666

[ikester]

Who was emperor when sacrifice and oblation ceased?

if your refering to temple destruction....Vespasian.....but did sacrifice and oblation cease......it is still practiced today.....only without temple..

 

[ikester]

I believe scripture too. First and foremost and the historical evidence that backs it up. Makes for great witnessing when you can point to facts outside of the bible that prove all those people, places and events really did happen....for those nonbelievers.

so what's your witness.......the great tribulation is a done deal.....when in fact history and scripture doesn't line up in that regard.....135 ad.....was also rebellion and slaughter in Jerusalem....yet we still have Daniel and Ezekiel to deal with......

 

[FreeinChrist]

It's actually kind of ironic but you are solidifying my opinions as we speak. Besides, you make it sound like I am attacking pre-tribbers. I am not. I am only voicing my experience regarding why people beleive this theory. And the more you type, the more evidence I have to support that idea. Oh yeah, and quit avoiding the subject.

I'm solidifying your opinions? LOL! Well, you are solidifyng mine, too, in that you aren't really saying much at all.

 

[justified]

No, one cannot tell such a thing from Scriptures that Nero is the final man of sin -for he was not destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the Son of Man on His throne of glory to rule the earth and destroy all the wicked out of it, so that their place is found no more, as He promised.

-and we're still here, and the Sabbath Rest of earth has not come and the neavens and the earth are not regenerated, and so on and so forth for dozens and dozens of obvious, not hidden, not secret reasons, that Nero was not the final man of sin... and the last end of the indignation that began at the removal of the throne of glory from the temple in Jerusalem and will culminate in the final battle over Jerusalem has not come.

See the post below on Nero, etc. You have how you view the Apocalypse first; I view it in its genre, as Apocalyptic literature. But for various reasons, I can tell you do not.

your refering to temple destruction....Vespasian.....but did sacrifice and oblation cease......it is still practiced today.....only without temple..

Sacrifices are only still done by Samaritans, not by the temple people.

 

[justified]

This is a very brief explanation. I can go into more detail on some points if necessary. Also, I can explain the so-called problems about Nero being dead and such, if you are willing to put aside some of your assumptions.

The author of the Apocalypse TELLS us how to figure out what he is talking about. Rev. 13.18, my translation: Now this is wisdom. The one who has a mind, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number of a man, and the his number is six hundred sixty six.

The author tells his readers exactly what he means. It's a man's number, which meant a number which represents a man. My friend who kindly read over this before I posted it, in case if I made some major blunder, is an expert in Classical History and mentioned that Roman graffiti would have things like, "The girl I slept with, her number is xyz." Therefore, we know exactly what is meant by the term "man's number."

And we know how to do it because there is rabbinic material that tells us what letters represented what numbers, as well as Maccabean coins which give the values of certain hebrew letters. For example, tov = 400 or aleph = 1; wav is 6 because it's the sixth letter; qoph is 100 because that's what it is (ask the rabbis).

Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Jews in the time of the NT, and of course the Apocalypse was written by a Jew. There is an example in the Dead Sea scrolls of how they spelled the name of Caesar circa AD 65: קסרנרון (qsr-nrwn = caesar nero). But there was also a variant spelling, קסרנרו (qsr-nrw = caesar nero), which eliminated the final nun which was awkward to non-aramaic speakers.

So, it's simple enough to test whether or not we have here 666, because you can just add up the values of the letters. To do this, I have used Jacob Weingreen's Practical Grammar which lists the values with the alphabet on p.1 (imagine that). The important values are:

ק qoph : 100
ס samech : 60
ר resh : 200
ו vav : 6
נ,ן nun : 50

So, if you add up the values for the Aramaic version, you have 100 + 60 + 200 (=360) for qsr; for nrwn you have 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 (=306). Add the totals together and you do get 666.

The alternative spelling lacks a nun (=50) so you get intstead 616.

Now, most of you are aware that the manuscript tradition of the NT is diverse: there are over 5000 greek manuscripts and three times as many latin, and there exist many differences in them. One of the differences is here, in Apocalypse 13:18, specifically with the number. Certain manuscripts give instead of 666, 616 (for example, Codex 'C' and some Irenaeus). This specifically is what makes me so confident about attributing the number to Nero. The fact that it was so well understood early on that Nero was the person meant that they even changed the number in some manuscripts to line up what they considered the correct spelling to be in Hebrew rather than Aramaic!

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

Great info...Thanks!

But does this somehow eliminate the possibility of a future person having also the number 666? I mean, I'm sure that there have been others whos names add up to 666 and will be others. What scripture do we look at to see that this is talking about the past?

 

[whitestar]

so what's your witness.......the great tribulation is a done deal.....when in fact history and scripture doesn't line up in that regard.....135 ad.....was also rebellion and slaughter in Jerusalem....yet we still have Daniel and Ezekiel to deal with......

Daniel and Ezekiel line up well with Revelation which if you read my post on the historal evidence or read the links I posted it would answer your questions actually.

 

[whitestar]

This is a very brief explanation. I can go into more detail on some points if necessary. Also, I can explain the so-called problems about Nero being dead and such, if you are willing to put aside some of your assumptions.

The author of the Apocalypse TELLS us how to figure out what he is talking about. Rev. 13.18, my translation: Now this is wisdom. The one who has a mind, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number of a man, and the his number is six hundred sixty six.

The author tells his readers exactly what he means. It's a man's number, which meant a number which represents a man. My friend who kindly read over this before I posted it, in case if I made some major blunder, is an expert in Classical History and mentioned that Roman graffiti would have things like, "The girl I slept with, her number is xyz." Therefore, we know exactly what is meant by the term "man's number."

And we know how to do it because there is rabbinic material that tells us what letters represented what numbers, as well as Maccabean coins which give the values of certain hebrew letters. For example, tov = 400 or aleph = 1; wav is 6 because it's the sixth letter; qoph is 100 because that's what it is (ask the rabbis).

Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Jews in the time of the NT, and of course the Apocalypse was written by a Jew. There is an example in the Dead Sea scrolls of how they spelled the name of Caesar circa AD 65: קסרנרון (qsr-nrwn = caesar nero). But there was also a variant spelling, קסרנרו (qsr-nrw = caesar nero), which eliminated the final nun which was awkward to non-aramaic speakers.

So, it's simple enough to test whether or not we have here 666, because you can just add up the values of the letters. To do this, I have used Jacob Weingreen's Practical Grammar which lists the values with the alphabet on p.1 (imagine that). The important values are:

ק qoph : 100
ס samech : 60
ר resh : 200
ו vav : 6
נ,ן nun : 50

So, if you add up the values for the Aramaic version, you have 100 + 60 + 200 (=360) for qsr; for nrwn you have 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 (=306). Add the totals together and you do get 666.

The alternative spelling lacks a nun (=50) so you get intstead 616.

Now, most of you are aware that the manuscript tradition of the NT is diverse: there are over 5000 greek manuscripts and three times as many latin, and there exist many differences in them. One of the differences is here, in Apocalypse 13:18, specifically with the number. Certain manuscripts give instead of 666, 616 (for example, Codex 'C' and some Irenaeus). This specifically is what makes me so confident about attributing the number to Nero. The fact that it was so well understood early on that Nero was the person meant that they even changed the number in some manuscripts to line up what they considered the correct spelling to be in Hebrew rather than Aramaic!

Bravo...this is what I have been posting about too....which lines up with what you are saying here also. I was unable to post the actual Herbew text though...but as was pointed out, they ommit their nouns.

My friend who kindly read over this before I posted it, in case if I made some major blunder, is an expert in Classical History and mentioned that Roman graffiti would have things like, "The girl I slept with, her number is xyz." Therefore, we know exactly what is meant by the term "man's number."

I know everyone is sick of hearing about Hank's book the Last Disciple but he uses almost the excate same example...only the graffiti he used said, "The girl I love, who's name is 2108." as an example. The point being it was a common thing back then to use numbers instead of names or words when a person wanted to be a little secerative. The Roman's would not understand it or beable to read the meaning in the numbers, which the Jewish believers in Jesus would not want them to do. So to spread the message of Nero or anything else they used graffiti using numbers which Nero could not read of course...nor those working for him, which were also Roman's. It would be like how we use to use Morse Code to commincate among the emeny in a time of war so the enemy would not know what messages we were sending to each other. Pretty neat, uh?

God bless

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

I would encourage you (even though HH seems to really knolw what he is talking about) to not take his word for it. Look at what the bible says and take NO PART of it for fact unless the bibe says the same thing. Not saying that the Nero thing isn't interesting but just be careful.

 

[justified]

Great info...Thanks!

But does this somehow eliminate the possibility of a future person having also the number 666? I mean, I'm sure that there have been others whos names add up to 666 and will be others. What scripture do we look at to see that this is talking about the past?

There's a lot in the book that makes one think the author is referring to things going on in his time. I'm not a Preterist; as a Biblical scholar I can't subscribe to Preterism: I believe in the coming of the Lord again (it's that Nicene creed thing...you just can't get past it...) but I do not believe that the Apocalypse tells you much about it.

And that has to do with how one thinks about Apocalyptic Literature. So I guess, that's a good next question:

1. What is an Apocalypse?
2. Is 'Revelation' one of them?

 

[whitestar]

I would encourage you (even though HH seems to really knolw what he is talking about) to not take his word for it. Look at what the bible says and take NO PART of it for fact unless the bibe says the same thing. Not saying that the Nero thing isn't interesting but just be careful.

Ugh Forever, and here I thought you had actually read all my replies on here...apparently you haven't...or have a bad memory or something. Why in the world would I take any one person's word on anything without scriptures and historal information to back it up? I also posted pieces of another book by another author dated much earilier then Hank's book to show this is not a new idea that Hank just dreamed up...and its not full Preterism by any means. Of course I am studying it...where do you think I am getting all my information from. I was only pointing out that justified IS saying the excate same things Hank and the other author I posted on here...you seem to be more accepting of what justified is saying even though I have been saying the excate same thing all through this thread...but because I used other authors to explain it...you just dismiss my view? But seriously consider justified even though we are saying the excate same thing? Does that make any sense? no...and its actually pretty insulting to me that you would do this....why do his words (saying the same as me) carry more weight with you?

Are you simply dismissing my replies because I quoted Hank and you don't like him or something...? Even though he IS saying the same thing as justified is? Or are you taking him more seriously then me for some other reasons?

There's a lot in the book that makes one think the author is referring to things going on in his time. I'm not a Preterist; as a Biblical scholar I can't subscribe to Preterism: I believe in the coming of the Lord again (it's that Nicene creed thing...you just can't get past it...) but I do not believe that the Apocalypse tells you much about it.

So do I and so does HH....he is NOT a full preterist by any means...he is a partial preterist as I am...we are both still waiting for the Second Coming on Jesus. I wish folks would realize there is a difference and don't assume if one is preterist it means they are full preterist...that is not allowed on here anyway.

justified..I admire your writings on here and have rooted for you many times in threads and learn much from you...maybe reading up on the difference between full preterist and partial would help. I see you very much as being partial preterist...here is a good website which I did do a thread on this fourm by the way, that explains the difference...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

Both of you untentionally hurt me just now by assuming things that should not have been assumed....and all I did was agree with a post justified did. Is Hank H. hated that much? Have you both assumed he believes in full preterist? So you think I am somehow brainwashed by his writings and can't think for myself or something? gee, I have been going all over the net looking up the historal information to varify what he and others have said in regards to Nero, the civil war in Rome etc, etc. I can think for myself you know....sheesh.

 

[justified]

I have no idea who hank H is...my apologies if I wrote something that bothered you.

 

[zaire]

So, if you add up the values for the Aramaic version, you have 100 + 60 + 200 (=360) for qsr; for nrwn you have 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 (=306). Add the totals together and you do get 666.

According to the rules of Jewish numerology, known as gematria, when the letter Nun appears a second time in a word, it is known as a "Final", and takes the value of 700. So to be precise, NRWN QSR actually adds up to 1316 and not 666.

Maybe you might want to look into this further to see if what i say is correct.

 

[zaire]

Does Nero match the description of the beast in Rev 13:11:18 ?

Did he force everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead? So that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Is this verse about the beast? If so did Nero have this on his robe and thigh?

 

[whitestar]

I have no idea who hank H is...my apologies if I wrote something that bothered you.

Apologies accepted...thank you. Hank Hanegraaff and Sigmund Brouwer are writing a series of fictional stories based on historical evidence and scriptures supporting the idea that Nero is indeed the beast in Revelation. He is doing this to counter the Left Behind books which he feels are leading people astray. They wrote this book called The Last Disciple, the first in the series. Hank H is the Bible Answer Man on a popular Christian radio station that also host people like Dr. Dobson, Adrian Rodgers (who just recently passed away) Dr. Chuck Swindoll, Dr. Charles Stanley, etc, etc. Here is Hanks' website:
http://www.equip.org/

At any rate he is fairly well known among the Christian community but has caused serious upset among many Christians when he came out with this partial Preterism view...especially has upset those that believe in a pre-trib rapture. Anyway if you read the post I did on here, using some pieces from his book they are saying the same thing you are...which is why I was rather upset that my post were not being taken seriously and I keep being told to study more (which I am) but your posts are being taken seriously even though we are posting the same thing! Anyway that is not your fault.

As I said, I enjoy reading your post and learn alot from you.

God bless
WhiteStar

 

[interpreter]

And besides, Rome was absolutely not the last 'king' that John was told of, who would reign over Jerusalem; there were [edited] two more to go.
Rome is, Ottomon turks were to come; and the End of that in 1917 has left Israel ruled by concensus of nations

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

You have hit upon the truth. However, not just the Ottoman Turks, but all the Islamic conquerors who ruled over Jerusalem are the 7th head of the beast. Islam has now trampled Jersualem and the Holy Spot underfoot for about 1260 years now, fulfilling prophecy. (see Rev. 11:2-3).

As for the 8th head of the beast, IMO, it is Hitler, with his Third Reich (of Rome) being the third six of the 6-6-6 trilogy.

Barry

 

[justified]

According to the rules of Jewish numerology, known as gematria, when the letter Nun appears a second time in a word, it is known as a "Final", and takes the value of 700. So to be precise, NRWN QSR actually adds up to 1316 and not 666.

Not necessarily a second time, but when it is final, you are right, it may take on a different value. However, there are some arguments as to when the "final" values were considered different. I think that nevertheless the 616 variant makes very clear what the original intent was.

Does Nero match the description of the beast in Rev 13:11:18 ?

Did he force everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead? So that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Is this verse about the beast? If so did Nero have this on his robe and thigh?

Are you ready to discuss the issues or do you want to throw around your interpretation? Answer me one simple question:

What is the genre of the book of Revelation?

 

[zaire]

Not necessarily a second time, but when it is final, you are right, it may take on a different value. However, there are some arguments as to when the "final" values were considered different. I think that nevertheless the 616 variant makes very clear what the original intent was.

When people try to make Nero equal to the number 666 they add an extra 'n'. When you add an extra 'n' you are making the name Nero into Neron. There is nothing to suggest that Nero was called Neron (correct me if i'm wrong).

And when people add an extra n so they can make Nero's name equal 666 they fall into the problem of final values.

So because of this you then say about the 616 thing. You may think its 616 but im going to believe the Bible when it says 666.

Some other thoughts:
The number 616 appears nowhere else in the Bible while 666 appears four other times. It appears in a verse about Solomon!

Irenaeus who lived A.D. 120-202 already knew of the 616 variation and discounted it as an error (the dead sea scoll which says 616 dates to after Irenaeus died):

Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end), — I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. — Adv. haer. 5.30​

 

[Jipsah]

if your refering to temple destruction....Vespasian.....but did sacrifice and oblation cease......it is still practiced today.....only without temple..

Where is it being practiced today?

 

[whitestar]

When people try to make Nero equal to the number 666 they add an extra 'n'. When you add an extra 'n' you are making the name Nero into Neron. There is nothing to suggest that Nero was called Neron (correct me if i'm wrong).

And when people add an extra n so they can make Nero's name equal 666 they fall into the problem of final values.

So because of this you then say about the 616 thing. You may think its 616 but im going to believe the Bible when it says 666.

Some other thoughts:
The number 616 appears nowhere else in the Bible while 666 appears four other times. It appears in a verse about Solomon!

Irenaeus who lived A.D. 120-202 already knew of the 616 variation and discounted it as an error (the dead sea scoll which says 616 dates to after Irenaeus died):

Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end), — I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. — Adv. haer. 5.30​

The book of Revelation was written to the Jews who spoke Herbrew and would translate the letters to their numbers in Herbrew....and they leave out the vowels. So on one is adding an N to Nero...actually I have never heard that before at all. So Nero Caesar is Nr Csr. I think in Greek his name adds up to 616 which is also seen in some bible translations. John was writing TO the Jews that were believers in Jesus...for what was to come. The Romans were unable to figure this out because they did not speak Herbrew or understand the numbers connected to the letters...and especially did not realize that the Herbews ommits vowels.