A case for libertarian socialism?

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private


George Orwell had always been a critical man who challenged political views of the establishment and throughout his life he had always been on the side of the people and their welfare. It was actually in the Spanish Civil War however when Orwell became a true believer of socialism.

He wrote a book called A Homage To Catalonia about his time in revolutionary Catalonia whilst serving in the socialist and anarchist forces. He wrote to his schoolfriend Cyril Connolly from revolutionary Barcelona in 1937 describing the experience…

"I have seen wonderful things and at last really believe in Socialism, which I never did before."

Witnessing the success of these anarchic communities he became a true believer in socialism. Unfortunately these communities would later be overrun and suppressed by the nationalist forces, he barely left alive after being shot through the neck by a fascist and being the possible target. He was also monitored for some time by the British government for his communistic views. It should be mentioned however that George Orwell was a staunch anti-Stalinist, as were all libertarian-socialist.

Pictured below, George Orwell and Spanish revolutionaries.
 

PeaceJoyLove

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,504
1,145
62
Nova Scotia
✟66,922.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Is that not seeking with both eyes on the world? What has it to do with the Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world as an over here or over there, but within you? The mystery hidden for the ages now being revealed, as Paul said..."Christ in you, the hope of glory."

If you are not free indeed then the son has not set you free...
 
Upvote 0

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Is that not seeking with both eyes on the world? What has it to do with the Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world as an over here or over there, but within you? The mystery hidden for the ages now being revealed, as Paul said..."Christ in you, the hope of glory."

If you are not free indeed then the son has not set you free...
Wut!? Lol, one cannot deny the obvious implications and realities of the abuses of world, opression and the host of social ramifications it creates, like poverty, starvation, mental and emotional health problems, crime, strife.

It's good because more then anything it suits the West, and is in line with many ideals and values from the age of enlightenment, whilsts relying fundementally on the idea of decentralizing power structures, all things Chomsky is an expert on.

The West will only further turn the rest of the world into it's enemy if it persists on not being or at least trying to be liberal at all. It is also very anti-bolshevik, or communist in the Soviet Union sense. Much of Chomsky's philoshopy hinges on the idea that human beings by their innate nature are their best when they are allowed to be free and independent agents who can actively seek to fulfill their inner most desires for creativity, and their freedom.


With capitalisn, and the rich and wealthy being in largely control of most resources, and landownership, one cannot actively utilize their basic rights as sentient veings to exist or flourish. They are forced into land where they are forced into exploitation or less they starve and most work continually simply to eat and exist. One cannot simly move to the woods, build a cabin and hunt deer, nor frolick in the wods or anything, lol.
 
Upvote 0

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Is that not seeking with both eyes on the world? What has it to do with the Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world as an over here or over there, but within you? The mystery hidden for the ages now being revealed, as Paul said..."Christ in you, the hope of glory."

If you are not free indeed then the son has not set you free...
Oh plus I thought, like now with liberalism, socialism, it totally isn't working and has almost done more harm then good, so I am not completely sold but I don't think it should be completely discarded either. What is the one of the biggest causes of social strife and conflict in the world? Well, if enough people stopped obeying the people in power, then they'd lose said power.

"0] It asserts that a society based on freedom and justice can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[11] Libertarian socialists advocate for decentralized structures based on direct democracy and federal or confederal associations such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions and workers' councils.[12][13]"

Again, this is only socialism, but for example, we would be able to at least feed the majority of earth's population if we were to take more control of food production, which is severly limited at this point, the world over.

There are at least non-violent options or courses one can take before even taking into consideration the options of force. I think with the "libertarian" aspect, I am not sure if I'd say the workers should own all aspects of production (and, it even says "some of the means of peoduction" I am not sure it literally means the workers control everything) they would simply have more control over their livliehood and perhaps public life in their own demographics at the perhaps. Capitalism at some point will honestly lead to more conflict, strife, and the degragation of the enviornment, and is just generally unsustainable and there will just be an endless amount of class warfare in the future, if not the total annihalhation. It might not be us now, but it will be in the future. We at least need to own things like water and food production I think. With capitalism and business, ironically, this is what it accomplishes anyway. The means of production is spread by commerce and business, but instead they trade resources instead of evenly or fairly distributing them. The only problem with this is, it (now at least) relies primarily on crony capitalisms who may not even fully have the workers interests, or have really any education at all to make large or grand decisions on the livliehood of a great percentage of the earth's population. With libertarian socialism at least there can still be business, it's just as well they would decentralize institutions, which would function the same as business in that it stops large bodies of power from gaining all the control, which in a sense is what preserves independence or freedom and likewise to ideas liken to classical liberalism which is partially agian, are ideas traditionally associated with individual rights and democracy.


Even with Christianity, "judgement day" lol, things like that, I am not entirely sure I agree with the interpertation that we'll destroy the entire world.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PeaceJoyLove

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,504
1,145
62
Nova Scotia
✟66,922.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Oh plus I thought, like now with liberalism, socialism, it totally isn't working and has almost done more harm then good, so I am not completely sold but I don't think it should be completely discarded either. What is the one of the biggest causes of social strife and conflict in the world? Well, if enough people stopped obeying the people in power, then they'd lose said power.

"0] It asserts that a society based on freedom and justice can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[11] Libertarian socialists advocate for decentralized structures based on direct democracy and federal or confederal associations such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions and workers' councils.[12][13]"

Again, this is only socialism, but for example, we would be able to at least feed the majority of earth's population if we were to take more control of food production, which is severly limited at this point, the world over.

There are at least non-violent options or courses one can take before even taking into consideration the options of force. I think with the "libertarian" aspect, I am not sure if I'd say the workers should own all aspects of production (and, it even says "some of the means of peoduction" I am not sure it literally means the workers control everything) they would simply have more control over their livliehood and perhaps public life in their own demographics at the perhaps. Capitalism at some point will honestly lead to more conflict, strife, and the degragation of the enviornment, and is just generally unsustainable and there will just be an endless amount of class warfare in the future, if not the total annihalhation. It might not be us now, but it will be in the future. We at least need to own things like water and food production I think. With capitalism and business, ironically, this is what it accomplishes anyway. The means of production is spread by commerce and business, but instead they trade resources instead of evenly or fairly distributing them. The only problem with this is, it (now at least) relies primarily on crony capitalisms who may not even fully have the workers interests, or have really any education at all to make large or grand decisions on the livliehood of a great percentage of the earth's population. With libertarian socialism at least there can still be business, it's just as well they would decentralize institutions, which would function the same as business in that it stops large bodies of power from gaining all the control, which in a sense is what preserves independence or freedom and likewise to ideas liken to classical liberalism which is partially agian, are ideas traditionally associated with individual rights and democracy.


Even with Christianity, "judgement day" lol, things like that, I am not entirely sure I agree with the interpertation that we'll destroy the entire world.

I have found most interpretations of the revelation of Jesus Christ have nothing to do with where Christ is being revealed at...with many still observing as an over here or over there with the five senses as there are not many that would consider the end of the world as an end of a way of thinking.

The Day of the LORD goes from darkness/Night to light/Day...before He ever hung the sun and moon. The truth being revealed in within...our God consciousness. Our 'eyesight'/perception being restored ...that we might 'see' as HE does. Man's perception is by the five senses (looking outwardly), the spirit of Christ dwells within...as is the Kingdom within...What is being destroyed? Our own soul (to lose it to find it again)...

Isaiah 6, to 'see' this is amazing...God's glory fills the whole earth...there is nothing that exists that did not come from Him...to execute the plan He purposed in Himself from the beginning. All paths that come from heaven lead (back) to heaven. In the beginning, Adam was one, alone, until God placed him in a deep slumber, wounded his side to take a woman (a picture of our soul...who prepared the feast that he ate) ...a dividing asunder...one became two...Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The two must become One (again)...He who has the bride is the bridegroom. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Door (back)...He was pierced in the side for our healing...The Spirit is our 'new' helper and God is our husband (Isaiah 54:5)

Romans 7 speaks to this duality within (mind of Christ and carnal mind of man)...perception being everything...In John 17, Jesus said "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:... And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
He can only give us what we hope is possible. With God all things are possible...with man, impossible.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.


The darker the night (of soul) the brighter the light...Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
 
Upvote 0

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I have found most interpretations of the revelation of Jesus Christ have nothing to do with where Christ is being revealed at...with many still observing as an over here or over there with the five senses as there are not many that would consider the end of the world as an end of a way of thinking.

The Day of the LORD goes from darkness/Night to light/Day...before He ever hung the sun and moon. The truth being revealed in within...our God consciousness. Our 'eyesight'/perception being restored ...that we might 'see' as HE does. Man's perception is by the five senses (looking outwardly), the spirit of Christ dwells within...as is the Kingdom within...What is being destroyed? Our own soul (to lose it to find it again)...

Isaiah 6, to 'see' this is amazing...God's glory fills the whole earth...there is nothing that exists that did not come from Him...to execute the plan He purposed in Himself from the beginning. All paths that come from heaven lead (back) to heaven. In the beginning, Adam was one, alone, until God placed him in a deep slumber, wounded his side to take a woman (a picture of our soul...who prepared the feast that he ate) ...a dividing asunder...one became two...Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The two must become One (again)...He who has the bride is the bridegroom. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Door (back)...He was pierced in the side for our healing...The Spirit is our 'new' helper and God is our husband (Isaiah 54:5)

Romans 7 speaks to this duality within (mind of Christ and carnal mind of man)...perception being everything...In John 17, Jesus said "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:... And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
He can only give us what we hope is possible. With God all things are possible...with man, impossible.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.


The darker the night (of soul) the brighter the light...Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Well dvdn in the future then, I think we would probably have to be more realistically soxialist or even communist, but in a natural way that doesn't have the state and a ruling class looming over everyone, because the only thing I think keeping everyone from living more peacefully I guess is all the greedy seflish people who don't want to live in peace...

I mean personally I think they'll all just destroy each other anyway. That's pretty much what it is when I lok at the world and even capitalism, they want to compete with each other so much but for what exactly? If fit's taken to too much of an extreme does it not become something else entirely? What is it then that they desire or want, what is the prize or treasure, life? They want more thrn anything life and they do not even realize it? I would say it is God that they desire but are too spiritually immature to realize it.

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PeaceJoyLove

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,504
1,145
62
Nova Scotia
✟66,922.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well dvdn in the future then, I think we would probably have to be more realistically soxialist or even communist, but in a natural way that doesn't have the state and a ruling class looming over everyone, because the only thing I think keeping everyone from living more peacefully I guess is all the greedy seflish people who don't want to live in peace...

I mean personally I think they'll all just destroy each other anyway. That's pretty much what it is when I lok at the world and even capitalism, they want to compete with each other so much but for what exactly? If fit's taken to too much of an extreme does it not become something else entirely? What is it then that they desire or want, what is the prize or treasure, life? They want more thrn anything life and they do not even realize it? I would say it is God that they desire but are too spiritually immature to realize it.

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him."

"dvdn"??

Everything to do with the Kingdom and God is a "what was, what is and what is to come"...depending where the one looking is 'seeing' from...for it is "every man in his own order"...this process of revealing.

When you say "I think they'll all just destroy each other anyway" is part of the plan God purposed in Himself from the beginning. There is nothing that exists that did not come from HIM for that very purpose...There is a son of man and son of God who for a time are perceived as something outside of our being, then the battle within is between the two who really have always been ONE from the beginning. I'd say it is God they desire, too... but they have not yet awakened from the slumber to 'see'...

Socialism and Communism are striving's of man...a building a tower and the Truth becomes Babel/babble. When God reveals the truth within us, we can 'see' it all works together for good...His kingdom has always been (here), it is just that some cannot (yet) 'see' it (again)...
 
Upvote 0

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"libertarian socialist" sounds like a perfect oxymoron.
No, it's not at all if you actually read the theory.

It is no more an oxy moron then one who considers themself a far right capitalist libertarian, lol. Have fun living in conditions not too far removed from a dictatorship with only crony capitalism as ones over lord.
 
Upvote 0

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"dvdn"??

Everything to do with the Kingdom and God is a "what was, what is and what is to come"...depending where the one looking is 'seeing' from...for it is "every man in his own order"...this process of revealing.

When you say "I think they'll all just destroy each other anyway" is part of the plan God purposed in Himself from the beginning. There is nothing that exists that did not come from HIM for that very purpose...There is a son of man and son of God who for a time are perceived as something outside of our being, then the battle within is between the two who really have always been ONE from the beginning. I'd say it is God they desire, too... but they have not yet awakened from the slumber to 'see'...

Socialism and Communism are striving's of man...a building a tower and the Truth becomes Babel/babble. When God reveals the truth within us, we can 'see' it all works together for good...His kingdom has always been (here), it is just that some cannot (yet) 'see' it (again)...
So God created man, so man could destroy himself, in a quasi-survivalist Darwininan draconian sense?

Do you really have the scientific knowledge or background of understanding to really altogether adequately say whether or no tthat socialism or communisn is babbel/babel.

Oh, I totally agree, there is this obvious shortcoming and innante flaw of mankind to do such a thing, but how is this any removed in capitalism then it is in socialism? Capitalism is like a runaway train that basically only creates the same same conditions so that is can prevorbially be destroyed each and everytime because no one wants to stop the train even though they're not even sure of the route or direction is needed, they just keep letting the train go full stream ahead and then play guilible and pretend they don't know why it keeps going on this course headed for disaster?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PeaceJoyLove

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,504
1,145
62
Nova Scotia
✟66,922.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So God created man, so man could destroy himself, in a quasi-survivalist Darwininan draconian sense?

Do you really have the scientific knowledge or background of understanding to really altogether adequately say whether or no tthat socialism or communisn is babbel/babel.

Oh, I totally agree, there is this obvious shortcoming and innante flaw of mankind to do such a thing, but how is this any removed in capitalism then it is in socialism? Capitalism is like a runaway train that basically only creates the same same conditions so that is can prevorbially be destroyed each and everytime because no one wants to stop the train even though they're not even sure of the route or direction is needed, they just keep letting the train go full stream ahead and then play guilible and pretend they don't know why it keeps going on this course headed for disaster?

I don't infer anything in the physical sense. The flesh profiteth nothing. As scripture states, there is nothing that exists that did not come from God to fulfill HIS purpose and plan...that being "Be still and know that I am God" or as some translations put it, ""Cease striving and know that I am God"; "Stop your fighting and know..."; or as Young's Literal Translation puts it, "Desist, and know that I am God, I am exalted among nations, I am exalted in the earth." Man strives to build a tower up to heaven, when the truth be that unless a seed fall to the ground and die, it remains a seed. But if it dies, it bear much fruit. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him... (John 12:24-26)

I have no scientific knowledge or background, but He has brought me to the place that I truly KNOW/understand God in the depths of my very being...revealed by the spirit that indwells us all. Jesus said of the government of the time that arrested Him,"You would have no authority over Me unless it were given to you from above." Romans 13:1-6...there is no government in place that has not come to be because of God's plan and purpose to be fulfilled...For all things work together for good, whether we can 'see' it or not...

In The LORD's prayer, "Thy Kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." has everything to do with how and where we are perceiving from...To see/perceive God's glory fills the whole earth, now, is to be single of eye and know that there has only ever been ONE...Father of us all, God who fills all in all.

That which is being destroyed is our dust realm perception...for the truth is within and for a time, we perceive from the mind of man, though (as Paul said) we have the mind of Christ. It is to do with consciousness of God in relation to a soul found...that must be first lost...or a scattering before being gathered together (again). To be "raised up on the last day" is to be lifted up to 'see' as Jesus saw, as a son of the most high God.

To take thought is to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...reasoning with that which is outside of our being (like the woman in the garden). I may have already mentioned this in our exchange, we are likened (in scripture) as trees in God's garden...and God declared all that He had made as very good, then He rested on the 7th day. Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The woman prepared the feast that Adam ate and everything changed with his perception/eyesight...

We are promised to enter His rest, all complete and declared good...evil being darkness...when God's glory fills the temple that we are, not made with human hands...be Light...and The Day of LORD goes from darkness to light...and when our eye is single, we be full of that LIGHT...
 
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟167,609.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
"libertarian socialist" sounds like a perfect oxymoron.
The term "libertarian" in the past referred to strains of anti-authoritarian socialist and anarchist thought. The free market connotations didn't come until the mid 20th century.
 
Upvote 0

BlackSabbath

Active Member
Dec 31, 2017
167
22
31
Kelowna
✟17,849.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The term "libertarian" in the past referred to strains of anti-authoritarian socialist and anarchist thought. The free market connotations didn't come until the mid 20th century.
Yes, the fascists and communists both had disdain for it in the early 20th century.
 
Upvote 0