70 week in Daniel fulfilled Jesus first coming

[Daniel Marsh]

Hi Adventist Friends, decades ago a SDA friend explained how the 70 weeks were fulfilled at Jesus first coming. I do not remember how he explained it. Please go through it all with the math and dates involved.

Thanks,
Daniel

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Adventist Friends, decades ago a SDA friend explained how the 70 weeks were fulfilled at Jesus first coming. I do not remember how he explained it. Please go through it all with the math and dates involved.

Thanks,
Daniel

Thanks Daniel - and glad to have this opportunity to discuss it.

1. The 490 years of Dan 9 begin in 457 B.C. when the decree of Artaxerxes reached Jerusalem in Ezra 7.
2. All Bible timelines are contiguous by definition. So if you know the start point and length - you always know the end-point.
3. All Apocalyptic timelines use the historicist day-for-year model so in Dan 9 the 490 days are 490 years.
4. the 69th week completes at the point that Christ is anointed by the Holy Spirit for His ministry - at His baptism. And so begins the 70th week. 27 A.D. Christ confirms the covenant - 1 Cor 11:25
5. In the midst of the 70th week Messiah the prince of Daniel's people - is cut off. So about 31 A.D. is the date of the crucifixion - Dan 9:27.

Dan 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering​

Christ's death ends sacrifice and grain offering significance Heb 10:4-12 "He takes away the first to establish the second" speaking of "sacrifices and offerings" - at the cross.

6. At the end of the 70th week - 34 A.D. the gospel goes to the gentiles as Paul reminds us at the end of Acts 13.

Acts 13:
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first. Since you repudiate it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us,

‘I have appointed You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’”​

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of (seal up, complete) sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

1 Thess 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all people, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always reach the limit of their sins. But wrath has come upon them fully.

 

[BobRyan]

The historicist day for year model is the one used by the majority of Protestant reformers. I think many evangelical groups have now abandoned that and so have the Orthodox and Catholic groups not signed up for that. But we still think it is the correct method.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi, I disagree that Daniels 70 weeks are fulfilled in the first advent and contend the 70th week is still future. The arguments for it being fulfilled are not without merit and I can see how some can hold that view. The 6 precepts accomplished in Daniels 70th week are in the context of being determined for Daniels people and the holy city Jerusalem and if we look at the parallel passages about Daniels people and Jerusalem it makes more sense that it is future.

Here are the six precepts accomplished in the 70 weeks.

“Seventy weeks[fn] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[fn] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Now if we think of all the other prophecy about Daniels people and Jerusalem I think it becomes clear that the abomination of desolation is future and the sacrifices will be resumed and the man of sin revealed in the temple is the beast of Rev 13 and he has 42 months of power which would be the middle of the week. Dan 7 notes the same timeline of the pompous one persecuting for a time times and half a time until the kingdom is given to one like the son of man who is before the ancient of days and he has the kingdom that covers the earth and has no end. This points to the second coming.

Jer 3 on Jerusalem and Daniels people.

14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Now when is the throne of the LORD established? Zech 14 shows the 2nd coming and the LORD is king over all the earth. The Mt of Olives splits in two and a new river forms that one branch flows east which would take it into the dead sea which when you get to Ezekiel 47 we see the dead sea is promised to be healed and a prosperous fishing town and at that same time the 12 tribes receive their inheritance within the known borders of Israel. You see if you look at Luke 1 Jesus mission is clearly spelled out and he is to take the throne f David and reign forever. He is also noted to keep the covenants oaths, promises and prophecies that Israel will be delivered from their enemies and then worship and serve the LORD now in holiness all the days of their lives.

Again the 2nd coming regarding Daniels people and he holy city. Ad to that Isaiah 61 the day of vengeance of our God and the same before and after story of Daniels people and the holy city is told again. This may seem like an long answer but Ive barely touched the many verses that tell the same before and after story.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi, I disagree that Daniels 70 weeks are fulfilled in the first advent and contend the 70th week is still future. The arguments for it being fulfilled are not without merit and I can see how some can hold that view.

Start with the firs two irrefutable foundation points to make your case.

1. The 490 years of Dan 9 begin in 457 B.C. when the decree of Artaxerxes reached Jerusalem in Ezra 7.
2. All Bible timelines are contiguous by definition. So if you know the start point and length - you always know the end-point.

By definition that is how a timeline works. No way around it.

Your objection then is to the very basics of logic because you agree on the start point -- and know that the start of the 70th week (after 69 weeks) is the first coming of Christ. That leaves only the irrefutable point of how a timeline actually works -- by definition.

In your post you never show us that timelines with start point and length - are "still indeterminate". You assume it but never show that timelines were ever working that way in all of time.

In my post I show the NT answer for

1. Messiah cut off
2. Stop sacrifice and offering
3. Firm covenant for one week.
4. Fill up the measure of sin, guilt and iniquity for Israel
5. Seal up vision and prophecy ( concerning Israel and the Messiah)

Dan 9:24 YLT "to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity"

"to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity," NASB

1 Thess 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all people, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always reach the limit of their sins. But wrath has come upon them fully.

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world"


Atonement was made at the cross - that takes us to the middle of the 70th week - and Christ's death on the cross.

The NT explicitly provides the answer for each one in the life of Christ.

Dan 9 starts with the Jeremiahs' timeline of 70 years - which has a start point and a length and so -- has a known end point.

And the chapter ends with the 70 weeks of 490 prophetic days - so "day for a year" - which also has a start point and a length.

By definition a timeline with a known start point and length - always has a known endpoint.

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 3 on Jerusalem and Daniels people.

14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Jeremiah is writing before the return of Israel from Babylonian captivity - that return already happened by the time that the 69th week of Dan 9 had been completed. Jeremiah predicts a future - where Israel is returned from Babylonian captivity. Israel was taken captive during Jeremiah's lifetime but Jeremiah did not live to see the end of his 70 year timeline for their return.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi your reply is as expected as many hold to your views. The case I made for Daniels people and the Holy city being the focus of the 6 objectives you largely glossed over especially where it fits the prophecy of Luke one with Jesus providing the deliverance from the enemies to Daniels people at the time He takes the throne of David. Jer 3 noted Jerusalem will be the throne of the LORD. ZEch 14 shows the kingdom coming like Rev and the MT of Olives splits in two and the river formed in Eze 47 is going to heal the dead sea at that time the 12 tribes get their inheritance. The point you make is the time line is continuous and not gap until the 70th week. You also note the day of vengeance came upon Israel and I assume that is referring to 70AD.

Now Daniel in order predicts that from the going forth of the order to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls shall be 7 and 62 weeks or 69 weeks until Messiah who shall be cut off and not for himself so far we are in agreement as to the start point. Jesus noted when He road in on the foal of an ass that this was the day of their visitation. Now here you are noting that the middle of the week is the cross. And it is pointing to Jesus coming in not being baptized 3.5 years earlier. So Daniel himself says after Messiah is cut off then the people of the prince who shall come will destroy the city Jerusalem and the sanctuary (temple)
. Then Daniels says that the prince who shall come will put an end to the sacrifice in the middle of the week. So the odds of compound probability of making the 70th week separate include Daniels seeing the rebuilding of the temple not once but twice. This is after a long gap in between where there was no Israel on the map. Now the kingdom that comes and covers the earth can only have on start date. I see it as Zech 14 Rev 19 and other places which all have this event coming after a 42 month reign of terror by the beast. Now 42 months is exactly the middle of the week. So in Hosea 3 we see an odd verse that speaks large to this coming of the kingdom.
Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
When Jesus came through and dwelt among us in those days the temple and the sacrifice has been up and running for hundreds of years continuously. Now it has been many days without sacrifice of a king and every preparation for the 3rd temple and return of the sacrifice has been made and this is the strongest support for the futurist view as the man of sin will be revealed in the temple and this guy is destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the LORD.

We talked a bit about the day of vengeance and again the idea of a gap in prophecy and since there is no verse that says there is no gap in prophecy your rule is an opinion and nothing more. In Isaiah 61 Jesus took the scroll and read a statement about the Spirit of the LORD being upon Him and read until is stopped with Jesus declaring the acceptable year of the LORD and Jesus said this prophecy was about him and fulfilled in that day. Now the rest of the passage is declaring what God accomplishes in the day of vengeance and it is worth a look.

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

The judgement was certainly upon Israel in 70AD but the LORD in LUKE one says Jesus is going to keep the promises prophecies and oaths and covenant to deliver Israel. And God says in Jer 31 that Israel will never cease to be a nation and God will never cut them off for all they have done. Here in the day of vengeance Israel is saved and delivered and not destroyed. This again points to the 2nd coming after the beast has been revealed in the temple which would make him the prince to come who put an end to the sacrifice in the middle of the week which would make Hosea 1 a latter time prophecy about Israel going many days without a sacrifice quite relevant. You cannot deny that an evil global government is rising and that Israel the Temple Institute has everything ready for the sacrifice to return. This makes your view a bit like those in Noah's day seeing the ark finished and the animals showing up and still denying a flood would come. The odds of all this lining up as futurist take from a literal interpretation are astronomical. And indeed it is lined up precisely.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi your reply is as expected as many hold to your views.

Agreed. I keep pointing out the Bible details in Dan 9 that get explicit fulfillment in the text of the NT and to the logical fallacy that was suggested where a timeline with a known start point and length "surely must not have" a known end point in time.

All the details you skipped over in your reply. And I understand why you may need to do that.

Hi Dan gives two starting points.

Dan 9 contains the 70 weeks timeline and the 70 weeks have only one start point.

Even your statement "switches" from a start point for the 70 weeks - to a start point for one week. But that fails as long as it is the 70th then it is the 70 weeks and the 70 have only one starting point.

You have admitted that what you "needed to find" in Dan 9 was TWO timelines - and two start points:

1. A 69 week prophecy with its own start point and duration of 69 weeks (483 years)
2. A 1 week prophecy with its own start point and duration of 1 week (7 years)​

IF Dan 9 had said "69 weeks are determined for your people - from the decree to rebuild"

followed by a Dan 9 text saying

"1 week is decreed - from this other historic event - one week of years"

Then you would have the perfect structure to fit in two disconnected timelines.

But instead we find a 70 week timeline in Dan 9... and that is the problem with your suggestion in a nutshell.

 

[BobRyan]

The case I made for Daniels people and the Holy city being the focus of the 6 objectives you largely glossed over especially where it fits the prophecy of Luke one with Jesus providing the deliverance from the enemies

Another place where your argument seemed to be lacking.

John starts off his ministry saying that the Messiah is coming -- taking names and kicking people ... but later when in prison and realizing Christ is not coming in to rescue him - he sends his disciples to Christ "are you the messiah or do we seek another" - Jesus was rejected by the Jews rather than embraced by them.

God would not deliver the Jews from the Romans while still in rebellion. John's entire ministry was to "prepare the way for the LORD" - to get the nation of Israel to accept their Messiah... That did not happen, the Jews were not freed... and Jesus leaves them in Matt 23 with the "curse of Solomon" saying "behold your house is left to you desolate".

If one is just looking at freedom from Roman oppressors to be accomplished - it was a fail. If one is looking for the great revival and return of Israel to the Messiah - that did not happen. Their time of probation (as a nation) ended when the 490 year timeline completed in 34 A.D.

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 3 noted Jerusalem will be the throne of the LORD. ZEch 14 shows the kingdom coming like Rev and the MT of Olives splits in two

True but like Ezek 47 that you also point to - none of those chapters say that it happens inside the single 490 timeline of Dan 9 nor does Dan 9 reference them.

 

[BobRyan]

The point you make is the time line is continuous and not gap until the 70th week.

The point I make is that timelines "by definition" are fully determined once you know the start point and the length "by definition".

So "yes" that basic point of logic is "still true" even in Dan 9. It is how timelines work.

Many readers of this post - will get this point instantly.

 

[BobRyan]

You also note the day of vengeance came upon Israel and I assume that is referring to 70AD.

I never use the term "day of vengeance" at all in my post.

Dan 9
7 weeks --> 49 years to rebuilld Jerusalem - starting in 457 B.C.
+ 62 weeks ---> 483 years total - until the Messiah is anointed for ministry -- 27 A.D.

NET:
27 He (the Messiah) will confirm a covenant with many for one week. 1 Cor 11:25
But in the middle of that week
He (Christ/Messiah) will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt. (Heb 10:4-11)
On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys,
until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys.”

The second half of Dan 9:27 is not inside the 490 years - it is the abomination of Desolation that Christ mentions in Matt 24 regarding the destruction of Israel.

Dan 9 says "26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."

And the 62 weeks are after the first seven - so then "AFTER" the 69 weeks" - the messiah is to be cut off. That is a reference to what happens in that 70th week. In the midst of it - Christ is crucified, cut-off, and He then makes animal sacrifices and offerings to cease - Heb 10:4-11 as the NT confirms.

Now here you are noting that the middle of the week is the cross. And it is pointing to Jesus coming in not being baptized 3.5 years earlier.

The term in Daniel 9 is "the anointed one" for Messiah. Jesus is anointed for the start of his Ministry by the Holy Spirit descending as a dove at His baptism.

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Vs 25 tells us that at the end of that 69th week we have the 'Messiah' - the "anointed one" begin His ministry.

Jesus is "cut off" after that point in time (so in the 70th week) and in fact specifically in the midst of that week He does what Heb 10:4-11 says He does regarding sacrifice and offering,

Heb 10:

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
​

So Daniel himself says after Messiah is cut off -- after the 69th week (which is in the 70th week by definition) and in fact in the midst of that 70th week.

Daniel does not say "the prince who shall come will put an end to the sacrifice in the middle of the week.
Rather he says this --

27 He (the Messiah) will confirm a covenant with many for one week. 1 Cor 11:25
But in the middle of that week
He (Christ/Messiah) will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt. (Heb 10:4-11)

And Heb 10 confirms it.

This is after a long gap in between where there was no Israel on the map.

Another one of the many problems with the suggestion you are making for Daniel 9.

 

[BobRyan]

We talked a bit about the day of vengeance and again the idea of a gap in prophecy and since there is no verse that says there is no gap in prophecy your rule is an opinion and nothing more.

That is close to a "bait and switch" .

I never said prophecies cover every second that happens in the future they predict - as we both know.

Rather I refer to the much more obvious detail about timelines "by definition". Every timeline with a start point and length - has a fully determined end point. This is irrefutable.

I keep repeating this detail and you keep avoiding it when not completely turning it into something about "prophecies" having no gaps in the future. (And of course I do agree with you that prophecies are not mentioning every detail in the future). But that has nothing to do with the irrefutable fact that all timelines are fully determined once you know the start point and the duration/length

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Another place where your argument seemed to be lacking.

John starts off his ministry saying that the Messiah is coming -- taking names and kicking people ... but later when in prison and realizing Christ is not coming in to rescue him - he sends his disciples to Christ "are you the messiah or do we seek another" - Jesus was rejected by the Jews rather than embraced by them.

God would not deliver the Jews from the Romans while still in rebellion. John's entire ministry was to "prepare the way for the LORD" - to get the nation of Israel to accept their Messiah... That did not happen, the Jews were not freed... and Jesus leaves them in Matt 23 with the "curse of Solomon" saying "behold your house is left to you desolate".

If one is just looking at freedom from Roman oppressors to be accomplished - it was a fail. If one is looking for the great revival and return of Israel to the Messiah - that did not happen. Their time of probation (as a nation) ended when the 490 year timeline completed in 34 A.D.

Hi John the Baptist was totally aware of the prophecy in Luke one and did not understand them incorrectly. What John was inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach was Jesus was the lamb of God come to take away the sin of the world. Yet Zacharias John's dad filled with the Holy Spirit declared Jesus would deliver Israel from their enemies and from the time of that deliverance they would be now holy and secure. This affirms all prophecy the covenants, promises and oaths that I have begun to share those passages. Now the error of John was not believing these things would come to pass but not knowing the when. Jesus 1st mission was to bring in the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins. Which Jesus declared and performed and after he rose he told the two disciples on the road from the scriptures all the verses that show how the Christ would die and be raised.

So the 2nd coming in the 70th week and all the prophecies promises covenants and oaths will be fulfilled in great detail. The new covenant in Jer 31 is tied to chapter 30 the day of Jacob' trouble and again it is a latter day prophecy and like Hosea mentions the return of David too and it is connected to chapter 31 .

This is amazing if you are willing to take a bit and read chapter 30 and 31 and meditate on it and do an inductive study.

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

“At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!
You shall again be adorned with your tambourines,
And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria;
The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day
When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,
‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
To the LORD our God.’ ”
7 For thus says the LORD:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the LORD—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi John the Baptist was totally aware of the prophecy in Luke one and did not understand them incorrectly. What John was inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach was Jesus was the lamb of God come to take away the sin of the world. Yet Zacharias John's dad filled with the Holy Spirit declared Jesus would deliver Israel from their enemies and from the time of that deliverance they would be now holy and secure. This affirms all prophecy the covenants, promises and oaths that I have begun to share those passages. Now the error of John was not believing these things would come to pass but not knowing the when. Jesus 1st mission was to bring in the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins. Which Jesus declared and performed and after he rose he told the two disciples on the road from the scriptures all the verses that show how the Christ would die and be raised.

So the 2nd coming in the 70th week and all the prophecies promises covenants and oaths will be fulfilled in great detail. The new covenant in Jer 31 is tied to chapter 30 the day of Jacob' trouble and again it is a latter day prophecy and like Hosea mentions the return of David too and it is connected to chapter 31 .

This is amazing if you are willing to take a bit and read chapter 30 and 31 and meditate on it and do an inductive study.

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

“At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!
You shall again be adorned with your tambourines,
And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria;
The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day
When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,
‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
To the LORD our God.’ ”
7 For thus says the LORD:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the LORD—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now Dan 9 again looking at it from the persepective of Daniels people and the Holy city we see a promise at the end of Jer 31 that the city (Jerusalem) will be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valley and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. This is the day of Jacobs trouble is when antichrist comes to Israel and the LORD comes with his saints. Those bodies will be there and the city will need rebuilding and from then on it will never be thrown down and declared Holy by the LORD. This comes after Israel has been gathered in the latter days and again David is raised up.

Think about everlasting righteousness. God is always and has been the same perfect in righteousness. But for Daniels people and Jerusalem there has not been this. In Isaiah 9
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

This is when the LORD comes and is king over all the earth Justice and judgement will be amazing as Satan is bound for this 1000 years. This is what everlasting righteousness is coming in. This upholds Luke one as Jesus will accomplish all this in the 70th week.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The point I make is that timelines "by definition" are fully determined once you know the start point and the length "by definition".

So "yes" that basic point of logic is "still true" even in Dan 9. It is how timelines work.

Many readers of this post - will get this point instantly.

Hi Dan gives two starting points. From the order to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls is 7 and 62 weeks then the people of the prince who shall come will destroy...This prince who shall come shall confirm a covenant with the many for 1 week and in the middle of the week shall put an end to the sacrifices. The start time for the 70th week will be a covenant with the many. It is the rider on the white horse riding in to conquer in Rev and by chapter 13 he has gained dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation. This man is revealed in the Temple 2 Thess 2 performing lying signs and wonders and this is when the abomination of desolation occurs in the 3rd temple and we can see in REv 13 the beast with 42 months to go rolls out the image and mark of the beast.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi John the Baptist was totally aware of the prophecy in Luke one and did not understand them incorrectly. What John was inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach was Jesus was the lamb of God come to take away the sin of the world. Yet Zacharias John's dad filled with the Holy Spirit declared Jesus would deliver Israel from their enemies and from the time of that deliverance they would be now holy and secure

Which of course Jesus will do at the rapture/second-coming of Rev 19 also described in 2 Thess 1. But no mention of this is found in Dan 9.

And Jesus "would have" delivered Israel 2000 years ago if they had not rejected Him.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

. So the 2nd coming in the 70th week and all the prophecies promises covenants and oaths will be fulfilled in great detail.

There is no second coming in the 70th week of Dan 9. Rather Dan 9 is all about predicting the work of Christ at His first coming.

The new covenant in Jer 31 is tied to chapter 30 the day of Jacob' trouble

No it is not. The New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 is identical to the New Covenant of Heb 8:6-12. It is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 - preached even to Abraham Gal 3:8 and under which both Moses and Elijah stood with Christ "in glory" - in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
The point I make is that timelines "by definition" are fully determined once you know the start point and the length "by definition".

So "yes" that basic point of logic is "still true" even in Dan 9. It is how timelines work.

Many readers of this post - will get this point instantly.

Hi Dan gives two starting points.

Daniel 9 gives only one starting point for the 70 weeks (490 year timeline).

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress.

That's it. That is the only starting point for the 70 weeks in Dan 9. There is no other. This is irrefutable.

The start time for the 70th week will be a covenant with the many.

Dan 9 contains the 70 weeks timeline and the 70 weeks have only one start point.
Even your statement "switches" from a start point for the 70 weeks - to a start point for one week. But that fails as long as it is the 70th then it is the 70 weeks and the 70 have only one starting point.

You have admitted that what you "needed to find" in Dan 9 was TWO timelines -
1. A 69 week prophecy with its own start point and duration
2. A 1 week prophecy with its own start point and duration.

IF Dan 9 had said "69 weeks are determined for your people - from the decree to rebuild"

followed by a Dan 9 text saying

"1 week is decreed - from this other historic event - one week of years"

Then you would have the perfect structure to fit in two disconnected timelines.

But instead we find a 70 week timeline in Dan 9... and that is the problem with your suggestion in a nutshell.

 

[BobRyan]

we see a promise at the end of Jer 31 that the city (Jerusalem) will be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valley and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. .

Jer 31 is not in Dan 9 and neither chapter references the other.


Jer 31.
38 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead, to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 And the entire valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it will not be uprooted or overthrown ever again.”

God's restoration of Israel from captivity - which began at the end of Jeremiah's 70 year timeline (see Dan 9:1-7) would continue to even greater levels had Israel not rejected her Messiah. But as it is "behold your house is left unto you desolate" is the curse of Solomon pronounced on Israel by Christ in Matt 23 at the end of His ministry on Earth.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Thanks Daniel - and glad to have this opportunity to discuss it.

1. The 490 years of Dan 9 begin in 457 B.C. when the decree of Artaxerxes reached Jerusalem in Ezra 7.
2. All Bible timelines are contiguous by definition. So if you know the start point and length - you always know the end-point.
3. All Apocalyptic timelines use the historicist day-for-year model so in Dan 9 the 490 days are 490 years.
4. the 69th week completes at the point that Christ is anointed by the Holy Spirit for His ministry - at His baptism. And so begins the 70th week. 27 A.D. Christ confirms the covenant - 1 Cor 11:25
5. In the midst of the 70th week Messiah the prince of Daniel's people - is cut off. So about 31 A.D. is the date of the crucifixion - Dan 9:27.

Dan 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering​

Christ's death ends sacrifice and grain offering significance Heb 10:4-12 "He takes away the first to establish the second" speaking of "sacrifices and offerings" - at the cross.

6. At the end of the 70th week - 34 A.D. the gospel goes to the gentiles as Paul reminds us at the end of Acts 13.

Acts 13:
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first. Since you repudiate it and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us,

‘I have appointed You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’”​

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of (seal up, complete) sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

1 Thess 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all people, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always reach the limit of their sins. But wrath has come upon them fully.

Thank You Brother,
daniel