A “Law” question and Romans 2:14-15

[Mynameisjeff]

Hello all,

This is my 1st forum post and I’m kind of excited.

I would like to share some thoughts and experiences about the Law of God. I would like some feedback, I don’t know if I’m off on this or not and maybe get it cleared up.

Here it goes. When I was a child of 3 or 4 years old I was out playing in the garden. I found a toad and I caught it. Being the adventurous and playful boy I was I was very excited about catching my 1st toad. After a few minutes I noticed that the toad stopped moving. So I laid it down in the landscaping rocks under the deck. The toad didn’t move, and a couple days went by and I realized it was dead. For the 1st time in my life I realized I had done something that had ended the life of a living creature and there was nothing that my parents could do to make it better. I felt guilt, shame and sorrow. As the toad rotted away and all that was left were the bones, every time I would walk by them I would feel that extreme guilt.

Now as a adult I know what I did was not that big of a deal but I can still recall how powerful my emotions were and I’m trying to figure out why I felt the way I did. Nobody taught me to react that way it just happened.

Going through scripture I found Paul addressing the Christians in Rome.

“14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)” -Romans 2:14-15

Is what I experienced as a child the “Law” that is written on are hearts’ discribes by Paul?

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, God can have people understanding right from wrong, even if they do not know His Law.

In the case of the toad . . . you did not deliberately kill the toad. So, the Law might exonerate you.

What could have happened is you were too controlling, holding it too tightly so it suffocated. And our New Testament says,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

What happened to the toad could be a lesson about love . . . how we can suffocate people by trying to possess and protect and control and own them and use them for what we want. Being possessive and dominating can kill a relationship. So, we need to be gentle and humble and quiet and submissive to God for His direction, in sharing with people

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

Of course, I understand that the toad was not capable of a mutual and sensitive love relationship. And if we stray to trying to capture and use people, we can destroy things in the process. Because it is not with God.

And possibly you felt guilt and shame, but without getting a love lesson about not controlling and suffocating people, and not trying to only use people. So, I would not trust that shame and guilt, if it has not helped to bring you to trust our Heavenly Father and Jesus to make you able to relate in love with people. There are things and people which can make us feel bad, but they do nothing at all to help us to find out how to love. So . . . trust Jesus

 

[Mynameisjeff]

Yes, God can have people understanding right from wrong, even if they do not know His Law.

In the case of the toad . . . you did not deliberately kill the toad. So, the Law might exonerate you.

What could have happened is you were too controlling, holding it too tightly so it suffocated. And our New Testament says,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

What happened to the toad could be a lesson about love . . . how we can suffocate people by trying to possess and protect and control and own them and use them for what we want. Being possessive and dominating can kill a relationship. So, we need to be gentle and humble and quiet and submissive to God for His direction, in sharing with people

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

Of course, I understand that the toad was not capable of a mutual and sensitive love relationship. And if we stray to trying to capture and use people, we can destroy things in the process. Because it is not with God.

And possibly you felt guilt and shame, but without getting a love lesson about not controlling and suffocating people, and not trying to only use people. So, I would not trust that shame and guilt, if it has not helped to bring you to trust our Heavenly Father and Jesus to make you able to relate in love with people. There are things and people which can make us feel bad, but they do nothing at all to help us to find out how to love. So . . . trust Jesus

Thank you for your words. Be blessed.

 

[paul1149]

Nobody taught me to react that way it just happened.

I suspect you had a gentle childhood, and your sense of attachment to your environment was still strong at that point. You were naive to the physical needs of the toad, and whatever happened, caused it to "croak" for its last time. You understood enough about death to know it was the end of the line for the toad, and the sense of oneness you had with the world was violated. This would break, in a child's mind, the royal law of love - do unto others - and thus bring condemnation. So yes, I see it as an example of the scripture you quote about natural law.

The conscience is tightly bound to the Golden Rule. This sounds like a formative experience of a sensitive child. As we get older, we learn that life is nuanced, and that, being imperfect, we also commit errors. We need to learn the ethical ropes, and we need to admit when we blow it and get forgiveness from the One who has the authority to forgive. This is what maturing entails. Thank God for mercy and new beginnings!

Children with rough upbringings, I suspect they grow up with hardened consciences. Their sense of oneness is trashed in the crib, so to speak, and they learn to do what they need to to survive. But until they mature they might carry that out without nuance as well.

 

[Winken]

A friend and I were walking on a city street when he announced that he was "going into the pigeon business." We were each 11 years old. I headed right out to capture a pigeon and put it in a cage. It sat on a perch. I provided food and water. Each time I approached the pigeon reacted in fear, attempting to escape the cage. I went out to feed and water it one day ---- it went beserk, fell over. and died. I was stunned. I was dismayed. What had I done? Why did the pigeon fear me? Then came guilt. I'm a Christian.....what have I done? I think Mom opened the cage and buried it; I don't remember. That guilt whirled around in my head for years. This is just one example from my life. I'm 82 years old now, and won't forget the animals and birds that have graced my life.....along with those I didn't pay enough attention to. It still hurts.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Hello all,

This is my 1st forum post and I’m kind of excited.

I would like to share some thoughts and experiences about the Law of God. I would like some feedback, I don’t know if I’m off on this or not and maybe get it cleared up.

Here it goes. When I was a child of 3 or 4 years old I was out playing in the garden. I found a toad and I caught it. Being the adventurous and playful boy I was I was very excited about catching my 1st toad. After a few minutes I noticed that the toad stopped moving. So I laid it down in the landscaping rocks under the deck. The toad didn’t move, and a couple days went by and I realized it was dead. For the 1st time in my life I realized I had done something that had ended the life of a living creature and there was nothing that my parents could do to make it better. I felt guilt, shame and sorrow. As the toad rotted away and all that was left were the bones, every time I would walk by them I would feel that extreme guilt.

Now as a adult I know what I did was not that big of a deal but I can still recall how powerful my emotions were and I’m trying to figure out why I felt the way I did. Nobody taught me to react that way it just happened.

Going through scripture I found Paul addressing the Christians in Rome.

“14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)” -Romans 2:14-15

Is what I experienced as a child the “Law” that is written on are hearts’ discribes by Paul?

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

No.

There is no Law of Yahweh stating you can't kill a toad.

But I had a similar experience with my first pet, though it died through sickness.

Perhaps the guilt we felt stems from the existence of death itself. A guilt all descendants of Adam share:

1 Corinthians 15:
21 For since by Adam came death, by Adam came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ [the Son of Adam] shall all be made alive.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

Praise יהוה!

 

[Soyeong]

Hello all,

This is my 1st forum post and I’m kind of excited.

I would like to share some thoughts and experiences about the Law of God. I would like some feedback, I don’t know if I’m off on this or not and maybe get it cleared up.

Here it goes. When I was a child of 3 or 4 years old I was out playing in the garden. I found a toad and I caught it. Being the adventurous and playful boy I was I was very excited about catching my 1st toad. After a few minutes I noticed that the toad stopped moving. So I laid it down in the landscaping rocks under the deck. The toad didn’t move, and a couple days went by and I realized it was dead. For the 1st time in my life I realized I had done something that had ended the life of a living creature and there was nothing that my parents could do to make it better. I felt guilt, shame and sorrow. As the toad rotted away and all that was left were the bones, every time I would walk by them I would feel that extreme guilt.

Now as a adult I know what I did was not that big of a deal but I can still recall how powerful my emotions were and I’m trying to figure out why I felt the way I did. Nobody taught me to react that way it just happened.

Going through scripture I found Paul addressing the Christians in Rome.

“14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)” -Romans 2:14-15

Is what I experienced as a child the “Law” that is written on are hearts’ discribes by Paul?

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

Hello and welcome.

Conviction is the tool of God, while guilt is the tool of Satan. In other words, when it happened, you realized you made a mistake, and you repented of that, and for God that is the end of the story, but Satan will continue to make us feel guilty about things that God has already forgiven.

 

[Shempster]

Going through scripture I found Paul addressing the Christians in Rome.

“14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)” -Romans 2:14-15

Is what I experienced as a child the “Law” that is written on are hearts’ discribes by Paul?

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

My thoughts on this are different than most, so its ok if you disagree.
The way I see the "law" is that it is the spirit behind the letter....not the actual letter. The "law" seems to be the way God would do things which is in LOVE. Jesus gave us a new law of love which fulfilled the meaning of the letter of the law.
There are some people, even non-religious folks who love others over themselves. I know many of them.
By contrast, there are very religious folks who are stingy, greedy, selfish folks who love those who love them but the buck stops there. They mock anyone who has an opposing view. They think of poor people as lazy and deserving of poverty. They would have no problem shooting someone who wants to take their stuff, but they believe they are righteous simply because they believe the right things.

This can be very confusing. Most churches I know of would say that love doesn't matter, only a persons belief system. So the non-believer who loves people will be tortured forever and the stingy religious person gets to float on clouds and watch the non-believer writhe in agony forever.
That notion never made sense to me.

 

[Soyeong]

My thoughts on this are different than most, so its ok if you disagree.
The way I see the "law" is that it is the spirit behind the letter....not the actual letter. The "law" seems to be the way God would do things which is in LOVE. Jesus gave us a new law of love which fulfilled the meaning of the letter of the law.
There are some people, even non-religious folks who love others over themselves. I know many of them.
By contrast, there are very religious folks who are stingy, greedy, selfish folks who love those who love them but the buck stops there. They mock anyone who has an opposing view. They think of poor people as lazy and deserving of poverty. They would have no problem shooting someone who wants to take their stuff, but they believe they are righteous simply because they believe the right things.

This can be very confusing. Most churches I know of would say that love doesn't matter, only a persons belief system. So the non-believer who loves people will be tortured forever and the stingy religious person gets to float on clouds and watch the non-believer writhe in agony forever.
That notion never made sense to me.

The distinction between the letter and the spirit of the law is reflected in modern discussions of law enforcement and is not in regard to whether we obey it, but in regard to the manner in which it obeyed with respect to the intend behind the law. For example:

Leviticus 19:12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Someone who is focused on keeping the spirit or intent understands that we are not to swear falsely, but someone is focused on keeping the letter of the law exactly how it is written will understand that we are free to swear falsely just so long as we don't do so in God's name. However, someone can still outwardly obey the law in accordance with how it is intended to be obeyed, but still miss the deeper intent in that the Law is intended to teach us spiritual principles of how to walk in God's ways in accordance attributes, so obedience to that law is about reflecting God's righteousness, expressing our love for God, and expressing our faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Someone who obeys the Law without focusing on growing in a relationship with Christ based on faith and love is completely missing the whole point of keeping the Law, which is why Paul referred to that as rubbish (Philippians 3:8). As such, the Law was never intended to be outwardly obeyed according to the letter because God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed Him while their hearts were far from Him. In Matthew 7:21-23, people were outwardly doing things in accordance with the Law, yet Jesus counted them as being Lawless because he never knew them, so at the end of the day it's about whether we have a relationship with Christ, and if we do, then we will seek to reflect his love.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hello all,

This is my 1st forum post and I’m kind of excited.

I would like to share some thoughts and experiences about the Law of God. I would like some feedback, I don’t know if I’m off on this or not and maybe get it cleared up.

Here it goes. When I was a child of 3 or 4 years old I was out playing in the garden. I found a toad and I caught it. Being the adventurous and playful boy I was I was very excited about catching my 1st toad. After a few minutes I noticed that the toad stopped moving. So I laid it down in the landscaping rocks under the deck. The toad didn’t move, and a couple days went by and I realized it was dead. For the 1st time in my life I realized I had done something that had ended the life of a living creature and there was nothing that my parents could do to make it better. I felt guilt, shame and sorrow. As the toad rotted away and all that was left were the bones, every time I would walk by them I would feel that extreme guilt.

Now as a adult I know what I did was not that big of a deal but I can still recall how powerful my emotions were and I’m trying to figure out why I felt the way I did. Nobody taught me to react that way it just happened.

Going through scripture I found Paul addressing the Christians in Rome.

“14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)” -Romans 2:14-15

Is what I experienced as a child the “Law” that is written on are hearts’ discribes by Paul?

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

That's a pretty amazing and touching testimony. Yes, I believe that what you felt once you realized that you had killed the toad accidentally was essentially God's Law kicking in within your heart. Feeling guilt stinks, but the sinking, nauseated feeling we get when it hits us that we've done wrong is arguably a massive blessing. It can help us avoid sin, value life, respect other's feelings better, avoid careless behavior, or learn how not to be in the future.

God bless you, and it's good to meet you here, Jeff.

 

[Buzz_B]

Romans 2:14-15 “(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing [them])”

What I see standing out in the above passage is "their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing [them]"

paul1149 wound up his post number 4 by saying, "Children with rough upbringings, I suspect they grow up with hardened consciences. Their sense of oneness is trashed in the crib, so to speak, and they learn to do what they need to to survive. But until they mature they might carry that out without nuance as well. "

I was a child with a rough upbringing, yet, I can look back and see that I had a powerful consciousness of right and wrong which I attribute to my mother's teaching me from the scriptures despite the brawling of a drunken father who kept our home in a constant state of distress. Psychologically it affected me so that my earliest memories were of crawling into small places to hide from the fighting, like behind the couch or at times running down into our cellar to crawl up inside pockets of a load of old lumber which remained there from the days my father had built our home. Yet I was able to know the difference between what is right and wrong also because what my father so often did felt so wrong.

Despite the knowledge of it being wrong, I went through a period when I got older where I found myself given to do the very things I knew were wrong and had hated in connection with my father. I have been divorced for more than twenty years now and I am glad of it, for being by myself gave me much needed time to work on myself apart from hurting those I love. Because of my upbringing it was necessary that it be that way. Because I was addicted to the idea that I needed a significant other in my life I jumped right back into marriage a second time only to repeat the same mistakes. All that did for me was to keep another present around me whom I could blame for being the cause of my faults. It was an earnestly mistaken mindset of using her faults to excuse my faults, "But you should have known not to do what you did; I would never do that to you!" That mindset was modeled to me continuously throughout my childhood years and the distortion that it caused to my thinking I could not easily recognize by myself.

It was not that I did not know what I did was wrong but that I had developed no better coping skills to prevent myself from acting out in improper ways. I did not have a good example of those coping skills in either of my parents and so I had no way to learn them but through making my own mistakes. Clearly the law had made its way into my consciousness for I always felt terrible about what I did after the fact. But law was not by itself enough. And I now know that even coping skills when they are finally understood amidst the fire are a strain to apply. There are learned ways of seeing things which must be unlearned before those coping skills can become natural to us who have it to deal with this demon within. For example, that "But you should have known not to do what you did; I would never do that to you!" mindset must become, "I believe you, like myself, make mistakes; and those mistakes will happen to test our love for one another." Add to that a little faith in the desire of others to do what is right (especially those we love) and we can stop being so taken by surprise that we become shocked when mistakes occur. That thus allows us to continue thankful for the treasure we have in relationships with others so as not to end up reacting to those mistakes rashly.. We must remain calm so that the peace of God can guard our hearts and our thinking. The shock of surprise at others' failures tends to draw emotional reactions out of us in place of that peace of God controlling in us.

That was a very helpless feeling back then, but as Paul said, O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 24-25

Now, I hear many say that Paul's words, "but with the flesh the law of sin", proves that we are incapable of defeating the sin in us so long as we live yet as flesh. I suggest that such ones learn more about what Paul had said before that, "For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death." Romans 7:5

Now compare that with, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Romans 8:9

If we are yet being controlled by the emotions of our flesh is that not proof we are yet in the flesh? "... those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:8

Compare:
James 1:19-20 "So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God."

1 Corinthians 3:3 "for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?"

Clearly we must remove the mysticism from off of Paul's words and realize that when he tells us not to live in the flesh he is literally telling us to deaden the emotions of our flesh which would otherwise override our ability to think in a godly peaceful manner whereby we won't be prone to reacting in shameful ways. And we will not deaden those negative emotions so long as we feel justified in having them.

How do we find justification for those negative emotions? By blaming them on the faults of others.

Do we not all have faults? Why should we expect others won't have faults? On what legitimate basis are we shocked at others for having faults? We are not yet qualified to judge others until we have ourselves have identified and defeated our twisted understandings of things along with defeating our own unreasonable expectations of others. We can get much good use of the Scriptures in helping us to do that, but only if we work hard to rid ourselves of our superimposed unreasonable views of what the Scriptures are actually speaking to us. If we do that our doctrinal ideas will also begin to change more in line with God’s spirit which calms our inner man and produces a peace within us that is both rugged and real. Then we can know what good relationships are and not be continuing to tear down our own house which we so dearly desired to build. Domestic violence will be a thing of our past; dead along with our old man.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Yes. In Context of Romans 2:14-15, there is the "law" of "conscience"...God consciousness...the A&E inherited "knowledge of right and wrong" in the "heart".

Back up 1 chapter on Paul's Romans Road...

Romans 1...Unbelief and Its Consequences
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness
of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made (NATURE!), so that they are without excuse.

The universe of and around Man proves the existence of its Creator.

 

[Matthew13:9]

Hello all,

This is my 1st forum post and I’m kind of excited.

I would like to share some thoughts and experiences about the Law of God. I would like some feedback, I don’t know if I’m off on this or not and maybe get it cleared up.

Here it goes. When I was a child of 3 or 4 years old I was out playing in the garden. I found a toad and I caught it. Being the adventurous and playful boy I was I was very excited about catching my 1st toad. After a few minutes I noticed that the toad stopped moving. So I laid it down in the landscaping rocks under the deck. The toad didn’t move, and a couple days went by and I realized it was dead. For the 1st time in my life I realized I had done something that had ended the life of a living creature and there was nothing that my parents could do to make it better. I felt guilt, shame and sorrow. As the toad rotted away and all that was left were the bones, every time I would walk by them I would feel that extreme guilt.

Now as a adult I know what I did was not that big of a deal but I can still recall how powerful my emotions were and I’m trying to figure out why I felt the way I did. Nobody taught me to react that way it just happened.

Going through scripture I found Paul addressing the Christians in Rome.

“14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)” -Romans 2:14-15

Is what I experienced as a child the “Law” that is written on are hearts’ discribes by Paul?

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

Romans 2:14-15King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


The gentiles you read above is referring to believing gentiles according to the flesh: which have not the law of Moses but shew the work of the law written in their heart:

Galatians 5:14King James Version (KJV)

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Romans 13:10King James Version (KJV)

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.





Matthew 5:17King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.



John 15:13King James Version (KJV)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.



Galatians 5:14King James Version (KJV)

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.