A Catholic Discussion on Patriotism & Nationalism

[Shiloh Raven]

Before I even begin with my OP, I think a reminder that TLT is for liberal Catholics is necessary. It is against this specific forum's rules to argue or debate with the Catholics of this forum. TLT has been experiencing a recent influx of arguments and debating from non-Catholic guests. Please be aware of this forum's Statement of Purpose and the Congregational Forum Restrictions.

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And now with all that said and out of the way (and hopefully it will be respected), I will continue now with what I would like to discuss in this thread. I asked the following questions (I edited the last question) months ago in the Liberal Christian forum, but I thought I would ask these questions here in TLT now. Please keep in mind that I am asking for a Catholic perspective that will fit the premise of this forum (liberal). Please be aware I am not only referring to American Catholics either. I am interested in what Catholics in other countries other than America feel about nationalism and patriotism. I am rather curious to know if nationalism and patriotism in other countries are as fervent and vigorous as they are in America. Thank you for your answers.

My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

My final question: Do you think children should be taught patriotism before they are able to understand the concept?

 

[Genersis]

Well, I'm not Catholic, but I was thinking about Patriotism and Nationalism last week, so I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts.

I've always been confident in my opposition to Nationalism. It's at least an inward looking "My people first!" way of thinking. Usually reinforced with ideas of superiority(explicit, or more often, implicit). Nationalism also seems to come hand in hand with regressivism, that is, the idea that recent progress on civil and human rights or international cooperation is responsible for *their*(not any minority, or demographic too dissimilar to themselves) nation's fall from grace.

Recently though, I've found myself disliking patriotism also.
It comes across as a vacuous argument-free way of manipulating people. "Do X for your country.", "I do X because I love my country"

But it seem to be meaningless guff(if not to the person spouting such phrases).
I think most people think their views would better their country if widely adopted, and that their views are an integral part of their country's patriotic heritage; while the people they disagree with are deemed to misunderstand what their country is about/stands for.
Be it Trump supporters taking back THEIR county from all those unamerican liberal elites, to liberals who argue that tolerance and equality are core American values that Conservatives just don't understand.
Both points of view being naive.

I think people should avoid being proud of things with as convoluted and bloody histories as countries. Work towards your own successes to be proud of, build a country you can be proud of in the present.

As for the latter two questions:
I'm not comfortable with any unearned pledges of allegiance, for anyone, to anything. Very much so when the pledge is mandatory.

Considering such, I don't think children should be anywhere near patriotism. If they are being taught to be patriotic, I would be very curious to know what views and beliefs are being instilled in them in the guise of patriotism.

 

[archer75]

I have heard the following distinction:

Patriotism is love for your country.

Nationalism is hatred of all other countries.

With those definitions, patriotism is very appropriate for all humans and nationalism is appropriate for none.

For children, who understand things mostly in terms of their family, love and respect for their family should be shown and taught, but hatred for other families should not be. In fact, it should be shown that despite the pre-existing goodness of our family, we can learn from others and love them as well.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I don't feel properly equipped to give a comprehensive reply, but I thought that this quote might contribute to the conversation in some way:

Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

[...]No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community in a noble love of freedom and loyalty to their country. What We object to is the voluntary and systematic antagonism raised between national education and religious duty. That is why we tell the young: Sing your hymns to freedom, but do not forget the freedom of the children of God. Do not drag the nobility of that freedom in the mud of sin and sensuality. He who sings hymns of loyalty to this terrestrial country should not, for that reason, become unfaithful to God and His Church, or a deserter and traitor to His heavenly country.

- Mit Brennender Sorge (March 14, 1937) | PIUS XI

 

[AlexDTX]

My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

My final question: Do you think children should be taught patriotism before they are able to understand the concept?

I don't see a difference between Catholic and Protestant on this issue, but my point of view disagrees with the general consensus.
If Christ is our Lord and Savior, we are citizens of the Kingdom of God. As such we are to be regarded as pilgrims and strangers in a strange land. We are also called to be ambassadors of Christ to a lost and dying world. To me, that means nationalism and patriotism are not appropriate for born again believers. We can not serve God and mammon, nor can we serve two countries. As Jesus said, we will be a house divided.

Of course, as guests in another country we obey the laws of the land and we help those that we can help, but that is not the same thing as nationalism or patriotism. The distinction is that we should know what the laws of the land are so we can be obedient. In the United States, the highest law of the land is the US Constitution. All legislation has to be constitutional, or the legislation is invalid. If one does not know what is constitutional one will accept any government decree. Every ambassador must first know the government of their homeland (in the case of Christianity that is the government of God) as well as the government of the diplomatic country.

This makes the line between patriotism, as is usually thought of, and Christian diplomacy a very fine line that few recognize.

As for pledging our allegiance to a country, that, too is a difficult question to answer. A blind pledge is out of the question. One can nevertheless pledge allegiance to all things that agree with the government of God, for they then further work of God on Earth.

The Earth and its fullness thereof belong to God. That means all governments belong to God, but that does not mean all governments create laws that obey God. We are called to be lights on a hill so governments, and people, will know what laws obey God.

 

[Martinius]

My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

My final question: Do you think children should be taught patriotism before they are able to understand the concept?

Patriotism: Yes, everyone should love and respect their country. However, blindly accepting that what your country or its government does is always right is not good. Also, it is NOT unpatriotic to point out and try to change what is wrong. I went through that during the Viet Nam War.

Nationalism: Bad in general. Leads to Fascism, war, racism, oppression and all kinds of evil stuff.

Christians who are citizens of a country should pledge allegiance to it, but again there are limits. How I perceive my allegiance may be different than how you perceive your allegiance. Again, allegiance doesn't mean to be in total agreement with. Allegiance to God, your faith and what is right comes first, before anything else.

Children and patriotism: I recall as a young child learning things that later turned out to not be true, lots of stuff about our founding fathers and American heroes that were mostly legends. I know I became disillusioned later when I found out that the stuff they were feeding me was wrong. I had a good American History teacher in high school who pointed out what the text book left out, things that might put our country in a bad light. Then in college I learned even more that burst some balloons. I realized that we had been fed a lot of propaganda disguised as history.

Children should learn about their country and its history. But not be told fables and legends and incomplete information in place of real history. And as they get older, smarter and wiser they need to be able to look critically at what they read and understand that the points of view of an author, teacher or their school system may color the "facts" they are given. By high school they should have learned how to investigate and analyze events and facts. They need to consider why things happened, what the causes might have been, why certain people did certain things, and what the controversies were. The same applies to the various systems in our country and society, such as economic and political systems. Otherwise, we leave our children ignorant and vulnerable to charlatans.

 

[Fantine]

It's 6 a.m.

People around here may have things skewed because they pledge allegiance to the flag while they fly the stars and bars next to it. The civil war is over, folks.

Patriotism isn't my country right or wrong. It's loving my country enough to strive to make it great again (given the detour it took in 2016).

Children should be taught about people like Eugene Debs, Susan B Anthony and MLK in the context of patriotism so that they can understand what the pledge should be.

 

[AlexDTX]

I would another point to my comment. There is a global war going on involving all nations. As a Christian my allegiance is to the Kingdom of God. This Kingdom has kingdom citizens as pilgrims and ambassadors in all nations. The global war is spearheaded by Satan and uses people in all nations who tend to control government and private enterprises. They genuinely believe that a New World Order is best for everyone because they have a superiority complex thinking they know what is best. People are pawns in this war and often do not know they in the war or are being used by the agents of Satan's New World Order.

Patriotism and nationalism will blind Christians to the real enemies of the Kingdom and cause them to misunderstand that Kingdom brothers live in all nations who are not our enemy. Even the pawns of the New World Order are not our enemies. Our warfare is spiritual and we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers.

So, Christians need to be very discerning regarding allegiance, patriotism and nationalism.