savior of the World, He is the Light of the World. He came to redeem sinners. Are not all men sinners? These are all those texts that speak of Christ reconciling the world. NEVER, NEVER does it ever say that Christ reconciled ONLY believers and never touched the physical universe.
It is also why He gives Light to every man that cometh into the world. Why each man will stand before Him, physically, to give an account of what He did with that Great Gift of LIFE and HIS choice of freely living in that LIFE. This is borne out in Rom 1:18-23.
Your view leaves mankind actually, in death. A spiritual existance is moot in your whole view because if Christ failed to even raise one single soul from death, then not a single soul would be raised from death. If none raised from death, then your faith is in vain. I Cor 15:14-19.
the Physical is before the spiritual, I Cor 15:46. You cannot even think about the latter unless and until man has life. The dead, mortal being, cannot believe, cannot have an eternal existance with God, so why bother even in this life.
Now, lets look again at the result of this salvation of mankind from death through Christ.
When Christ defeated death, by His resurrection, it also defeated sin which is the sting of death. Mankind was released from the condemnation through Adam. We ALL , mankind, both believers and unbelievers shall be raised from the dead. They will be raised because Christ arose from the dead. He raised our mortal natures to immortality. God did not want to give some power to Satan, He did not wish His good created order to be destroyed. He is not partial as most of protestants make God. You leave Him an unmerciful God to most of His creatures bearing His Image. You leave Him an unjust God who would even consider leaving any of His creatures in death solely because of the one sin of one man. He showed mercy to all, Rom 11:32 and just in that every man will stand before Him and declare to Him what they did in this life time, this mortal life on this earth with the Great Gift He gave to them, LIFE and the call to be in union with HIM for an eternity.
It became apparent to me in this discussion why protestants always claim that this view is Universalism. It is because you believe that the Work of Christ on the Cross is spiritual rather than the physical it was. That is why you also believe that a spritual aspect, faith, can give eternal life, a physical state. Also why you would also hold to some form of OSAS as how can you actually be physically reborn and lose that LIFE.
Faith is not a change of physical natures but a spiritual one. We are not born again physically, but spirtually into a union that was lost because of the fall, death, physical existance.
Resurrections. Obviously you have gone all over the map on this.
There are two of each, one is spiritual the other physical. They align with each other.
Christ gave physical life to mankind. We all shall die once physically. It is to rid the body of sin, or the mortal state, of all of mankind, no exceptions, Christ lost none to death. All shall be raised, Satan and death will be totally defeated.
We all shall be raised physically, ONLY because Christ arose from the grave and gave our mortal natures immortality. If He did not do this, ONLY those that He actually died for, could be saved spiritually as well, which also means, all that He redeemed, are also soul saved. This falls right into the classic Universalist mode, of none being lost even to hell. Actually in your view, hell cannot exist. You have no one eligible for hell. You left them all under condemnation of Adam. dust to dust.
I know that you say that the dead are raised in the end, but you have no theological answer for their resurrection. Just another of many contradictions. You want them to be judged again, but for what. They are already judged. Judged under the sin of one man, not even their own sins. Man needs life, and the free choice to sin, to stand in judgment for his sins.
Lets look at some of these contradictions, especially those of the "first resurrection". this is a spiritual resurrection. It occurs at the rebirth of our spiritual union with Christ which is by faith, repentance and baptism. Because it is a spiritual union it is possible to falther, to fall from it as did Adam. But if we do not believe or at some point leave the union with Christ, we are not condemned to a physical death, but a spiritual death. This is the Second Death, a spiritual aspect.
You have stated that unbelievers by some miraculous means were raised, physically. But you also stated they were raised mortals. Where in scripture is this supported within your view? then, so far, you failed to answer the question, how long will they live as mortals. Being mortal is a physical state of death, dying. Does hell cease to exist in your theology? It is not eternal in existance? When does the Bible state that those in hell will die (physically)?
Let us look at the texts over which you are stumbling, the phrase "in Christ".
Your perception of "all will be made alive in Christ", puzzles me; let's do a search on "made alive":
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

In 1Cor15, "made alive" is "in Christ".
In Eph2 "made alive" is "through faith".
In Col2 "made alive" is also "forgiven of all sins".
In 1Pet2 "made alive" is by the Holy Spirit.
the context will tell you, but I can now see why the context is baffling when you only believe in a spiritual restoration by Christ. But it was both, whether your view includes it or not.
I Cor 15:22 is a absolute equation. As in Adam all men died (physically), so also all men shall be made alive in Christ, (physcially). Christ's work does not effect a spiritual renewal, but does effect a physical life. Even the secondary work, the atonement does not effect a spiritual renewal. But both do affect a spiritual renewal which is by faith.
Eph 2:5 is the physical. It is referencing Christ's work, His Saving Grace, absent of anything man can render, it is in parentheses for that reason, because of the transition Paul makes to separate believers in verse 9 who are also saved throrugh faith, an individual man response.
I can now see your viewpoint since all things are spiritual, it would of necessity need to be the same, but it is not. The Incarnation did occur whether your view actually recognizes it or not, so also did the resurrection for all.
Col 2:13, Might I also point to vs 12 where it plainly says we were baptised with Him and raised with Him, THROUGTH FAITH. A spiritual participation, by baptism, Rom 6:3-4, the first resurrection, a spiritual resurrection.
However, vs 13 starts right out with referencing mankind. Mankind, everyone, in Adam was dead in sins a treaspasses and your flesh uncircumcised and having forgiven all treaspasses, having wiped out the requirements that was against us. What requirements? Death, Christ wiped out death. Death to all. Vs 11 also confirms this. The believer partakes of this by baptism and we can enter a spiritual union because Christ triumphed over sin, death, powers of principalities, (Satan) the flesh, law and evil spirits. Christ triumphed over all so that we can share in the victory through faith. We don't need to perform the work of our salvation which is impossible. But the union which we were created to have with God, has been restored, the ability and capability given to all of mankind because He desires that all men come to Him. He left NONE under the power of death and sin.
Man, In God's justice, can and will be judged for his own actions, for his own sins, and not those of Adam. Christ is after all, the Second Adam, not a half an Adam, or worse, no Savior at all.
I Pet3:18, This verse is not even speaking of believers. It is solely speaking of Christ, but the analogy would fit. Chist suffered death in the flesh, but was raised by the Holy Spirit. But then so are we. we were made alive physically through Christ and made to LIVE IN Christ by the HOLY Spirit.
Not just the context of the immediate verse, but the whole Context of what Christ accomplished for mankind, actually the universe.
this raises another question regarding texts as Col 1:15-20, If Christ only reconciled man spiritually, just how is the universe a spritual entity only? Or how does it become spiritually reconciled, by faith?
I will answer your specific questions in the next part.


To be continued..... to part II.
 
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Rightglory

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Ben,
Part II.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. Rom5:14 very clearly asserts that we inherit a nature of sin and rebellion from Adam. True we are sinners because we sin (not vice-versa), but we cannot AVOID sin, apart from Christ's grace.
it does not even mention a sin nature. But it is clearly saying that death reigned even over those who did not sin according to the likness of his own transgression. In other words we inherited a nature that sins. Death reigns, we became mortal through Adam. We don't sin because Adam sinned, we sin because we are dead. Dead in sins and trespasses.
We cannot even avoid sin with God's Grace. Christ did not change our human natures in this life, nor eradicate sin, or dissolve the devil. They all exist and they all ply against man, to lead him astray. It is the test we are under, just as Adam was under a test.
You're gonna hafta find some Scriptural support for making "made-alive", apply to "non-believers". See the quotes above; "made-alive" involves believing attributes.
I have already many times, but never as a group to you, I don't believe. But here they are:
God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; Rom 11:32; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, John 6:39. Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.
Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

You're equating the "second resurrection", to "immortality"; all of Scripture asserts "immortality is the reward of the righteous". Believers.
Yes, absolutely. No, not in everyplace. That is the goal, the intent of God, through Christ. He desires that all men be saved, of necessity it is encumbent upon God to give life to mankind so that He could even have ONE believer. If the dead are all raised, it is because of Christ. All shall have immortality, eternal life, but not all will enjoy it WITH CHRIST. Man needs life even to live in hell and experience a spiritual disconnection. A dead human being cannot live in hell. Very simple to understand.
The dead in Christ are raised, then we who are alive (in Christ) and remain will be caught up with Jesus in the clouds. There's no way to disconnect 1Cor15:22 ("in Christ all shall be made alive") from verse 23 ("those who are Christ's at His return...").

If you want it to be as you think, vs 22 or vs 23 would be superflous. Vs 22 is all of mankind which is verified in many other texts, see the group above. But there is favoristism, those IN Christ which is different than made alive in Christ. It is those that LIVE in Christ, a whole different thing, the same actually as you have in Eph 1:5-9. One is part of the larger. But those already dead who LIVED in Christ then those who are physically alive at His coming.
Vs 26 even sums it up. ALL death, that in inclusive, no one was missed, Death was under Adam. Life was under Christ. Christ is the total victor over death, not a partial victor. Christ does indeed rule and Satan has been totally, completely defeated. Your view leaves Satan still in power, ruling over your mortal beings in hell.
We may be at an "impass"; unless you can explain how "unbelievers can be 'IN CHRIST' ", I cannot see a way that an unbeliever is "Made alive"; that's a spiritual concept.

That is because I have never stated, nor even implied that unbelievers are IN Christ. You are associating any life as ONLY a spiritual life and it is secondary to the whole gospel. Death is the central, most important problem to mankind. We were sentenced to extinction, nothingness. If anything is going to happen with mankind, mankind needs life first. Believers of any stripe are moot unless one has life, a physical existance.
First, it is not an unbeliever that is made alive, it is mankind that is made alive.
the short summary of Christ's Work is that Christ made us (mankind)alive(physcially) so that we might LIVE IN Him (spiritually). If Christ was not raised, then none of the dead are raised either, which negates any eternal life period. Death reigns and will always reign. But Christ gave life to mankind, overcoming death, so that each individual human being can decide to either LIVE in Christ or apart from Christ. But to do either, one must have life. We would all be dead, including Christ. This is what I Cor 15:14-19 is so explicitedly stating.

TWO salvations? Jesus provided "salvation from sin" --- immortality. What is the OTHER salvation, and who provided
that is a contradiction. first, salvation from sin does not grant immortality. It ONLY grants a spiritual union because Christ the High Priest of His Own self sacrifice can forgive sins so we can exist IN Christ, be reconciled to HIM by and through faith.
If that was the ONLY thing Christ accomplished on the Cross He would be a total failure. He failed to conquer the primary problem of mankind. Death. We have already been sentenced to death. Every single human being was condemned already. How emphatic can I make that statement. Christ overcame that judgement of death. It is death that cause us to sin, but it is LIFE or immortality that makes it possible for God to have a spiritual union that can begin in this life because of the atonement, but continue in the next life because He gave us all immortality.
There is no way, anywhere in Scripture that states we recieve immortality by faith. A spiritual aspect cannot grant a physical state. It can grant a spiritual state which it does, eternal life WITH CHRIST.
Men were not physically alive before Jesus died???
Actually, man was CONSIDERED alive from the moment God gave the promise to Adam at the gardens exist in Gen 3:15. Christ simply came at the opportune time and fulfilled that promise. He also made another promise which is that He shall come again to judge the living and the dead. He will judge all men, believers and unbelievers. He can do that because He arose from the dead, physically, and gave life, immortality to our mortal natures.
It is impossible for Christ not to have saved all of mankind. That fact that death was the sentence whereby man became mortal, this nature is passed through our natures. Meaning man is consubstantial with each other. A change in one essence is a change in all those that possess that essence. this is why God allowed Satan to impose death through our natures because God knew also that ONLY Christ, His Son, could and would be born of man, so that He could assume that same fallen human nature and raise it to life, immortality, incorruptibility. Christ cannot be selective in the mode God chose to either impose death or grant Life to mankind.
If you can show how Christ can save some and not all, by His Incarnation, not just man, but even the universe, I would be interested in the texts you use and your formulation of the theoogy to explain them.
I see nothing of "Jesus dying on the Cross so that all men will have PHYSICAL life". What did they have before? They lived, and died; after Jesus, they lived and died.
Death. The fact you even say they died, gives proof that man is under death. Man was not created to be mortal, but eternal. Man was created good, neutral, not either mortal nor immortal.
It is your fallacy of understanding that everything Christ did was spiritual when in essence it was all physical. It effected life, but affected spiritual life.
Christ saved not a single soul on the Cross. He restored the created order to what it was before sthe fall. Man freely able to commune with God, eternally.
I "have", nothing. We're discussing what Scripture "has".
Yes, absolutely, what Scripture has always stated, but more importantly has always been understood. Most of your view is built on the exegisis of single verses which might have common words, but are totally discnnected. You based whole theologcial concepts on single trees, so to speak, and don't even see the forest, the overall plan of God in creation of man, the fall, the salvation from that fall, and then back to the salvation of individual man, which he was specifically created to be and do. Nothing aligns with the other.
Sorry, the "baptism" spoken of in Rom6:3, has nothing to do with water.
Five words are used interchangeably, and we cannot inject a "water-topic":
1. Died
2. Crucified
3. Buried
4. Immersed
5. UNITED
We are "immersed into Christ", we are not "immersed into water"; just like we are "united with Christ", we are not "united with water".
It does and always has. It is the one who by faith has believed and is now entering the Kingdom of Christ. We SPIRITUALLY experience that physical death, resurrection, burial of Christ. It is known as that FIRST RESURRECTION, the spiritual one overcoming the dead spiritual nature we all have unless we are IN Christ, LIVE IN HIM.
You cited Rom6; verse 4 speaks of "being united in Christ's resurrection".
...you would have all men united in His resurrection, regardless of unbelief and sin.
Spiritually, not physically which all men will at the last day. That is why they, the unbeleiver has not been resurrected and won't be until the physical one at the end. He never experiences the first resurrection because He never believed. He will suffer the spiritual second death.
Your incorrect understanding comes because you spiritualize everything, yet what Christ did on theCross was ONLY physical.
You don't think it really happened, it was only a spiritual cruxifiction?
The two resurrections are 1000 years apart...
It really depends on when you believed, remained faithfull, died and the general resurrection actually occurs. for some of the early Christians it has been 2000 years. For me and you, who knows. I Christ came today that time period would be only a few years difference, how about you. If he tarries another 2000 years, then it will be at least 2000 years difference.
The "last trumpet", is the end of the Tribulation; and the beginning of the Thousand Year Reign.
It is the end of the Tribulation and time as we know it. It is the end. the next is eternity. The Thousand Year reign is in progess. Those that shared in that first, (spiritual) resurrection are already with Him and sharing in that reign.
You don't believe Christ in on the Throne today and rules? You don't believe you are actually IN Christ, that you don't LIVE IN HIM, thus you can reign with Him NOW!?

The unrighteous are not alive spiritually; they have "died in their sins". When resurrected physically, their spirits remain dead; and they are cast into Gehenna.
that is what (spiritually dead means) But to be spiritually dead one must have life, a physical existance. You don't want them to even have a physical existance so that they can stand in judgement. So that they can experience hell, a place of their own choosing. A choice that you have a pile of dust making, since you do not believe that Christ arose from the dead, giving life to the WORLD. How could He have missed some of mankind?

We've already discussed this; in places like Heb9:27, men die once and after that are judged --- in places like Rom2:6-8, the judgment is to eternal life, or to wrath and indignation; clearly that "wrath" is "the lake of fire". Gehenna.
So if it is a physical place, just what state arethey in, you earlier stated they remained mortal, which is much more than scripture allows, which was dust to dust?
No. "Propitiation" means "appeasement"; payment for our sins. You're asserting that God is appeased without repentance.

Absolutely, Christ did not forgive a single sin from the Cross. He appeased sin, made man right with God. God could overlook the treaspasses of the past. Christ made peace with God for mankind. Could man appease God of His sin? it makes the spiritual union possible in this life while we still have a fallen nature, while we still sin, and Satan still plies his trade as well. What we need is forgiveness of sins to be reconciled to Christ. We do this by faith. That is why it is called justification by faith. It is not called justification by Christ, in this instance. that is why there are two justifications which you hve a difficulty with because you conflate both aspects of salvation and make them all spiritual. they are not in both instances.
There are some who believe that Hell is annihilation --- thinking that "destroy" really means "destroy" in Matt10:28; others perceive that the very LOCATION of "being in Hell" is "destruction". Doesn't matter which a person believes, Hell is not spiritually alive. "Alive", is "in Christ" --- and those in Hell, aren't.
that may be, but we have not touched on that topic. Death is annhilation. It is what Christ saved His created order from, not just mankind. Death is destruction also.
But in the end, hell is being spiritually apart from Christ. But unfortunately for you view, man must at least exist to even experience hell. You still need clarify this mortal state in hell. I don't see anything is scripture that either states this or even hints at this.
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Rightglory:
You are correct that the Cross only affected spiritually life, but more importantly it EFFECTED life.
It goes to your understanding of the fall. Christ reversed the fall. Man and God were created to be in an eternal relationship and Adam was persuing that relationship when the fall occurred.
Hi, "Rightglory" --- thank you for your posts. :)

Our disagreement is simply what "made alive", means. I agree that the fellowship which existed between Adam and God is what Jesus restored. But does that restoration exist between God, and unbelievers? No.

Instead of "restoration", let's use "reconcilliation"; and with that, we see that it fully conditions on man's faith. Verses like Col1:21-23 are very clear...
Quote:
As I stated earlier, most, if not all Protestants make the fall a spiritual event. However, it was a spiritual separation, namely sin, that prompted the judgement of that sin. Which was death. Man became mortal. He died. At the exit to the Garden God confirms that sentence, dust to dust, Gen 3:19. that will be the state of man when he physically expires at the end of a mortal life. But God had already given the promise of the correction in Gen 3:15. Christ would come to reverse that judgement. So we have death in Adam and life from Christ.
Gen3:15 speaks of the enmity between women and snakes (explains the long-standing battle in the comic strip "BC", doesn't it?). To support your position of "all men have life in Christ, without regard to their faith", you would need to provide a verse that asserts "life in Christ", but without the condition of "faith".

Eph2:5 isn't it; 'cause verse 8 absolutely connects to verse 5, with "faith".
 
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Ben johnson

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QUote:
Then let's move to the Birth of Christ. Do you not, or do you believe, that Christ assumed our fallen human natures? this is a physical state, not a spiritual state. Do you believe in the Incarnation, which is that Christ assumed our natues, completely, wholly, without difference in one iota, but in this nature did not sin.
Yes.
Quote:
In your theology, Christ's Incarnation is wholly unneccesary. You have Adam dying spiritually and Christ giving life Spiritually. Why does Christ even need to be a human being in this scenerio?
By becoming flesh, He became our substitute. Our "propitiation". But that, not without our faith, and receiving the Gift.
Quote:
If you consider sin to the the primary problem of man, then a sacrifice could have been done by some righteous man who God could have instilled some special favor of grace to perfectly keep the law and be a perfect sacrifice. A sacrifice does not require a resurrection. Why is a resurrection even necessary for Christ in your theology. I see no point in it so far?
Sin IS the problem; and His blood washes away our sin --- but not without our faith. By raising from the dead, He conquered death; and we are united in His resurrection, new creations (born again).
Quote:
If you are of the belief that the text of I Cor 15:20-22 is that Adam passed a spiritual death upon mankind, then Christ only passed spiritual life to some, those that believe, then the equation falls.
Not at all. Verses 20-22 say:
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." The key here is "in Christ"; it reflects the whole chapter, which begins:

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the Gospel which I preached to you; in which you also stand, by which you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain..."

Our disagreement is on the concept of "all". In Adam all die --- and this includes every last man. Understand that death is the PROVISION, faithlessness (that is, SINNING) is the fulfillment. This mirrors Rom5 perfectly --- death CAME to all men (17-18); and the fulfillment of that "came-death/condemnation", happens to each man when he sins. "ALL MEN DIED, because all sinned". Rm5:12

Now understand that life is the PROVISION, equally to all men --- Paul conspicuously uses "SO THEN (death came to all), EVEN SO (justification came to all)". Death came provisionally, fulfilled by each man sinning; likewise, justification/salvation came provisionally, fulfilled by each man BELIEVING (or not!).

Rom5:17 plainly says that they will reign, who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness. Faith receives (fulfils) the provision.

Those who do not have faith, do not have the provision.
 
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Quote:
There is no limitation of the word all in this text not several others that all pertain to the Work of Christ on the Cross.
Scripturally Adam did not pass on spiritual death to anyone. If so, we would not be responsible for our own sins, but those of ONLY Adam. He did not pass on his sin and guilt. They are all his very own and no man possesses them. Hoever, the effect of that one single sin, was a judgment of death upon Adam. It touched his very nature, became mortal. So affected it was that it, mortality was passed on to every single human being.
We are not guilty of Adam's sins; but we inherited Adam's sin nature. That's why all men sin, and thus fulfill the requirement for condemnation.

What I'm hoping to convince you of, is that "made alive", is only through faith; and it's a spiritual position ("in Christ")...
Quote:
Mortality means death, separation of body and soul, It is the end of the human being as he was created, to be both eternal and in union with God. thus Death precluded the purpose of God's created order from ever being accomplished.
Man cannot give himself life. He cannot save himself. How can a dead mortal being give himself eternal, immortal life?
this is the question you have failed to answer in your discourse and why you are jumping all over the place between some being physcially alive, some being physically dead and the physically dead somehow becoming ONLY spiritually alive. An impossbility.
Between Adam and Christ, many people lived; and they were not dead physically, until they died physically.

It is faith that receives Christ's life. Yet --- those before Christ, were still saved THROUGH Him --- there is only one Savior.
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But God wanted His creation, which was good not to be destroyed, physically, (spiritual in not even in the picture here) by death. Death is the realm of satan. He rules this world through death. If death cannot be defeated, then God is not omnipotent. God would of necessity need to at least share in the power over this created order.
ONLY the Giver of LIFE, physical life could restore LIFE to mankind, namely the world. Since God is not a respector of persons, He created all, He gave all His image, we are all the same essence, He in His great LOVE and MERCY would send Christ, to restore life, physical life to the world.
I'm not understanding how you are asserting that "men were not physically alive, until Christ".
 
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Ben johnson

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It is why He can be literally called, the Savior of the World, He is the Light of the World. He came to redeem sinners. Are not all men sinners? These are all those texts that speak of Christ reconciling the world. NEVER, NEVER does it ever say that Christ reconciled ONLY believers and never touched the physical universe.
It is also why He gives Light to every man that cometh into the world. .
Reconcilliation is ONLY to believers...
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Why each man will stand before Him, physically, to give an account of what He did with that Great Gift of LIFE and HIS choice of freely living in that LIFE. This is borne out in Rom 1:18-23.
Yet those who were faithless, do not have "light" or "life". Light is something we must walk IN. 1Jn1:7
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Your view leaves mankind actually, in death. A spiritual existance is moot in your whole view because if Christ failed to even raise one single soul from death, then not a single soul would be raised from death. If none raised from death, then your faith is in vain. I Cor 15:14-19.
It is faith by which we are "raised from the dead".
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the Physical is before the spiritual, I Cor 15:46. You cannot even think about the latter unless and until man has life. The dead, mortal being, cannot believe, cannot have an eternal existance with God, so why bother even in this life.
Now, lets look again at the result of this salvation of mankind from death through Christ.
When Christ defeated death, by His resurrection, it also defeated sin which is the sting of death. Mankind was released from the condemnation through Adam. We ALL, mankind, both believers and unbelievers shall be raised from the dead. They will be raised because Christ arose from the dead. He raised our mortal natures to immortality. God did not want to give some power to Satan, He did not wish His good created order to be destroyed. He is not partial as most of Protestants make God. You leave Him an unmerciful God to most of His creatures bearing His Image. You leave Him an unjust God who would even consider leaving any of His creatures in death solely because of the one sin of one man. He showed mercy to all, Rom 11:32 and just in that every man will stand before Him and declare to Him what they did in this life time, this mortal life on this earth with the Great Gift He gave to them, LIFE and the call to be in union with HIM for an eternity.
The provision is life and hope to all; the fulfillment of that provision, is by faith.

Those WHO believe are saved.
 
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Ben johnson

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It became apparent to me in this discussion why Protestants always claim that this view is Universalism. It is because you believe that the Work of Christ on the Cross is spiritual rather than the physical it was. That is why you also believe that a spritual aspect, faith, can give eternal life, a physical state. Also why you would also hold to some form of OSAS as how can you actually be physically reborn and lose that LIFE.
Eternal life is the inheritance; and it is reserved in Heaven for us.
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Faith is not a change of physical natures but a spiritual one. We are not born again physically, but spirtually into a union that was lost because of the fall, death, physical existance.
But are unbelievers born again, into a spiritual union with the Savior?

No. They are "separated".

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Resurrections. Obviously you have gone all over the map on this.
There are two of each, one is spiritual the other physical. They align with each other.
No, they don't. By faith we are "united into His resurrection" --- spiritually. The PHYSICAL resurrection, happens at the End of the Age.
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Christ gave physical life to mankind. We all shall die once physically.
He gave PHYSICAL LIFE, but we still DIE PHYSICALLY? That makes no sense...
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It is to rid the body of sin, or the mortal state, of all of mankind, no exceptions, Christ lost none to death. All shall be raised, satan and death will be totally defeated.
We all shall be raised physically, ONLY because Christ arose from the grave and gave our mortal natures immortality. If He did not do this, ONLY those that He actually died for, could be saved spiritually as well, which also means, all that He redeemed, are also soul saved. This falls right into the classic Universalist mode, of none being lost even to hell. Actually in your view, hell cannot exist. You have no one elgible for hell. You left them all under condemnation of Adam. dust to dust.
All men are dead because all sin. THose WHO believe, are made alive in Christ THROUGH belief; thus those who refuse Jesus, choose to remain dead.
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I know that you say that the dead are raised in the end, but you have no theological answer for their resurrection. Just another of many contradictions. You want them to be judged again, but for what. They are already judged. Judged under the sin of one man, not even their own sins. Man needs life, and the free choice to sin, to stand in judgment for his sins.
No contradiction; those in the "Second Resurrection", are raised physically, but remain spiritually dead. Thus their "resurrection", is only temporary.
 
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Ben johnson

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Let's look at some of these contradictions, especially those of the "first resurrection". this is a spiritual resurrection. It occurs at the rebirth of our spiritual union with Christ which is by faith, repentance and baptism.
Nope. There is only one "protos anastasis"; it is at the end[/b] of the Tribulation, and at the start of the thousand year reign. We are raised PHYSICALLY, and will reign with Christ for a thousand years.
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Because it is a spiritual union it is possible to falter, to fall from it as did Adam. But if we do not believe or at some point leave the union with Christ, we are not condemned to a physical life, but a spiritual death. This is the Second Death, a spiritual aspect.
The "Second Death", is the Lake of Fire. Only.
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You have stated that unbelievers by some miraculous means were raised, physically. But you also stated they were raised mortals. Where is scripture is this supported within your view? then, so far, you failed to answer the question, how long will they live as mortals. Being mortal is a physical state of death, dying. Does hell cease to exist in your theology, It is not eternal in existance? When does the Bible state that those in hell will die?
Hell is eternal; the devil and his fallen angels will be tortured there forever. But the fact about Human immortality --- is that two ideas are equated: "Immortality", and "eternal life".

Those in Hell, are not called "immortal", and do not have "eternal life". Hell is "orge-wrath".

"Those who BY doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, receive eternal life;
but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, receive wrath and indignation." Rom2:6-8
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Ben:
In 1Cor15, "made alive" is "in Christ".
In Eph2 "made alive" is "through faith".
In Col2 "made alive" is also "forgiven of all sins".
In 1Pet2 "made alive" is by the Holy Spirit.


Quoted by RG:
the context will tell you, but I can now see why the context is baffling when you only believe in a spiritual restoration by Christ. But it was both, whether your view includes it or not.
I Cor 15:22 is a absolute equation. As in all men died physically in Adam, so also all men shall be made alive in Christ, physcially. Christ's work does effect a spiritual renewal, but gives physical life. Even the secondary work, the atonement does not effect a spiritual renewal. But both do affect a spiritual renewal which is by faith.
Nevertheless, the passage says "in Christ". Not everyone is.
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Eph 2:5 is the physical. It is referencing Christ's work, His Saving Grace, absent of anything man can render, it is in parentheses for that reason, because of the transition Paul makes to separate believers in verse 9 who are also saved throrugh faith, an individual man response.
No. The parenthetical reflects the "made alive". In absolute terms.
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I can now see your viewpoint since all things are spiritual, it would of necessity need to be the same, but it is not. The Incarnation did occur whether your view actually recognizes it or not, so also did the resurrection for all.
Col 2:13, Might I also point to vs 12 where it plainly says we were baptised with Him and raised with Him, THROUGTH FAITH. A spiritual participation, by baptism, Rom 6:3-4, the first resurrection, a spiritual resurrection.
However, vs 13 starts right out with referencing mankind. Mankind, everyone, in Adam was dead in sins a treaspasses and your flesh uncircumcised and having forgiven all treaspasses, having wiped out the requirements that was against us. What requirements? Death, Christ wiped out death. Death to all. Vs 11 also confirms this. The believer partakes of this by baptism and we can enter a spiritual union because Christ triumphed over sin, death, powers of principalities, (satan) the flesh, law and evil spirits. Christ triumphed over all so that we can share in the victory through faith. We don't need to perform the work of our salvation which is impossible. But the union which we were created to have with God, has been restored, the ability and capability given to all of mankind because He desires that all men come to Him. He left NONE under the power of death and sin.
Man, In God's justice, can and will be judged for his own actions, for his own sins, and not those of Adam. Christ is after all, the Second Adam, not a half an Adam, or worse, no Savior at all.
Yet not everyone is "baptised"; that is an act of faith.
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I Pet3:18, This verse is not even speaking of believers. It is solely speaking of Christ, but the analogy would fit. Chist suffered death in the flesh, but was raised by the Holy Spirit. But then so are we. we were made alive physically through Christ and made to LIVE IN Christ by the HOLY Spirit.
Not just the context of the immediate verse, but the whole Context of what Christ accomplished for mankind, actually the universe.
this raises another question regarding texts as Col 1:15-20, If Christ only reconciled man spiritually, just how is the universe a spiritual entity only? Or how does it become spiritually reconciled, by faith?
I will answer your specific questions in the next part.
Salvation is a spiritual event. Yet it spills over into the physical. The reality of Christianity, is we are NOT what we DO (as all religions claim), we DO what we ARE. Him in us, changes and regenerates us --- from our spirits through to our flesh. Our FLESH walks after His Spirit --- we cannot walk after the flesh or we must die.
 
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Ben johnson

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it does not even mention a sin nature. But it is clearly saying that death reigned even over those who did not sin according to the likness of his own transgression. In other words we inherited a nature that sins.
Exactly --- we inherited a nature that sins; hence, "sin nature".

Clearly, we sin BECAUSE death came into the world through Adam; that only means "inherited".

The inheritance ("came-condemnation") is the provision, sinning is the fulfilment. IOW, condemnation came CONDITIONALLY. To be condemned, men must SIN --- each does, each meets the condition.

In the exact same measure that condemnation came, justification came to men --- also CONDITIONALLY. The condition for justification, clearly asserted in verse 17, is "believing and receiving the Gift".
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Death reigns, we became mortal through Adam. We don't sin because Adam sinned, we sin because we are dead. Dead in sins and trespasses.
No. The nature we inheritted from Adam, that causes our sin, is why we sin. The flesh we inheritted from Adam is too weak to resist sin; that's why Christ had to assume flesh, and die. Rom8:3-4 is clear.
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We cannot even avoid sin with God's Grace. Christ did not change our human natures in this life, nor eradicate sin, or dissolve the devil. They all exist and they all ply against man, to lead him astray. It is the test we are under, just as Adam was under a test.
You're missing something profound. True we still have the "sin nature"; but we ALSO have a new spiritual nature.

"If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creation. The old has passed (is passing) away, behold all has become new." 2Cor5:17

Yet, as Paul details in Rom7, there is often a WAR between the new, and the old-but-not-gone natures. It is chapter 8 where the solution is presented; we walk by the Spirit, and not by the flesh, and our new natures thrive; but if WE walk by the flesh, then we must die.

This is why the "OSAS" debates have long interested me; we must constantly choose to walk in Him, the power of the Spirit conquering our sin.
QUoted by Ben:
You're gonna hafta find some Scriptural support for making "made-alive", apply to "non-believers". See the quotes above; "made-alive" involves believing attributes.

Quoted by RG:
I have already many times, but never as a group to you, I don't believe. But here they are:
God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; Rom 11:32; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, John 6:39. Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.
Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.
None of those verses assert "reconcilliiation apart from faith". Do they?
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Yes, absolutely. No, not in everyplace. That is the goal, the intent of God, through Christ. He desires that all men be saved, of necessity it is encumbent upon God to give life to mankind so that He could even have ONE believer. If the dead are all raised, it is because of Christ. All shall have immortality, eternal life, but not all will enjoy it WITH CHRIST. Man needs life even to live in hell and experience a spiritual disconnection. A dead human being cannot live in hell. Very simple to understand.
Humans were not dead before Christ (unless they died). This is the problem with Calvinism; a spiritually-dead person CAN believe. And that's not "Pelagianism", nor "Semi-Pelagianism".

You're also missing the fact that "eternal life", is given to the righteous; the opposite of eternal life, is "wrath and indignation".;

In Rom2:6-8, do those in verse 8 receive "eternal life"? No.
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If you want it to be as you think, vs 22 or vs 23 would be superflous. Vs 22 is all of mankind which is verified in many other texts, see the group above. But there is favoristism, those IN Christ which is different than made alive in Christ. It is those that LIVE in Christ, a whole different thing, the same actually as you have in Eph 1:5-9. One is part of the larger. But those already dead who LIVED in Christ then those who are physically alive at His coming.
Vs 26 even sums it up. ALL death, that in inclusive, no one was missed, Death was under Adam. Life was under Christ. Christ is the total victor over death, not a partial victor. Christ does indeed rule and satan has been totally, completely defeated. Your view leaves satan still in power, ruling over your mortal beings in hell.
Afraid not; "death" and "Hades", are thown into the Lake of Fire --- and that is along with all the unbelievers who are thrown in.

You're perceiving that "physical death was defeated with Christ's death and resurrection"; but death continues, until it's thrown into the Lake of Fire.

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That is because I have never stated, nor even implied that unbelievers are IN Christ. You are associating any life as ONLY a spiritual life and it is secondary to the whole gospel. Death is the central, most important problem to mankind. We were sentenced to extinction, nothingness. If anything is going to happen with mankind, mankind needs life first. Believers of any stripe are moot unless one has life, a physical existance.
First, it is not an unbeliever that is made alive, it is mankind that is made alive.
And that's the problem; if all mankind is "made alive", then unbelievers ARE "made alive". Nowhere in Scripture is "made-alive", asserted separate from "in Christ".
 
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Ben johnson

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the short summary of Christ's Work is that Christ made us (mankind) alive(physcially) so that we might LIVE IN Him (spiritually). If Christ was not raised, then none of the dead are raised either, which negates any eternal life period. Death reigns and will always reign. But Christ gave life to mankind, overcoming death, so that each individual human being can decide to either LIVE in Christ or apart from Christ. But to do either, one must have life. We would all be dead, including Christ. This is what I Cor 15:14-19 is so explicitedly stating.
No, it's not; our faith is in Christ, an His resurrection; BY that resurrection, WE are resurrected. Thus, "If He be not raised from the dead, your FAITH is in vain".
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that is a contradiction. first, salvation from sin does not grant immortality.
Yes, it does; it's one and the same. Salvation is "Christ in us" --- which causes us to be regenerated, AND to pursue righteousness rather than sin.
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It ONLY grants a spiritual union because Christ the High Priest of His Own self sacrifice can forgive sins so we can exist IN Christ, be reconciled to HIM by and through faith.
And yet, all those things coexist, or do not exist at all.
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If that was the ONLY thing Christ accomplished on the Cross He would be a total failure. He failed to conquer the primary problem of mankind. Death. We have already been sentenced to death. Every single human being was condemned already. How emphatic can I make that statement. Christ overcame that judgement of death. It is death that cause us to sin, but it is LIFE or immortality that makes it possible for God to have a spiritual union that can begin in this life because of the atonement, but continue in the next life because He gave us all immortality.
There is no way, anywhere in Scripture that states we recieve immortality by faith. A spiritual aspect cannot grant a physical state. It can grant a spiritual state which it does, eternal life WITH CHRIST.
The "immortality", is consequential to the union with Christ. And THAT, is by faith.
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It is impossible for Christ not to have saved all of mankind.
Salvation is only for believers. Universalists misunderstand 1Tim4:10; "God is the Savior of all men, above-all believers" --- does not assert "all are saved". It asserts the provision ("Savior of all"), and the fulfillment ("malista/chiefly/above-all believers").

Identical to 1Jn2:2, He is the propitiation not only of US (believers!), but also the WHOLE WORLD (does not deny that belief is required for the actual propitiation).
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That fact that death was the sentence whereby man became mortal, this nature is passed through our natures. Meaning man is consubstantial with each other. A change in one essence is a change in all those that possess that essence. this is why God allowed satan to impose death through our natures because God knew also that ONLY Christ, His Son, could and would be born of man, so that He could assume that same fallen human nature and raise it to life, immortality, incorruptibility. Christ cannot be selective in the mode God chose to either impose death or grant Life to mankind.
If you can show how Christ can save some and not all, by His Incarnation, not just man, but even the universe, I would be interested in the texts you use and your formulation of the theoogy to explain them.
The "texts" I use, simply speak to the essence of salvation; we become "begotten children", Jesus and the Spirit indwell the person bodily. And that ONLY happens by belief. John1:12 speaks of how one gains admittance to adoption into God's family; by believing and receiving Christ.
 
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