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A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism.

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by Bible Highlighter, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism:

    Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

    List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:
    1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

    2. Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

    3. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

    4. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

    5. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

    6. Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).

    7. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

    8. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    9. James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

    10. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    11. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

    12. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    13. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    14. Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    15. Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).

    16. Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

    17. Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

    18. Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

    19. Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

    20. Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

    21. John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

    22. John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

    23. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    24. The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    25. John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

    26. Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

    27. Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

    28. Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

    29. Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    30. James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

    31. Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

    32. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    33. Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).

    34. Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

    35. Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).

    36. Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).

    37. Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

    38. Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)

    39. Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

    40. Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

    41. Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

    42. Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).

    43. Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    44. The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).

    45. Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).

    46. John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).

    47. Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    48. Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.

    49. Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

    50. John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

    Real world example:

    An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping. He hoping one day somebody else will stop him.

    If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

    Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

    For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
    For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

    For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

    But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

    Anyways, here are some more….

    Common Objections to Sinless Perfectionism (With Answers That Resolve them):

    #1. Objection: So if a believer has not reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism, does that mean they are not saved?

    Answer: No. Sinless Perfectionism is merely the goal for a believer’s life (Philippians 3:12). The Scriptures talk about how this is a possible goal for us to achieve while we are still yet alive. But the problem with denying the Bible’s teaching on Sinless Perfectionism is that it suggest that a person's goal or aim is not to try and be perfect before GOD but it is to still hold onto sin on some level (even if it is a sin done on rare occasion). For can a serial killer who comes to Christ still murder as long as he does so every ten years (chocking it up to his will is weak and that even believers sin)? Does not Paul essentially say that we used to be sinners? (Ephesians 2:2-3, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Ephesians 4:17-24).

    #2. Objection: So are you sinless?

    Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

    (a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

    Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

    (b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

    Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also the types of sins like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), and or hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

    (c) Unforgivable sins.

    Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​

    #3. Objection: I don’t see anyone who has stopped sinning or who is living righteously.

    Answer: First, we are called to live by faith and not by sight. For without faith it is impossible to please GOD. Second, if you lived during Noah’s time in a region that was very far away from Noah, you wouldn’t have been able to see anyone living righteously around you. Yet, the Scriptures say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and the whole world was destroyed for their wickedness as an example to all those who would live ungodly thereafter.

    #4. Objection: It’s self righteousness to want to overcome sin.

    Answer: Is it really? Does not God call us to be holy as He? Also, say a person struggles with the sin of drug abuse or sex addiction outside of marriage. Would you say that a person is being self righteous who wants to overcome these sins? Surely not. Overcoming sin is merely a desire to be closer to GOD and in pleasing Him. People who are self righteous like the Pharisees were criticized by Jesus for not keeping God’s Word. They appeared to others as being righteous, but inwardly they were wicked. Jesus did not say to them that they needed to have a mere belief alone on Him. Jesus told them to clean the inside of the cup.

    #5. Objection: It is impossible to stop sinning.

    Answer: This is simply not true. There are many verses that suggest that a believer can stop sinning. Also, when the disciples asked who can be saved when they found out that rich men cannot be saved, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.” Meaning, that GOD can change the heart of a man (if he is willing to come to Him). Meaning, the LORD can help people to overcome their sin. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (not just on the cross, but in your life, too).

    #6. Objection: Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

    Answer: Well, 1 John 1:8 does not say that a believer will always be abiding in some kind of sin. That is not what it is talking about. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law." Breaking a Law is breaking God's Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says if a person breaks God's Commandments (i.e. if they sin) and they say they know Him, they are a liar and the truth is not in Him. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So 1 John 1:8 cannot be saying you will always be breaking God's Commandments or sinning at some point in your life. Then what is 1 John 1:8 saying?

    Well, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus.

    #7. Objection: Does not Paul say he struggled with sin in Romans 7?

    Answer: Well, in the majority of Romans 7, Paul is recounting the experience of the Israelite or Jew's history with the keeping of the Law. Paul is Jewish and he was a Pharisee, so he also included an account of his own personal struggle in trying to keep the Law (while as a Pharisee before he became a Christian).

    (a) Romans 7:5 deals with Paul and other ex-Law keeper’s struggle (who are now Christian) in trying to keep the Law.

    (b) Romans 7:7-13 Paul speaks from the perspective of Israelite history and experience with Old Testament Law. Paul uses the word “I” in reference to the Israelite receiving of the Law of Moses. Note: This is not the first time Paul uses the word “I” in reference to somebody else’s experience (See Galatians 2:18).

    (c) Romans 7:14-24 speaks of Paul and the other ex-Law-keeper’s own personal struggle (who are now Christian) with trying to obey the Law before knowing Jesus Christ.

    (b) In Romans 7:25, Paul then transitions the conversation that with Jesus Christ he can then be delivered from the body of death that controlled him as a part of his old religious life as a Pharisee and a Jew (See Romans 7:24-25).

    5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
    6 But now we are delivered from the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments], that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit [i.e. the Commands by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament], and not in the oldness of the letter [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments].
    (Romans 7:5-6).​

    For Romans 8:2 mentions two laws.

    “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

    There is...

    (a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. A New Covenant Law).
    Which is walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

    (b) The Law of Sin and Death (i.e. An Old Covenant Law).
    This was the Old Testament Law that could condemn you by capital punishment or with physical death. Hence, why it is called the Law of Sin and Death.​

    In Romans 8:4, obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus helps us to fulfill the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law, which is to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

    Side Note:

    Oh, and also Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here.

    #8. Objection: Does not Matthew 6:12 tell us to forgive us our debts which is a part of the Lord’s Prayer?

    Answer: Well, I used to think that the Lord’s prayer was a daily prayer for all believers (to be prayed as an outline) over the course of our whole lives. But after examining the Scriptures, this is simply not so. First, of all, it does not say it is a daily prayer. Second, while this prayer can be prayed in a daily manner, it is a prayer for new believers in the faith. It is a starter prayer that helps a new believer to walk uprightly and give glory to GOD and in seeking His will for their life because the disciples asked how should they pray. Forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive our debtors (i.e. those who sin against us) may not always apply. There may be a day where nobody sins against you. Also, what about verse 13? If we pray not to be led into temptation and ask GOD to deliver us from evil and GOD answers that prayer, are we going to keep praying for GOD to deliver us from evil when He has answered our prayer in being delivered from evil? In other words, it does not make any sense to pray for something that GOD will never give to you in this life.

    #9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

    Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

    For Romans 3:11 says,

    "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
    (Romans 3:11).
    How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

    In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

    #10. Objection: Does not Ecclesiastes 7:20 say there is not a just man upon earth that does good and sins not?

    Answer: Well, here is what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:

    Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT
    "There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."​

    In other words, this is speaking of the fact that a believer may do things that would not be classified as a sin that leads unto death (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). Mistakes would fall under the category of hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. This is not talking about serious sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, hating, stealing, murdering, fornicating, and getting drunk, etc.

    Also, this was during the time of the Old Testament, too (See Hebrews 11:40)

    #11. Objection: Does not Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5 teach against Sinless Perfectionism?

    Answer: Well, when we read these types of verses in Scripture, we have to also read James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 to get a balanced view of Scripture. In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved (Justification) which is by repentance and a belief in Jesus. James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 are talking about your allowance in letting Jesus to do good works thru your life (i.e. Sanctification or holiness). Salvation is a person named Jesus. So if a person abides in Christ, they are saved and good fruit will be the proof in the pudding that Christ truly lives within them or not.

    #12. Objection: Does not confessing our sins to the LORD in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 mean we will never be sinless?

    Answer: Having an advocate that we can confess our sins to does mean we trivialize sin or not treat it as seriously. Confessing sins goes hand in hand with forsaking sin (1 John 1:7).

    Yes, even the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee teaches that GOD’s grace is there for us if we do honestly sin, but the other lesson of the parable (that most people miss) is that the pharisee did not even humble himself to confess his sin in the first place. Nowhere does this parable teach that a person will always sin. It is clear from Jesus’s encounters with the Pharisees that they did not repent to GOD of their sins and they were not living righteously. For Jesus called them hypocrites.

    Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD and to forsake their sin. When the people had turned from their wickedness, then GOD had decided to not bring wrath or Judgment upon them.

    What is the point of confession if a person is going to just sin again?

    Can a husband still cheat on his spouse the rest of his life on occasion to his wife as long as he just says he is sorry? Surely not. It is the same with GOD. For GOD takes certain sins very seriously. If a person minimizes sin by saying to themselves that they are just going to sin at some point in the future because they cannot help it, then they are condoning sin (Which is wrong). In fact, GOD would have to agree with a person's thinking that it is okay for them to sin again in the future with the idea that the LORD is going to save them. But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. While GOD can be merciful and while He can forgive a lot, if a person goes into their walk with GOD thinking they are just bound to sin against Him at some point in the future, then that is exactly what they are going to do. They have already made up their mind to sin (Which is wrong).

    In conclusion, I will leave the reader with the following verse.

    “An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting.” (Proverbs 14:15 ISV).



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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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  2. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Add these verses too:

    John 8:51
    Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."

    John 14:21
    Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
     
  3. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member

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    True, Christian effort to be righteous is required. However, since we all still sin, it is an imputed perfection based on Christ's Ransom Sacrifice and never earned by means of works.

    Romans 3:
    22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I already answered this in my OP (Original Post).

    This is what I said,

    #9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

    Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

    For Romans 3:11 says,

    "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
    (Romans 3:11).

    How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

    In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

    I hope this explanation helps.
    And may God bless you.


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  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Dear Thesunisout:

    Here is my answer I created in my OP for you (which is a reply to your post from the other thread).

    #12. Objection: Does not confessing our sins to the LORD in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 mean we will never be sinless?

    Answer: Having an advocate that we can confess our sins to does mean we trivialize sin or not treat it as seriously. Confessing sins goes hand in hand with forsaking sin (1 John 1:7).

    Yes, even the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee teaches that GOD’s grace is there for us if we do honestly sin, but the other lesson of the parable (that most people miss) is that the pharisee did not even humble himself to confess his sin in the first place. Nowhere does this parable teach that a person will always sin. It is clear from Jesus’s encounters with the Pharisees that they did not repent to GOD of their sins and they were not living righteously. For Jesus called them hypocrites.

    Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD and to forsake their sin. When the people had turned from their wickedness, then GOD had decided to not bring wrath or Judgment upon them.

    What is the point of confession if a person is going to just sin again?

    Can a husband still cheat on his spouse the rest of his life on occasion to his wife as long as he just says he is sorry? Surely not. It is the same with GOD. For GOD takes certain sins very seriously. If a person minimizes sin by saying to themselves that they are just going to sin at some point in the future because they cannot help it, then they are condoning sin (Which is wrong). In fact, GOD would have to agree with a person's thinking that it is okay for them to sin again in the future with the idea that the LORD is going to save them. But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. While GOD can be merciful and while He can forgive a lot, if a person goes into their walk with GOD thinking they are just bound to sin against Him at some point in the future, then that is exactly what they aregoing to do. They have already made up their mind to sin (Which is wrong).


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  6. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be saying that salvation can be earned:


    Or am I misunderstanding you?

    BTW
    I agree with you that the person who purposefully and unrepentantly sins is in danger of losing his salvation.
     
  7. DoubtfulSalvation

    DoubtfulSalvation Active Member

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    If someone could lose it, wouldn't they also have to "earn" it back?
     
  8. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member

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    Well, based on the sincerity of effort put forth he can once again have the benefit of underserved kindness and righteousness imputed based on the Ransom Sacrifice.
     
  9. DoubtfulSalvation

    DoubtfulSalvation Active Member

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    I guess my question is if the effort of the work put forth matter at all, why do we need a ransom sacrifice?
     
  10. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    The doctrine of sinless perfection was (AFAIK) first put forth by John Wesley. And late in his life he was sad to say that he had not achieved it.

    I will agree that the pursuit of said sinless perfection should be the goal of every believer's life. I have known at least 2 people who claimed to have achieved it. But the problem I have with their claim was they narrowed down the definition of "sin." They claimed it was ONLY overt knowing disobedience. That is based on this verse:

    1 John 3:4 (KJV) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    But that is not the ONLY definition of sin.

    In Rom 3.23 we find that sin is missing or falling short of the glory of God. Indeed, that is in keeping with the usage of the words in both the Hebrew and Greek - being archery terms meaning to miss the mark - the bull's eye of the target. It is also a fact that prior to the publication of the KJV in 1611, the english word "sin" was also an archery term meaning the same - missing the target.

    In Rom 14.23 we find that anything NOT DONE IN FAITH is also sinful. So even if it is in absolute obedience to the revealed will of God, and hits the mark of His Glory, but is done with doubt, it is still sinful.

    Most anyone who touts sinless perfectionism fails to take these factors into account.
     
  11. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    The answer to that can be found all thru the OT prophetic books.

    There is a process for restoring someone (or a whole nation) to the covenant. It could not accurately be described as "earning it back."

    However, it was not my understanding that the thread was about losing or regaining salvation. I thought it was narrowly about the Wesleyan doctrine of sinless perfection.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Salvation is Abiding in Jesus Christ.
    He that has the Son has life and he that does not have have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12).
    The good works a believer does is not their own but it is Christ working in them. So any claims that you are doing your own work by your own power alone to save yourself is just false. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). When believers receive their crowns, they thrown them down before Jesus. So Jesus saves 100% when we allow Him to move thru us.

    In Ephesians 2 and Romans 4: Paul is saying we are not working so as to be saved one day. So there is no earning going on here (Hoping to get a paycheck of salvation) (Romans 4:4). We can have an assurance of the free gift of salvation right now thru repenting of our sins to Jesus Christ and by believing that He died and was risen from the grave three days later on our behalf.

    However, you are taking Justification too far and ignoring Sanctification.
    Justification and Sanctification are two different aspects of salvation.
    Does not Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling in Philippians 2:12?
    Does not trembling imply fear?
    Did not Jesus say "Keep the Commandments" in reply to the rich-man's question in what must he do to have eternal life? (Matthew 19:16-17).
    Does not Paul say, "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." in Romans 4:21?
    Does not James say that faith without works is dead?
    Does not Paul say that you can deny Him (Christ) in works in Titus 1:16?
    Does not the author of Hebrews say, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." in Hebrews 5:9?

    The best way to word Sanctification without you thinking the wrong thing is to say that it is simply your cooperation in allowing Jesus to do the good work thru you (Which would be obedience to His Commands and the Commands of His followers within the New Testament). For Jesus says, why do you call me LORD, LORD, if you do not do what I say? A faith without any kind of show for it is just an empty faith. If a person has Jesus living inside them (who is the source of their salvation), then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life. Jesus telling us to be perfect is the ultimate goal within the Sanctification process that the LORD puts us thru (when we walk with Him). You may not like the idea of putting away all sin out of your life, but the Bible does teach it.


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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The same way you get it back is the same you get it in the first place. Belief and repentance of your sin towards Jesus is Initial Salvation and how we get it back if we were to err from the truth by falling into a life of sin again.

    19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
    (James 5:19-20).

    "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1).

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).​

    Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. Jesus says the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3 and read verses 6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD (confession or admitance of their sin) and to turn from their evil ways (i.e. to forsake their sins). When GOD had seen that they had turned from their wickedness, he then decided to not bring wrath or judgment upon them.

    Forsaking sin is at the heart of Sinless Perfectionism (Which is also a part of how Jesus defines repentance for us). For if you believe you will sin again at some point in the future because you cannot help but to sin, then you are not truly having an attitude of forsaking your evil ways.

    "He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whosoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).

    Also see 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 2:3-6 on forsaking sin, too.

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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not true. I shown forth 50 points within Scripture that makes it obvious that Sinless Perfectionism is in fact a Biblical teaching found within Scripture. Besides, can you make a real world example out of denying Sinless Perfectionism? Can a man who cheats on his wife just say he is sorry and yet cheat on her wife just on occasion the rest of his life and still be in a right relationship with her? Surely not. In other words, there has to be a level of faithfulness when it comes to basic morality with both humans and GOD. Yes, GOD can forgive us a lot, but GOD's grace is not a license to cover any amount of willful sin. Saying we will sin at some point in the future is a declaration of willful sin (Which is wrong). Sinless Perfection as the goal for our lives is the only good and right attitude to have towards sin. Otherwise, one is agreeing with evil.

    Not true. The Bible also says whatseover is not of faith is sin of which you also mention below with Romans 14:23.

    This verse is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

    I said,

    #9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

    Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

    For Romans 3:11 says,

    "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

    How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

    In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

    The point of not having absolute obedience in all aspects of our walk with GOD is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

    I said,

    #2. Objection: So are you sinless?

    Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

    (a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

    Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

    (b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

    Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also certain types of sins that do not need repentance: Like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

    (c) Unforgivable sins.

    Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​


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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  15. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Jason - you are just repeating your own statements and not really addressing my points. Your first "Not true" was supposedly about John Wesley. I am not sure if you are claiming that John Wesley was the first to espouse this doctrine, (I certainly am not familiar with anyone prior to him) or that Wesley did not complain near the end of his life for not having attained it.

    In your second objection, you claim that is speaking only of initial salvation. I do not agree.

    Your third objection was most telling. It tells me that you do not understand how faith and sin interact or maybe even what faith is and how one gets it. So let us start with that point.

    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the [rhema = spoken] word of God.

    So if you are not actually HEARING God's voice, (not just reading it from a page) you do not have true biblical faith. If you do not have true biblical faith, you are sinning in everything you do. You did not address this issue at all.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't have a basement.
    I also do talk to a lot of people both online and in person.
    So I do know when somebody is insulting me.
    Please stick to the topic of the thread by using Scripture instead of being disruptive.

    Thank you.
    And may God's love shine upon you today.


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  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am repeating my statements in my OP because they address the points you made.

    Not true. I believe you are just not accepting my answers to the points you made or you are simply unable to see it.

    Well, from my perspective, it appears you put too much stock in historical man made documents. My beliefs are not based upon what man says or does not say in history. Terms can go by different names thru out time and or they might not have been clearly defined by others yet. The documents in history could have also been lost. Also, what men believe thru out history does not mean they are right in their beliefs, either. People can even be close to the truth and still miss it. So my final and ultimate authority is the Bible and not what man says in history. If history appears to back up the Scriptures, then that is fine. But to formulate a belief based on history always being in perfect line with the Bible is a huge error. Do we have proof the Garden of Eden existed? No. But we believe it because the Word of God says it. We look to God's Word first regardless if there is evidence in history for it's teaching or not.

    *Cough* Please provide Bible verses that try to undo the verses that I had brought forth to prove your point.

    First, nowhere does God's Word say that faith and sin interact with each other. Sin is put behind the believer when they come to the LORD. Faith and sin do not collide together and join as one. We repent of our sins to Jesus by admitting we are sinner and come to have faith in Jesus that He can save us from our sin and punishment with His death, and resurrection. This is repentance is with the intent on forsaking your sin. For if one is truly sorry over their sin, then they will turn from their wicked ways. It's only natural.

    Second, nowhere did I deny that the Spirit is not involved when a believer is first convicted of their sins when we read or hear God's Word.

    Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of GOD.
    This would not be only in accepting the words of Jesus by repenting of one's sins, but this would also include continuing to hear the words of Jesus so as to walk with Him.

    "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).


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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The ransom sacrifice was to reconcile you back to GOD thru repentance of your sins to Jesus (along with having a belief that Christ's death and resurrection saves you). But to go back to sin on any level would mean there would be no more sacrifice for sins, though.

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
    (Hebrews 10:26-29).


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  20. thesunisout

    thesunisout growing in grace Supporter

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    Jason, I specifically told you I didn't want to get into a debate with you over sinless perfectionism. You did not respect my wishes and created this post to bring me over here. These are the marks of every practitioner of sinless perfectionism that I have met on this forum: pushy and argumentative. It doesn't lend a lot of credence to your position..
     
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