a challenge for creationists

[blader]

Originally posted by npetreley


Actually, the Hebrew for "day" is yowm and the meaning of the word must be taken from the context. The context is the description "evening and morning", which implies a normal day, not an age.

Hm. That's a good point. Kenneth Miller had a clever way of dealing with the issue, but I can't recall exactly how. [/QUOTE]

Because the context of the quote from Jesus (and the section in Romans, too) rules out allegory.

From the passage that was actually provided, I had no problem coming with an allegory.

You didn't give a reference so I have no idea what you're talking about. I assume you know what ESP means, right? I don't have it.

Sorry. Here it is:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by blader

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

You can find a better translation of the Hebrew in the New King James:

30 Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established, It shall not be moved.

The word "moved" is "mowt", which is translated "shaken," "removed," "fallen," etc. It means the earth "isn't going anywhere" in the same sense that one uses that phrase to describe something that isn't going to fall apart anytime soon. It doesn't mean the earth doesn't move, and the context make that pretty clear. In other words, these verses are saying, "G~d is not to be trifled with. G~d doesn't exactly make stuff out of paper mache, you know. For example, He is powerful enough to have made the earth big and solid, such that it ain't going anywhere anytime soon unless He says so."

That's the message in all your verses.

 

[bonobo]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
.The Lord provided the Water and the plants for food. 

So God provided a special kind of water where he made sure that no animal, no matter how small, was included, but all the necessary minerals where? Interesting theory!

 

[bonobo]

Athlon4all

You have not answered my question about the flat earth! Here are a few verses that clearly contradict the fact that the earth is a sphere moving through space:

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory

Isaiah 11:12 And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth

Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

1 Samuel 2:8 For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, And He set the world on them.

Job 9:6 Who shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble

Psalm 75:3 The earth and all who dwell in it melt; It is I who have firmly set its pillars

So what is your view on these verses?

 

[Athlon4all]

bonobo, sorry I totally forgot about your question. Anyhow, I think that they are figurative, although I am not certain.

 

[Sinai]

Originally posted by npetreley:


Actually, the Hebrew for "day" is yowm and the meaning of the word must be taken from the context. The context is the description "evening and morning", which implies a normal day, not an age.

Good point, Nick. But "a normal day" is not the only implication that may be drawn from the closing of each yom's activities by noting there was evening and there was morning, since that phrase is also a Hebrew way of noting that there was movement from disorder to order. Thus, it would be just as valid to note that the first chapter of Genesis tells us how God brought order out of chaos.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Isn't the most literal interpretation of YWM "stage?" I've heard that it can mean anything from "day" (stages of time) to "generation" (stages of family).

 

[Didaskomenos]

The most common usage of yom was for "day." We say things like, "in this day of hate and violence," which does what yom did for the Hebrews. Most likely it was a figurative usage of the word "day," but meant to be taken as a literal day within the myth itself.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Sinai


Good point, Nick. But "a normal day" is not the only implication that may be drawn from the closing of each yom's activities by noting there was evening and there was morning, since that phrase is also a Hebrew way of noting that there was movement from disorder to order. Thus, it would be just as valid to note that the first chapter of Genesis tells us how God brought order out of chaos.

I certainly wouldn't rule that out as a possibility, but it isn't the most obvious meaning. When it is laid out in Exodus 20 (The Ten Commandments), it says, "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy." Again, this could be saying that G~d laid the foundation of the week and the sabbath with His six symbolic days of creation, but the plainer reading of the text would be that G~d actually accomplished creation in six literal 24-hour days.

I happen to think it's 6 literal days, and there are several possible explanations for the universe either being (from our perspective) or seeming (from anyone's perspective) far older than that. But I wouldn't lose a nanosecond's worth of sleep if I turned out to be wrong.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Nick! That's actually a reasonable statement! I'm so proud of you  

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Isn't the most literal interpretation of YWM "stage?" I've heard that it can mean anything from "day" (stages of time) to "generation" (stages of family).

It has several meanings, but a typical usage with which you might be familiar is Yom Kippur (same word as yowm here), which is the Day of Atonement (more literally it is likely to mean the Day of the Mercy Seat, the covering of the Ark of the Covenant), and in this case it is a literal day.

 

[bonobo]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
bonobo, sorry I totally forgot about your question. Anyhow, I think that they are figurative, although I am not certain.

The original question was: Do you or do you not believe the earth is flat? If you do not believe the earth is flat, then how can you not be certain if these passages are to be taken literally or not?

Please enlighten me!

P.S.: I also invite others to answer this question.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by bonobo

The original question was: Do you or do you not believe the earth is flat? If you do not believe the earth is flat, then how can you not be certain if these passages are to be taken literally or not?

Please enlighten me!

P.S.: I also invite others to answer this question.

So let's take a look at what Stephen Jay Gould said and see what it must mean if we took it literally.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19369

In other words, in both cases, the approach is so ridiculous that, IMO, your question doesn't even deserve an answer.

 

[bonobo]

Originally posted by npetreley


So let's take a look at what Stephen Jay Gould said and see what it must mean if we took it literally.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19369

In other words, in both cases, the approach is so ridiculous that, IMO, your question doesn't even deserve an answer.

I suppose that I am not meant to understand your post. So I will just gladly ignore it, thus preventing myself from using words not appropriate for this forum...

 

[truthinchrist]

Originally posted by Athlon4all
I am not a scientist, but I will say this that there is plenty of true evidence against evolution, a chief one being that Mutation's and Natural Selection both decrease genetic information, not increase like evolution claims.

In any case, even if there was all the "scientific" or "worldly" "evidence" for evolution, I wouldn't believe it because the word of God is truth, not man's opinion's and man's research.

But, true science evidence points to creation, not microbes-to-man evolution.

Strange.
Science points to nothing, that is the nature of it. the scientists make the judgement.

Explain the Galapagos finch in terms of Creation. (in relation to different species filling different ecological niches on the mainland)

Explain the Human eye or Knee in terms of Evolution.

both are impossibilities.

If " Mans opinion" is worthless, why do you express an opinion at all.

Evolution is a theory of how we got here - it is truth, because it is testable and repeatable based upon the evidence (speciation and genetical differentiation)
Creation is a theory of how we got here - God's theory, so it has a little more weight behind it. But God invented the DNA, governs how it mutates, employs evolutionary schemes in His creations. God is obviously repeatable, though the testability of Him requires a few setting up exercises.

so Evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive. they are complementary to one another.

if the Rock strata were all laid down in the flood, where did the sand and mud come FROM??? we see no big holes in the strata.

if the earth is only 6000 years old and a flood caused all this rock strata etc. explain a monument in the sands of egypt (where there is no rain) whethered by gentle rainfall over at least a thousand years. This monument attests to a time 12000 years ago (by the symbology of it's shape and position).

if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, where are all the other intelligent species that should have evolved in that time. why only a few bones in the ground?

neither evolutionary theory, nor pure biblical creationism have the complete answer
Only God has the answer, and he will let us know when the time is right.

until then, argue away, but make sure that you honor Him in all you do,
for even if Hell is a myth, i would not want to spend my eternity there given the mere possibility that it might be a true place.

your Brother in Christ
David

 

[AV1611VET]

If you believe all life was created at the same time, show us a fossil angiosperm in the Cambrian period.

Angiosperms were created in Genesis 1:

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

[MoonLancer]

for even if Hell is a myth, i would not want to spend my eternity there given the mere possibility that it might be a true place.

that's a false dichotomy. You make the argument that one should believe in god because of the possibility of hell being real. Well theirs many religions each with their own consequences for not believing in that religion. pascals wager clearly doesn't account for this. its a very risky gamble.

better to stand the line between them all then choose one and distance yourself from all the rest.

 

[Skaloop]

that's a false dichotomy. You make the argument that one should believe in god because of the possibility of hell being real. Well theirs many religions each with thier own consequences for not beleaving in that religain. pascals wadger clearly doesent account for this. its a very risky gamble.

better to stand the line between them all then choose one and distance yourself from all the rest.

This thread is over 6 years old! Let it die!

 

[BananaSlug]

 

[sbvera13]