[911 edit] Married men and sex (2)

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mkgal1

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So just because one person's situation(or even a few people's situations) turned out badly, the beliefs are blamed instead of the people? That makes no sense to me. Yeah, there are cases when the beliefs themselves are dangerous, but this one isn't one of those. As chaz said earlier, a gun doesn't commit murder, the person holding the gun commits murder.
The way you are using that analogy.....I would see the person = the gun; the beliefs are what drive how the gun is handled--the way in which it's used. People don't ruin relationships....their beliefs/attitudes do.

Things don't always turn out badly because of our beliefs. They may never be tried, because of whom we are married to.
 
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His Wife

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The way you are using that analogy.....I would see the person = the gun; the beliefs are what drive how the gun is handled--the way in which it's used. People don't ruin relationships....their beliefs/attitudes do.

You don't think the heart of the person has anything to do with how those beliefs are acted out?

You didn't understand the gun analogy so I'll go back to the Christian one. During the Crusades Christians murdered mass amounts of people in the name of Jesus. Does that make our belief dangerous? Does that make our belief unhealthy?

Contrary, Billy Graham has done many great things in this world in the name of Jesus. He's helped thousands of people.

Both believed in Jesus, both acted in His Name, yet the outcomes were vastly different. Don't you think the individual plays a much greater role in how beliefs are acted on?

The beliefs I hold are not dangerous because my husband and I have hearts that are in accord with one another. There is no inevitable doom awaiting us at the end of the road our beliefs lead us on. We believe that our convictions are founded on the word of God and, thus far, has given us a fabulous marriage. Others here seem to share the same testimony.

If my husband were to take these beliefs and use them to try and manipulate me, this would not be because the beliefs are dangerous, but because his heart would not be in alignment with God's Word. It's very dangerous to place blame on beliefs, because it removes responsibility from us as individuals.
 
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His Wife

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mkgal1 said:

Things don't always turn out badly because of our beliefs. They may never be tried, because of whom we are married to.


Exactly. The individuals who hold the beliefs have the power to use them for good or evil. If the belief is evil or dangerous(like the belief that black people are inferior to white people), then obviously nothing good can come from that belief. But if a belief is, at it's root, good or neutral(like that sacrificing for our spouse can be a good thing and bless the marriage), then it's dependent on the individuals who hold that belief to act in a upright way.
 
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mkgal1

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I was trying to come up with a better explanation....a reason WHY you may not ever have your beliefs tried. The only thing I can come up with right now is something that came up in my husband's church. The women's purses were being stolen during fellowship time. The pastor made an announcement that just because they were in a church building didn't mean everyone inside was obeying God. In any other church...with any other group of people, it may not ever be a problem to leave your purse as you went across the room to speak with a friend, but it isn't even worth it to leave purses unattended.
 
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His Wife

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I was trying to come up with a better explanation....a reason WHY you may not ever have your beliefs tried. The only thing I can come up with right now is something that came up in my husband's church. The women's purses were being stolen during fellowship time. The pastor made an announcement that just because they were in a church building didn't mean everyone inside was obeying God. In any other church...with any other group of people, it may not ever be a problem to leave your purse as you went across the room to speak with a friend, but it isn't even worth it to leave purses unattended.

I don't understand your point at all, can you make it as direct as possible please?
 
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mkgal1

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You don't think the heart of the person has anything to do with how those beliefs are acted out?

You didn't understand the gun analogy so I'll go back to the Christian one. During the Crusades Christians murdered mass amounts of people in the name of Jesus. Does that make our belief dangerous? Does that make our belief unhealthy?

Contrary, Billy Graham has done many great things in this world in the name of Jesus. He's helped thousands of people.

Both believed in Jesus, both acted in His Name, yet the outcomes were vastly different. Don't you think the individual plays a much greater role in how beliefs are acted on?

The beliefs I hold are not dangerous because my husband and I have hearts that are in accord with one another. There is no inevitable doom awaiting us at the end of the road our beliefs lead us on. We believe that our convictions are founded on the word of God and, thus far, has given us a fabulous marriage. Others here seem to share the same testimony.

If my husband were to take these beliefs and use them to try and manipulate me, this would not be because the beliefs are dangerous, but because his heart would not be in alignment with God's Word. It's very dangerous to place blame on beliefs, because it removes responsibility from us as individuals.
I don't separate my beliefs from my heart.....I believe that my will and my beliefs are all a part of my heart.

Many people are going to name Christ in what they do.....that's a big reason why we need to learn to discern the spirits, so we won't be deceived. Our enemy is called the great imposter...great conterfeiter for a reason.

Anyway.....this is veering OT and it's late. I may edit this tomorrow when my mind is more alert.
 
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mkgal1

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I don't understand your point at all, can you make it as direct as possible please?
That's as direct as it's going to get right now. Sometimes our beliefs aren't actually tried at all. That's all I am trying to express. I may believe that (for instance...in my example) my purse is safe, and that no one would steal in a church. If no one is interested in stealing while I have my purse unattended, I would never know whether or not that's a valid belief to have.
 
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Conservativation

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Yes it is. And it is incredibly serious and unfortunate.

But that doesn't mean those of us in healthy marriages need to be bombarded with statistics about it. It doesn't mean we are in any danger. It's almost like all this is meant to be a warning, like with the post about the wife who was found dead later. It's like, "Hey! This marriage seemed pretty good too. Next thing you know, your husband is gonna come out of the closet and beat you to death. Better watch out and not let him get too close, and you really shouldn't have sex unless you absolutely 100% are in the mood for it. His pursuing you could totally turn into marital rape, and then that could lead to him killing you."

That is exactly what all of this sounds like. No biblical support, just fear tactics.

I am really sorry for those who have been in/are currently in unhealthy marriages. I really am. I'll be praying for you and your spouses. Being in a healthy marriage that hasn't suffered from some traumatic turmoil is not a crime, it's a gift. I'm sorry that all of this seems so negative to some of you(to some it sounds like you don't even believe in marriage at all), but we really don't need warnings tossed around.


You have observed this correctly. Ive tried to figure out, over 3 years of reading these kinds of things, what is the motive. Ive come to the conclusion it isn't fear, that they are not literally trying to spread fear. However the fear narrative fits the churches current teaching nicely, that men walk the razors edge of sexual sin and stumble into it often but for a woman keeping them in check....so its not hard to find reinforcement for this in Christian communities.

Ive concluded that people, maybe most people want to feel a certain feelings when they talk about certain subjects, and that folks who've had a rough go of something, when that comes up, want to feel their anger or whatever the feeling is reflected back by other posters, and anything short of that isn't received well. I get that way on the subject of divorce, I want people to get as worked up as me, so Im guilty of it too (though not so much lately as Ive mellowed on the topic, this is beside the point)

Those who are seeming to spread fear are just looking for empathy, like-feelings reflected back, and also maybe a tiny bit a vicarious anger they get to experience at their spouse, still, through the words of others.

Short of that, I cant figure the whole warning you may be married to a monster tone at all. I mean life will go on, years will pass, and these words will have been stated, and marriages will or wont go sour, but this here will have nothing to do with it and truth be known most of us dont walk through our days repeating these beliefs and acting them out, we never even think about this stuff, we just live in the equilibrium we have established, and only here when tasked with answering these questions do we even attempt to share our views. That means Im not really needed to warn others that this MIGHT happen, and I need not justify anything to anyone.

In other topics we talk about mutual grace and giving (which means sometimes taking no for an answer, lovingly, and sometimes her willing to change her mind...thats MUTUAL grace and giving) and its a virtue, this topic, not so much. The anger empathy desire overshadows how utterly reasonable this is, and they would rather dwell in the darkest possibilities. It will not change, and thats ok, I highly doubt they are angrily handling their own lives this way, they have an equilibrium like most people and it works. But that begs the question then, why so exercised on this topic, and I think i answered that above IMO.
 
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hijklmnop

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Ive concluded that people, maybe most people want to feel a certain feelings when they talk about certain subjects, and that folks who've had a rough go of something, when that comes up, want to feel their anger or whatever the feeling is reflected back by other posters, and anything short of that isn't received well. I get that way on the subject of divorce, I want people to get as worked up as me, so Im guilty of it too (though not so much lately as Ive mellowed on the topic, this is beside the point)

Those who are seeming to spread fear are just looking for empathy, like-feelings reflected back, and also maybe a tiny bit a vicarious anger they get to experience at their spouse, still, through the words of others.
Um, no. I've stated why I express certain beliefs on this forum but I guess you don't believe me. Kinda annoying but whatever! Oh, wait...it's because I'm a woman and sometimes I don't know why I do things...good thing I have a man to explain my motives to others!!! LOL
 
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hijklmnop

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That's as direct as it's going to get right now. Sometimes our beliefs aren't actually tried at all. That's all I am trying to express. I may believe that (for instance...in my example) my purse is safe, and that no one would steal in a church. If no one is interested in stealing while I have my purse unattended, I would never know whether or not that's a valid belief to have.

TOTALLY!!!! Just because one person's beliefs may go untested and therefore seem completely fine doesn't mean that for another person those same beliefs won't be proven flawed. Therefore, no need for one to get offended by another sharing how and why they found those beliefs to be flawed.
 
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chaz345

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On the whole convincing or peursuading a reluctant spouse to have sex point, I suspect there would be little to no objection if the term seduce had been used from the beginning. And that, not badgering or pressuring is really what was meant in the first place.
 
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FaithPrevails

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This conversation isn't even intelligible any longer. Such grand assumptions and conclusions are being made that are incredibly unjustifiable.

Anyway, JRSut, I agree with you completely, and with pobody and chaz, etc. And I conclude my participation in this thread with this:

If something has worked for you in your marriage and both your spouse and you are better for it, then I have no right to nitpick about the particulars I may or may not agree with. Have the common courtesy to apply the same to others. Just because you disagree with their beliefs doesn't mean they're wrong or dangerous, and please understand how offensive it is to be told that something you believe, others associate it with marital rape, prostitution, or any number of the ridiculous things mentioned in this thread. How would you feel if someone compared your beliefs to those things, especially when you, yourself, are disgusted by those things?

The bolded - that's what Christian tolerance looks like, IMO. That's the accepting even if we don't understand/agree thing that was discussed earlier.
 
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chaz345

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TOTALLY!!!! Just because one person's beliefs may go untested and therefore seem completely fine doesn't mean that for another person those same beliefs won't be proven flawed. Therefore, no need for one to get offended by another sharing how and why they found those beliefs to be flawed.
If the opinion were properly qualified with "in my opinion" or "in my experience" I agree. If on the other hand the other's belief/opinion is characterized as inherently dangerous in and of itself, it's a whole different thing.
 
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Conservativation

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Um, no. I've stated why I express certain beliefs on this forum but I guess you don't believe me. Kinda annoying but whatever! Oh, wait...it's because I'm a woman and sometimes I don't know why I do things...good thing I have a man to explain my motives to others!!! LOL


Complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what I suggested was happening, but I'm not going to bother about it
 
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