.

[Elana0123]

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[Albion]

I have always thought about an Earth without all the barriers that religion has created, it would have been much more peaceful and simple.

You understand, I am going to presume, that such WAS the way God created the Earth and its inhabitants.

 

[John Bowen]

There is many names for water in the world dosn't matter what people call it .When you are thirsty and drink a cold cup you experience that it is good. In America they say don't through the baby out with the bath water. Don't let man made religions turn you off to God. The Christ means Logos the universal mind that all life is one. Tune in to that Jesus "teachings " can help you with that.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

My prayer for you is for the Holy Spirit to fill you and that you develop a strong personal relationship with Lord Jesus Christ. Walk with Him. Talk with Him. He promise that He would never leave you nor forsake you.

 

[salt-n-light]

I've recently joined this forum for the main purpose of pouring all my thoughts that i have been caging for quite a while, since i feel that is that's the way things are, and that's how people are brought up since they were little kids, but that's for me is extremely torturing.

Let me explain myself a bit more, instead of this "too vague" introduction.

I'm an Egyptian christian female that's born in an orthodox christian family that's used to going to church for the the holy Eucharist every Friday (Instead of Sundays as our weekend is Friday and Saturday unlike European countries).
But from many years, that's not how things are working out for me. I have completely stopped attending church and going to Sunday school, i only go to church on ceremonies just to please my family, and to make them happy.
And that's not because i'm a wild teenager that's bored from church, it's way more personal than that.
Well, my childhood memories in church wasn't the best, i was a shy child that was just staying in the corner, i have always been the good and the perfect child that follows all the rules and attend church all the time, just to reach that sensation i saw when those people who were much older than me were going to the church happily and just couldn't complete their day without their daily prayers and bible reading, they just truly loved going to that place in which all the christians should gather and love being in, that place named "Church".
Unfortunately, my childhood gradually drowned in multiple miserable trials of trying to reach that sensation, i just did everything that i've been supposed to do, i've followed the rules. So i stopped going for about 3 years.
But during those years, i've been attending protestant churches, but my family's orthodox beliefs contradicted those with Protestantism, so even though i felt there much more like home, and i started doing researches about Christianity to become more aware of what i believe in. But till now i'm trying to become a stronger christian and I really need help with the thoughts that's going on lately in my head that made me severely despise the idea of religion, even though i know that Christianity's main aim is "Love" that was shown in god's sacrifice on the cross, but i just can't see that unconditional love in Christianity or any other belief when i deeply think about what's truly going on ,so i stopped going there as i truly felt completely lost because of what's written below.

And that's where the true questions and insecurities of this whole piece of writing falls.

When i started thinking about the idea of religion and the many religions on Earth, and how each religion believes that others would go to hell just because of the difference in beliefs , that's just felt completely torturing and depressing, it actually still feels like this. Since Christianity believes that you must believe that Jesus is the son of god to enter heaven, but Islam believes that if you believe that, then you're going to hell!. And of course the rest of the religions on earth carries the same beliefs that it's the only right and truthful religion and only its followers are going to rest in peace in without eternal torture and pain.

And with all the religions defending themselves that they're the right one, trying to make others worship their right religions for the sake of saving them from eternal darkness that they would face from their wrong beliefs.

The concept itself is completely disturbing for me, as why such a wise and a loving god would primarily judge you upon your beliefs? Why does everything lies around what you believe in? Why does all the religions firmly focuses on the belief itself and just say but you have to do good deeds in order to complete the whole package, but if you lose the right belief aspect then you good deeds are nearly useless?
Why can't good deeds be the reason for the place people are determined to go to eternally, is the relation between a belief and a deed truly what makes a person privileged to enter that placed called heaven, it's an equation i just never understood, but it's apparently important.
And i have many Muslim friends and acquaintances here in Egypt that i just truly unconditionally love, when i see the sparkle in their eyes when they talk about things they admire, and when i feel that love they have for me, coupled with them being so pure and angelic from the inside, it just makes me sad that their beliefs and mine believe that someone of us is going to hell because of their faith, so religion is an extremely sensitive subject that's never mentioned.
I have never understood why having a faith is that crucial in religions, why is god so interested in what you believe in? Can't he understand all the pressures that a family puts on you especially in the middle east if you changed religions? Even if you people kept saying that you must sacrifice in order to reach the truth and the right way, i just can't get all the hassle that religions have created for that one tiny aspect.
I still believe in Christianity, but things are extremely cloudy for me.
If i had the choice not to be born on this Earth with so many chances of having a dark eternal destiny, i would have surely chose it.

I have always thought about an Earth without all the barriers that religion has created, it would have been much more peaceful and simple.

Having a belief without parameters and limits is a very abstract concept.

If you look at this Earth, even nature itself shows its boundaries and patterns. We thus develop systems, rules, laws, based on already existing truths and create a practice or routine around it in respect, thus religion, thus science, thus anything organized. Those who respect it have no quarrels, it's only those that want to go against it have the problems.

God in his word already reveals himself. He gave us the what and whatnots and all the backstory. He promised that we will have tribulation, some even persecuted. He promised also that those that endure will have eternal life. He never promised life to be fair, but that he will judge fairly according to HIS laws, because this is HIS world, and HE must know the ins and outs more than we do, and HE has the authority. If you are abiding by that, and you actually trust Him, then where is the fear and confusion coming from? Is it that it doesn't gel with your thinking, theory, or idea of God?

 

[dzheremi]

Lord have mercy upon your handmaiden, Elena.

Welcome to CF. I hope you find your time here edifying and helpful.

I don't feel right saying too much about your personal thoughts and problems, but instead just to pray. I will say, however, that we must believe in our Orthodox faith that to whatever degree the Muslims or whoever else (even other Christians) say otherwise than what we have been given, their belief is wrong, but it is still up to God to judge them as individuals. And He will judge justly and give to each one according to their deeds, as we pray in the holy liturgy.

And Christ our God says that eternal life is to know Him, so we can and should pray that everyone know Him -- our Muslim friends, our family and friends of all churches and beliefs, and also we ourselves. I am also Orthodox, but not Egyptian, and I have been wisely warned by holy priests and monks born into the faith that many who convert to our faith may fall in love with it (its rites, its history, etc.) and only later come to truly love Christ. So rather than worry about what will happen to the others, I try to tell myself every day that this is a new opportunity to know the Lord of salvation, and to grow in love for Him. It is a way of staying positive about the faith, even if the experience of church is hard for you (and it is for me, as a convert from a non-Orthodox background). Lord have mercy.

I cannot tell if you are specifically Coptic Orthodox, as I am, or are of the Greek-believing minority in Egypt. But if you are Coptic, maybe you will know or remember the second psali for Sunday tasbeha. It is a prayer that I find myself praying a lot (together with the morning and evening prayers from the Agpeya, if I am not too tired...Lord have mercy). Maybe it will enrich you, as well.

+++

I sought after You, from the depths of my heart, my Lord Jesus, help me.
Loosen for me, all the bonds of sin, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Be a help to me, so that You may save me, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ May Your goodness, come speedily to me, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

Overshadow me, with the shadow of Your wings, my Lord Jesus, help me.
In six days You have made, all the creation, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Seven times everyday, I will praise Your name, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ All the creation, glorifies Your name, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

Yours is the lordship, and the authority, my Lord Jesus, help me.
Make haste O my God, so that You may save me, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Every knee, bows down before You, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ All the diverse tongues, together bless Your name, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

Turn away Your face, from all of my sins, my Lord Jesus, help me.
Blot out O God, all my iniquities, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ You know my thoughts, and You search my reins, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ Create in me, a clean heart, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

Your Holy Spirit, do not take away from me, my Lord Jesus, help me.
Incline Your ears, make haste and hear me, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Set before me a law, in the way of Your justice, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ Your kingdom O my God, is an eternal kingdom, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

You are the Son of God, I believe in You, my Lord Jesus, help me.
You who carries the sins of the world, have mercy upon me, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Forgive me the multitude, of my transgressions, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ All of the souls, together bless Your name, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

Have patience with me, do not hasten to destroy me, my Lord Jesus, help me.
Early in the morning, I will rise and bless Your name, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Your yoke is sweet, and Your burden is light, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ In the accepted time, hear me, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

O how beloved, is Your holy name, my Lord Jesus, help me.
Disperse away from me, all of the devils, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+ Sow within me, the seed of Your righteousness, my Lord Jesus, help me.
+ Grant us Your true peace, and forgive us our sins, my Lord Jesus Christ, help me.

+++

I imagine you can also find it in Arabic on any Coptic website (I tried to to put it here instead of the English, but it would not display correctly ).

Lord have mercy. I will pray that you are comforted in your heart and will be strengthened in the Orthodox faith of all our holy fathers and mothers. The wealth of spiritual nourishment and holiness we have been given by them is invaluable and endless, but even greater than that is the love of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, the Lover of Mankind, Who does not desire the death of the sinner, but rather that they return and live, and Who calls all to salvation for the promises of the blessings to come.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've recently joined this forum for the main purpose of pouring all my thoughts that i have been caging for quite a while, since i feel that is that's the way things are, and that's how people are brought up since they were little kids, but that's for me is extremely torturing.

Let me explain myself a bit more, instead of this "too vague" introduction.

I'm an Egyptian christian female that's born in an orthodox christian family that's used to going to church for the the holy Eucharist every Friday (Instead of Sundays as our weekend is Friday and Saturday unlike European countries).
But from many years, that's not how things are working out for me. I have completely stopped attending church and going to Sunday school, i only go to church on ceremonies just to please my family, and to make them happy.
And that's not because i'm a wild teenager that's bored from church, it's way more personal than that.
Well, my childhood memories in church wasn't the best, i was a shy child that was just staying in the corner, i have always been the good and the perfect child that follows all the rules and attend church all the time, just to reach that sensation i saw when those people who were much older than me were going to the church happily and just couldn't complete their day without their daily prayers and bible reading, they just truly loved going to that place in which all the christians should gather and love being in, that place named "Church".
Unfortunately, my childhood gradually drowned in multiple miserable trials of trying to reach that sensation, i just did everything that i've been supposed to do, i've followed the rules. So i stopped going for about 3 years.
But during those years, i've been attending protestant churches, but my family's orthodox beliefs contradicted those with Protestantism, so i stopped going there, even though i felt there much more like home. Anyway, i started doing researches about Christianity to become more aware of what i believe in. But till now i'm trying to become a stronger christian and I really need help with the thoughts that's going on lately in my head that made me severely despise the idea of religion, even though i know that Christianity's main aim is "Love" that was shown in god's sacrifice on the cross, but i just can't see that unconditional love in Christianity or any other belief when i deeply think about what's truly going on ,so i stopped going there as i truly felt completely lost because of what's written below.

And that's where the true questions and insecurities of this whole piece of writing falls.

When i started thinking about the idea of religion and the many religions on Earth, and how each religion believes that others would go to hell just because of the difference in beliefs , that's just felt completely torturing and depressing, it actually still feels like this. Since Christianity believes that you must believe that Jesus is the son of god to enter heaven, but Islam believes that if you believe that, then you're going to hell!. And of course the rest of the religions on earth carries the same beliefs that it's the only right and truthful religion and only its followers are going to rest in peace in without eternal torture and pain.

And with all the religions defending themselves that they're the right one, trying to make others worship their right religions for the sake of saving them from eternal darkness that they would face from their wrong beliefs.

The concept itself is completely disturbing for me, as why such a wise and a loving god would primarily judge you upon your beliefs? Why does everything lies around what you believe in? Why does all the religions firmly focuses on the belief itself and just say but you have to do good deeds in order to complete the whole package, but if you lose the right belief aspect then your good deeds are nearly useless?
Why can't good deeds be the reason for the place people are determined to go to eternally, is the relation between a belief and a deed truly what makes a person privileged to enter that placed called heaven, it's an equation i just never understood, but it's apparently important.
And i have many Muslim friends and acquaintances here in Egypt that i just truly unconditionally love, when i see the sparkle in their eyes when they talk about things they admire, and when i feel that love they have for me, coupled with them being so pure and angelic from the inside, it just makes me sad that their beliefs and mine believe that someone of us is going to hell because of their faith, so religion is an extremely sensitive subject that's never mentioned.
I have never understood why having a faith is that crucial in religions, why is god so interested in what you believe in? Can't he understand all the pressures that a family puts on you especially in the middle east if you changed religions? Even if you people kept saying that you must sacrifice in order to reach the truth and the right way, i just can't get all the hassle that religions have created for that one tiny aspect.
I still believe in Christianity, but things are extremely cloudy for me.
If i had the choice not to be born on this Earth with so many chances of having a dark eternal destiny, i would have surely chose it.

I have always thought about an Earth without all the barriers that religion has created, it would have been much more peaceful and simple.

It sounds to me like you are becoming a more mature and thoughtful person. Loving other people is important, and that is the way of Jesus. I would say you aren't wrong at all to raise these sorts of questions about religion. It may be that your religious background doesn't provide the tools to grapple with these challenges in a satisfying way, I don't know (I know very little about the Coptic Church). But there are resources out there. Just keep seeking.

Some Protestant churches provide very simplistic kinds of answers about faith and God, and I think its going to be challenging for you to continue down that path. But not all Protestants are necessarily like that. There are Protestants out there that do not focus on believing their religion is the only right one. But they are generally what is called "liberal". I don't know about their presence in Egypt, though sometimes Anglicans are more open to that religious perspective.

There is a subform called Whosever Will, May Come here on the forum, and maybe that could help you get it touch with more liberal Protestant perspectives. There is also a forum for Orthodox and Coptic/Oriental Christians, respectively. Maybe they could help you.

 

[Greg J.]

@Elana0123, the way I read your post is that you have several issues:

1. Which God is the real God
2. Why would a loving God send people to hell that you personally see are good people, and perhaps, How can so many people be wrong about God?
   
3. How your past has affected how you see church, faith, yourself, and what should you do about it.

1. Believe the people who talk about their experiences of God more than the people who have learned about God by listening and reading. Obey Jesus Christ. To know what he is like and what he wants you to do, study the New Testament of the Bible yourself. Jesus reveals himself to those that obey his commands. Then you don't have to wonder which God is the real God.

Jesus said: Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” (John 14:21, 1984 NIV)

It might be useful to try to find people who are close to God (and reveals himself in their lives) by attending prayer meetings (where the only thing done is pray to Jesus) and ask people about their experiences of God.

2. Sin is a rejection of God. Because our ancestors sinned, we were born with their nature that is tainted by sin. God created Adam connected to God, holy, pure, and righteous. But by rejecting God, Adam cut that connection and it changed his own nature to no longer be connected to the only Source of Life. He was tainted with sin. After that he could only give birth to children with his tainted nature, and there hasn't been anything a descendant of Adam could do change their nature. Our nature condemns us even before God judges us for what we did in our lives. We cannot withstand God's presence (now or after we die), because sin is destroyed in God's presence. That is the nature of God and the nature of sin. The Bible likens the two to light (for God) and darkness (for Satan and sin). God created hell for Satan, who was the first to reject God. Those who die having still disconnected from the only Source of Life can go no where else other than to where those who have rejected God can go.

That is why we need to be saved, and why God sent Jesus to die. His death opened the door to forgiveness from God, so if we ask God (the one who's Son died for us) for forgiveness, he forgives us. Jesus paid the moral debt we had to God, but by itself that doesn't mean we want to be forgiven. We still have to want to be saved through Jesus, otherwise we have rejected the only way we can be forgiven.

However, this (by itself) doesn't change our nature. Fortunately because God loves us and after the moral hindrance between Him and a person is satisfied, he grants us a spiritual rebirth. That nature we had that was tainted with sin passes away and we are born again in Christ. We are recreated joined with Christ which gives us a nature of love, purity, goodness, without any sin whatsoever. You will note that our sinful nature passing away and being reborn sounds like dying and being recreated, and that is what God does for us. God created us with a free will and he will not override our free will. If we do not willing yield control of our life and death to God, he morally cannot give us a rebirth. So to be saved, we have to believe God and Jesus are real (otherwise in our hearts, we'd only be making a commitment to an idea), and accept him as our Lord—the one that has the right to tell use what is right and wrong and what to do and what not to do. We need to give control of every area of our life to God.

3. The nature of our faith is what reveals what our relationship to God is like. Since we cannot see God and live, we have to choose to entrust ourselves to him before we see him. That is why we are saved through faith alone. Except we can't just choose to genuinely believe in God because we want to. God wants to save every person on earth, and so he draws people to him and reveals himself in various ways. The people who do not want to receive this real God will usually not be able to see the evidence of the real God around them. To those that choose to start walking toward him, he grants more faith. The faith needed to believe in the real God and then be saved (if we want) is given to us by God through obedience to Him (or whenever He wants). It is this obedience that proclaims who you want your Lord to be. A person who obeys someone other than God/Jesus is also deciding who their Lord is. God says it this way: you are a slave to the one you obey. Being obedient to God and being his "slave" allows him to grant us freedom, which he does, and we have eternal life in Him. Where a person wants to go when they die is not determined by how good or evil they were; it is determined by who was their Lord.

Regarding church: make your focus Jesus himself and getting to know what he is like through studying the New Testament. This will lead you to being able to evaluate who it is safe to get spiritual help/truth from. When you can evaluate Bible study groups to see if they profess what you have read in the Bible, then you can get a lot of help from them. Until then you can also watch sermons from mainstream Christian pastors for accurate information: R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, probably Wayne Grudem, and anyone any of those men recommend.

Church is not just for learning about Jesus (and sometimes they don't focus on Jesus enough), but it is also a way to find friends who agree with the foundational truths that orient your life.

I hope this clears some of your questions up. Feel free to post follow-up questions or new questions. God made you as you are, loves you, and desires you just as you are! Flee from anyone that says that you can be good enough in life to be pure and holy enough to go into God's presence when you die. You can only be pure and holy enough by being joined with God's Savior. To do so, confess your sins to him, ask him to enter your heart, and make a heartfelt commitment to him that he is now Lord over all your life and death. Study Scripture to see his many promises for those who entrust themselves to him and ask him for what you need. This is the path to experiencing God's love for you.