666: Hermeneutics and Christian Apologetics

[Quid est Veritas?]

let's not just assume with the current consensus that Nero is definitely implied by that dreaded number.

I have always found that explanation far less clear cut than people present it. It requires translating into Aramaic and applying gematria in that language, of titles not generally used therein. Usually they just used Caesar as a title itself, as it eventually became. As far as I know, there is only a single inscription in Aramaic with the required form. When they adopt the 666 vs 616 variants to support it, it becomes even sillier, as they then change the form it needs to take in Aramaic to get the new gematria. I think this is as legitimate as all these people working out how Obama or Reagan or Gorbachev or whoever, somehow amounts to 666: "If I take the title President Reagan and translate it into Latin, then add up all the values of the spaces in the Latin Alphabet, I get 666". You can see very much the same implausibility followed by exception followed by assumption, at play here; people just don't realise it, because it is conceived of long ago and in an alien time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think I am following what you are trying to imply. Are you stressing the name Revelation and the presumed Solomonic connection to think it indicates the Wisdom of man versus that of God? I mean, I can see how you can take Revelation 13:18 to refer to Wisdom - as the previous verses talked about the beast, then it declares Here is Wisdom, before speaking about 'insight' into the meaning of the number. Do you take this as Wisdom personified, and therefore perhaps being the referent itself?

In a way you're reflecting some of what I have in mind, so yes, you're catching my drift, but keep in mind that part of what I'm trying to convey here about my "Subjective" perception of the "meaning" in all of this comes by way of pondering over how we apply hermeneutics in our individual and corporate acts of reading and understanding. In addition to this, I just want to remind you that in the endeavor for us to consider these interpretive issues together, I'm directly referring to the content of the video, in both what its shortcomings could be and its possible strengths are. This in turn serves as a nexus through which we might adopt, or do better than, the approach and attempt to "understand" 666 which the author of the video has presented.

I hope I'm making the above sound sensible. I know we can all agree that some of these prophetic bits in the bible are not only difficult to interpret but downright mystical in ways and perhaps weren't given so that we really could do anything more than "peer through a glass darkly" on all of this prophetic material as it relates to this Number and Mark of the Beast. So, I'm desirous to be careful and not jump to conclusions on the one hand, but be open to exploring missed details or nuances that haven't perhaps yet be more fully recognized in these texts. Why is this important? Because if there is one thing we CAN understand clearly is that the Book of Revelation is supposed to be a "blessing" to those who read it.

Again, I do think you're catching some of what I'm catching here, but being that I'm not attempting to use this OP as some kind of smarty-pants test on the rest of everyone who might happen by, I'm simply nodding that I think we're sharing some interpretive 'feel' for this. So, yes, I am talking about a philosophical entity that is personified, or in more modern terms perhaps, Corporate Wisdom. But this Wisdom isn't the same personification that is present in the book of Proverbs; no, it's a travesty of it.

In Gnosticism, Wisdom was seen as the great deity that had fallen after all. Further, the modern Church of Satan, and perhaps the original Baphomet of mediaeval times, have been connected to Wisdom on Gematria grounds too. What better than a Solomonic conception here then, of the depths human wisdom unaided by God can plumb. Revelation, and the above Insight, are about what is revealed from without; while the Wisdom here perhaps can be construed as Self-Worship of your own reason.

Those are some interesting vignettes to consider, too, Quid, but I'm rather thinking MORE in line with something like the inherent meaning of Prometheus married to a Jewishly tempered application on a corporate level, one that expresses itself in the total shape of Solomon's Fall (and ignoring the possibility that he might have come to his senses toward the end of his life.)

After all, the Gospel was foolishness to the Greeks - so was such Wisdom then the anti-gospel, the Antichrist that destroys by doubt? I can perhaps see how you could see some post-Christian intellectual abstraction as the Beast, certainly, especially if Materialist in nature.

Yes, I think you're on my frequency here, although I might say it wouldn't be 'post-christian' necessarily, but a rather non-Christian manifestation that borrows from both the Greeks and the Jews to manifest across the world as a part of seemingly 'normal' political culture.

Or am I way off base of your meaning?

Nope. You're doing fine and running to 2nd base it looks like.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have always found that explanation far less clear cut than people present it. It requires translating into Aramaic and applying gematria in that language, of titles not generally used therein. Usually they just used Caesar as a title itself, as it eventually became. As far as I know, there is only a single inscription in Aramaic with the required form. When they adopt the 666 vs 616 variants to support it, it becomes even sillier, as they then change the form it needs to take in Aramaic to get the new gematria. I think this is as legitimate as all these people working out how Obama or Reagan or Gorbachev or whoever, somehow amounts to 666: "If I take the title President Reagan and translate it into Latin, then add up all the values of the spaces in the Latin Alphabet, I get 666". You can see very much the same implausibility followed by exception followed by assumption, at play here; people just don't realise it, because it is conceived of long ago and in an alien time.

Personally, I think on the one hand that 666 is more likely to be the correct number; on the other hand, I don't think it was ever 'really' gematria but was confused for that kind of thing. We have to remember, Revelation is a book that while written in Greek BLEEDS Jewish idiom and prophetic metaphor. The number of the beast in that overall context should be no different, yet people come to it in the text and then say, "Gee, it has to be gematria, that and only that!"

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I'm rather thinking MORE in line with something like the inherent meaning of Prometheus married to a Jewishly tempered application on a corporate level, one that expresses itself in the total shape of Solomon's Fall (and ignoring the possibility that he might have come to his senses toward the end of his life.)

Prometheus has always had a bit of a Satanic flair, as he is opposing the gods. Even his name means Forethought, and has been used as an embodiment of human wisdom. The Romantics coupled Prometheus with the figure of Satan in Paradise Lost, so we have unrepentant figures seeking to supplant the gods, such as in Shelley's Prometheus Unbound - as a metaphor for humans themselves doing so. The parallels are legion, pun intended. I think I understand perfectly what you mean, as a Jewish way of representing rebellion to God clothed in metaphors drawn from Solomonic literature, ultimately putting Man himself on the pedestal.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Prometheus has always had a bit of a Satanic flair, as he is opposing the gods. Even his name means Forethought, and has been used as an embodiment of human wisdom. The Romantics coupled Prometheus with the figure of Satan in Paradise Lost, so we have unrepentant figures seeking to supplant the gods, such as in Shelley's Prometheus Unbound - as a metaphor for humans themselves doing so. The parallels are legion, pun intended. I think I understand perfectly what you mean, as a Jewish way of representing rebellion to God clothed in metaphors drawn from Solomonic literature, ultimately putting Man himself on the pedestal.

Yep, and so I'm wondering: why 2,000 years have gone by and hardly anyone notices this? And while I'm confident you really do understand where I'm coming from, I'll just post one little academic piece below which addresses some of the hermeneutical implications of all of this for anyone who would like to venture further into understanding where I'm coming from, lest they somehow think I'm pulling all of this content in my OP from thin-air or from my behind. Of course, more sources could always be added to this one, and this is just a starting point for those who may have never looked at the book of Revelation or any of the apocalyptic material in the N.T. from this angle:

Mathewson, David. "Assessing Old Testament allusions in the book of Revelation." Evangelical Quarterly 75, no. 4 (2003): 311-326.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's refreshing to see a Christian address some sin that doesn't have anything to do with sex for once, so Kudos for that.

Since this thread seems to have stalled, I thought I'd give it a little marketing kick by adding some sex appeal, because it's not only the Lord who knows just how much the notion of 'sex appeal' sells an idea.....or a truck, or a magazine, or a video, or an i-phone app, or.................whatever else is out there these days (God forbid!). No, we know this, too, don't we? But rather than give a long dissertation on this portion of what I believe is an inferred meaning residing ALSO within the Mark of the Beast and the number we so dread, all as an ongoing expression this side of Christ as the spirit of anti-Christ (...with a little 'a'), I thought I'd let a few brief pictures and labels suffice instead .......... I think they say SO much!

NO TESTAMENT

OLD TESTAMENT

NEW TESTAMENT !!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That is interesting that 666 occurs in reference to the wealth of Solomon. The Prosperity Gospel does seem to be the antithesis of early Christianity and the sayings of Jesus.

Yes, and it also connects 3 other activities Solomon had going in addition to his exorbitant Capital. It might even be said that his capital made the other three things possible............

 

[cloudyday2]

Yes, and it also connects 3 other activities Solomon had going in addition to his exorbitant Capital. It might even be said that his capital made the other three things possible............

Hmmm. I am trying to think what the three other activities might have been - wine, women, and song?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmmm. I am trying to think what the three other activities might have been - wine, women, and song?

Good guess, but that probably only counts altogether as the second activity.

 

[Halbhh]

We've all encountered some book, movie, album cover or song, or the sensationalist church sermon that has exclaimed some kind of danger, evil or premonition regarding a number that is charged with religious dread and at times, superstition. You know that number, don't you?

Below is a video, a 17 minute + video, and like many attempts before it, it attempts to define and explain (away?) the meaning of the number, 666. Of course, I fully realize that this number as a topic has been overtreated and often reduced to, and presented, in what is otherwise stereotypically framed conspiracy theory, particularly as asserted “for days yet to come in the future.” This video will be little different than those. Yet, still, it is a little different, even if it is presented with what I think is a “conspiracy” pastiche. (And you can rest comforted to know that I didn't produce it.)

However, here's the upshot: it might surprise some to find out that this video presents this topic in a way, though not exactly, which comports with the way I “see” things and the way in which I perceive there is evidence of biblical truth in the World at Large, however diabolical in nature it may be. (Yikes!)

So, here's my quandery. I know that the number 666 and its meaning and application are seemingly up for grabs in various ways, or at least its either claimed to be so or it has seemingly proven to be so due to many mistakes Christans have made in the past in attempting to apply it or decipher it. So here's my question for anyone and everyone, both Christian and Skeptic alike:

What would have to be true about this video, and how would it need to be adjusted, rearticulated, revised or edited, in view of how we might best apply Hermeneutics to the book of Revelation so that.........................a video like this might actually “COUNT” as evidence for and toward the Christian faith? ​

There's the question; now if you please, and you have the time to spare, please watch the video. Then feel free to give your opinion of it (like---I want my 15 minutes back!! OR, Man...I didn't know!, OR...that's spooky!....OR ….whatever!), and share your thoughts on how this video could or should be changed in it's reasoning and presentation to make it present as “evidence” for the truth of the book of Revelation and thereby for the Christian faith. ….I don't fully know myself: THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING!!!!

Thanks! (And remember, this is all about Christian Apologetics, with a nod to the role of Hermeneutics).

My quick subjective experience of the video (remembered from yesterday) --
While I don't normally watch any videos people post about topics like this, ever (I'd prefer to read for one thing, but also have already seen too many kooky videos for a few minutes)...I took the plunge since it's from you. At first I thought "uh oh" cause the narrator is talking in such a deep voice, but then it started to be clear he wasn't a conspiracy theorist, and therefore I could listen, and then it got interesting, and fortunately didn't jump into obvious error either.

What would have to be true about this video, and how would it need to be adjusted, rearticulated, revised or edited, in view of how we might best apply Hermeneutics to the book of Revelation so that.........................a video like this might actually “COUNT” as evidence for and toward the Christian faith?

Well, to a non believer or a seeker, this usually wouldn't, for most, be where they would ever look to try to discover more. Simply because the real question for most has to be Who was Christ really, and what did He really mean, and...wow, He really said that, about various things. And then for the truly seeking, His words start to hit them, His words in the 4 gospels, and that's the path to faith. (so, for the great majority a path to faith would never meander into the Book of Revelation) It would instead though possibly be a path that some much smaller fraction might happen through, possibly, if they...realized how increasingly lost and fragmented and pointless and souless modern culture is getting to be and then instead of seeking Christ were seeking a more intellectual analysis of that empty materialism leading nowhere good -- maybe some portion of this smaller group might possibly want to hear a verse or 2 from Revelation in addition to the more direct and clear and key things Christ directly said in the gospel accounts. In any scenario, most all would need instead to have first, primarily, centrally, what Christ said in the gospels, such as in the sermon on the mount and such, as the main, first, central thing, so that something from Revelation (to that lost seeker) is very secondary, and not usually part of their path, but for a few might help. Only a few, is my thought. But!...for those already believing on the other hand, then you can definitely bring in Revelation at some point for many more, as an aid they could need, if they didn't already totally absorb and begin to really follow already the clear message about materialism in the 4 gospels. For plenty or even most of us, at some point as believers we do very much need to realize how crucial, how Life or Death are the choices that will come in those times, and how we may be already in the beginning stages. Even before then Revelation is already meaningful though.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My quick subjective experience of the video (remembered from yesterday) --
While I don't normally watch any videos people post about topics like this, ever (I'd prefer to read for one thing, but also have already seen too many kooky videos for a few minutes)...I took the plunge since it's from you. At first I thought "uh oh" cause the narrator is talking in such a deep voice, but then it started to be clear he wasn't a conspiracy theorist, and therefore I could listen, and then it got interesting, and fortunately didn't jump into obvious error either.


Well, to a non believer or a seeker, this usually wouldn't, for most, be where they would ever look to try to discover more. Simply because the real question for most has to be Who was Christ really, and what did He really mean, and...wow, He really said that, about various things. And then for the truly seeking, His words start to hit them, His words in the 4 gospels, and that's the path to faith. (so, for the great majority a path to faith would never meander into the Book of Revelation) It would instead though possibly be a path that some much smaller fraction might happen through, possibly, if they...realized how increasingly lost and fragmented and pointless and souless modern culture is getting to be and then instead of seeking Christ were seeking a more intellectual analysis of that empty materialism leading nowhere good -- maybe some portion of this smaller group might possibly want to hear a verse or 2 from Revelation in addition to the more direct and clear and key things Christ directly said in the gospel accounts. In any scenario, most all would need instead to have first, primarily, centrally, what Christ said in the gospels, such as in the sermon on the mount and such, as the main, first, central thing, so that something from Revelation (to that lost seeker) is very secondary, and not usually part of their path, but for a few might help. Only a few, is my thought. But!...for those already believing on the other hand, then you can definitely bring in Revelation at some point for many more, as an aid they could need, if they didn't already totally absorb and begin to really follow already the clear message about materialism in the 4 gospels.

Good points, all, bro! I guess I have to admit that I'm of the few for whom the book of Revelation has always had a high impact in my overall understanding of Christ and thereby the way in which I see both Him and the enemy. When I first became a Christian, I read the enter New Testament within the space of 1 month, so my first impression in coming to Jesus was to take the whole of the writings together rather than resting on some one or two or three 'favorite' spots in the Gospels.

I see what you're saying. I think we have more to discuss on this later....

 

[Halbhh]

Good points, all, bro! I guess I have to admit that I'm of the few for whom the book of Revelation has always had a high impact in my overall understanding of Christ and thereby the way in which I see both Him and the enemy. When I first became a Christian, I read the enter New Testament within the space of 1 month, so my first impression in coming to Jesus was to take the whole of the writings together rather than resting on some one or two or three 'favorite' spots in the Gospels.

I see what you're saying. I think we have more to discuss on this later....

Revelation does make quite an impression! I've no doubt that for many it will be important early, once they are believing. And also that soon enough, it has key things all need. There are the 7 church messages, which are very needed, but not only those. There is something worth conveying here about Who we are really following in our seemingly ordinary life choices, day to day living, if things talked about begin to start happening (as it does seem is possibly on the horizon, is one guess I have at times). Even for the lost seeking something which they don't yet know what it is, don't yet realize Who they are ultimately seeking, a time could come when the essential meaning of these things in Revelation could be a key thing to understand to help them, if they have a vague sense that some force is trying to pull them downward, and they want some other better thing!

 

[Halbhh]

In Gnosticism, Wisdom was seen as the great deity that had fallen after all. Further, the modern Church of Satan, and perhaps the original Baphomet of mediaeval times, have been connected to Wisdom on Gematria grounds too. What better than a Solomonic conception here then, of the depths human wisdom unaided by God can plumb. Revelation, and the above Insight, are about what is revealed from without; while the Wisdom here perhaps can be construed as Self-Worship of your own reason.

That was definitely interesting, but I remembered that Solomon was instructed by the Lord to ask for 1 great gift, any(!), and choose to ask for wisdom. Not just intellectual ability, but rather wisdom from God, thus we can surmise it was the real wisdom.

We learn over the course of Solomon's experience that even the real (true) wisdom does not save against every danger. In fact, Solomon took so many wives, and tried to accommodate them, or was influenced by them, to finally stray in the most meaningful way of all, into idolatry. Real, true wisdom was not enough to prevent that fall. Because understanding what is right isn't what makes us sure to do what is right. Anyway, from the text, Solomon's wisdom was not the mere wisdom of men. Even though of course the true wisdom does indeed overlap with the mere wisdom of men.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That was definitely interesting, but I remembered that Solomon was instructed by the Lord to ask for 1 great gift, any(!), and choose to ask for wisdom. Not just intellectual ability, but rather wisdom from God, thus we can surmise it was the real wisdom.

We learn over the course of Solomon's experience that even the real (true) wisdom does not save against every danger. In fact, Solomon took so many wives, and tried to accommodate them, or was influenced by them, to finally stray in the most meaningful way of all, into idolatry. Real, true wisdom was not enough to prevent that fall. Because understanding what is right isn't what makes us sure to do what is right. Anyway, from the text, Solomon's wisdom was not the mere wisdom of men. Even though of course the true wisdom does indeed overlap with the mere wisdom of men.

A very, very important thing to also realize in Solomon's overall activities and in his collection of wives is that they were ALL FOREIGN, which by having made this ongoing, cottage industry collection of wives, Solomon broke the law of God each and every time he married an additional wife, which then led to further spiritual problems.....................

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My quick subjective experience of the video (remembered from yesterday) --
While I don't normally watch any videos people post about topics like this, ever (I'd prefer to read for one thing, but also have already seen too many kooky videos for a few minutes)...I took the plunge since it's from you. At first I thought "uh oh" cause the narrator is talking in such a deep voice, but then it started to be clear he wasn't a conspiracy theorist, and therefore I could listen, and then it got interesting, and fortunately didn't jump into obvious error either.


Well, to a non believer or a seeker, this usually wouldn't, for most, be where they would ever look to try to discover more. Simply because the real question for most has to be Who was Christ really, and what did He really mean, and...wow, He really said that, about various things. And then for the truly seeking, His words start to hit them, His words in the 4 gospels, and that's the path to faith. (so, for the great majority a path to faith would never meander into the Book of Revelation) It would instead though possibly be a path that some much smaller fraction might happen through, possibly, if they...realized how increasingly lost and fragmented and pointless and souless modern culture is getting to be and then instead of seeking Christ were seeking a more intellectual analysis of that empty materialism leading nowhere good -- maybe some portion of this smaller group might possibly want to hear a verse or 2 from Revelation in addition to the more direct and clear and key things Christ directly said in the gospel accounts.

I was just thinking about your comments here and listing way back 30 years to when I first encountered the New Testament, and while I'm sure that Revelation doesn't necessarily or consistently score high on too many folk's must read list, I will say that when I read the first chapter and the third verse, I my first impression was that it was supposed to be taken as something significant:

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
​

One of the first things I noticed, besides the fact that it states "the time is near," was that it sounded kind of like what Jesus said to both Peter and Thomas, and to those who were with Him when He gave the Sermon on the Mount, about 'being blessed.' So, I took it to mean that it was something significant on the whole whether I could decipher or understand all of its allusions, O.T. echos, and picturesque metaphors (which at that time I was clueless of but fascinated by). Of course, my overall understanding of its contents has changed over time, like it might for anyone, but rather than growing dimmer and less relevant, it has grown greater in importance in the place it keeps in my mind as a bulwark in my own faith, especially now.

In any scenario, most all would need instead to have first, primarily, centrally, what Christ said in the gospels, such as in the sermon on the mount and such, as the main, first, central thing, so that something from Revelation (to that lost seeker) is very secondary, and not usually part of their path, but for a few might help. Only a few, is my thought. But!...for those already believing on the other hand, then you can definitely bring in Revelation at some point for many more, as an aid they could need, if they didn't already totally absorb and begin to really follow already the clear message about materialism in the 4 gospels. For plenty or even most of us, at some point as believers we do very much need to realize how crucial, how Life or Death are the choices that will come in those times, and how we may be already in the beginning stages. Even before then Revelation is already meaningful though.

Yes, it is, or at least I think it is, despite what some mediating critics will try to say otherwise about its seeming original purpose or its level of relevance.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Revelation does make quite an impression! I've no doubt that for many it will be important early, once they are believing. And also that soon enough, it has key things all need. There are the 7 church messages, which are very needed, but not only those. There is something worth conveying here about Who we are really following in our seemingly ordinary life choices, day to day living, if things talked about begin to start happening (as it does seem is possibly on the horizon, is one guess I have at times). Even for the lost seeking something which they don't yet know what it is, don't yet realize Who they are ultimately seeking, a time could come when the essential meaning of these things in Revelation could be a key thing to understand to help them, if they have a vague sense that some force is trying to pull them downward, and they want some other better thing!

In addition to the article I provided above in post #25, here's another few articles you can peruse if you're interested in reading some of the additional sources I've used in the process of my ongoing hermeneutical exploration of 'the number':

Michael, M. G. "For it is the number of a man." (2000).

Michael, M. G. "Observations on 666 in the Old Testament." (1999).

Michael, Michael George. "666 or 616 (Rev. 13, 18)." (2000).

Michael, M. G. "Demystifying the number of the beast in the book of revelation: Examples of ancient cryptology and the interpretation of the “666” conundrum." In 2010 IEEE International Symposium on Technology and Society, pp. 23-41. IEEE, 2010.

 

[Halbhh]

I was just thinking about your comments here and listing way back 30 years to when I first encountered the New Testament, and while I'm sure that Revelation doesn't necessarily or consistently score high on too many folk's must read list, I will say that when I read the first chapter and the third verse, I my first impression was that it was supposed to be taken as something significant:

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
​

One of the first things I noticed, besides the fact that it states "the time is near," was that it sounded kind of like what Jesus said to both Peter and Thomas, and to those who were with Him when He gave the Sermon on the Mount, about 'being blessed.' So, I took it to mean that it was something significant on the whole whether I could decipher or understand all of its allusions, O.T. echos, and picturesque metaphors (which at that time I was clueless of but fascinated by). Of course, my overall understanding of its contents has changed over time, like it might for anyone, but rather than growing dimmer and less relevant, it has grown greater in importance in the place it keeps in my mind as a bulwark in my own faith, especially now.

Yes, it is, or at least I think it is, despite what some mediating critics will try to say otherwise about its seeming original purpose or its level of relevance.

It's so rich. I was just reading chapter 1 and then 2. It's so...wonderful. Each powerful message to each church tells us something so important, and then another thing, and then another.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's so rich. I was just reading chapter 1 and then 2. It's so...wonderful. Each powerful message to each church tells us something so important, and then another thing, and then another.

Oh, I hear ya! Each message given to each of the Seven Churches can be a multi-hour study in and of itself. One instance where this kind of study is provided by T. Scott Daniels (2009) in his book, "Seven Deadly Spirits." In this book, Daniels describes the spiritual problems that can infest the various social and spiritual permutations of 'church life,' particularly as seen in the 7 addresses by the Lord to the 7 Churches.

And in this book, again, I come across an author who thinks there is some measure of connection even between the figure of Solomon and the 'number of the Beast,' reflecting the nature of the problems we all face in attempting to find Christ, be in Christ, and stay in Christ, as Overcomers over the Beast(s) and his protracted and pungent influences. (pp. 69-71)

I guess T.S. Daniel's title for his book is a play upon the motif of the "Seven Deadly Sins." Appropriate, really.

Reference
Daniels, T. Scott (2009). Seven deadly spirits: The message of Revelation's letters for today's church. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have always found that explanation far less clear cut than people present it. It requires translating into Aramaic and applying gematria in that language, of titles not generally used therein. Usually they just used Caesar as a title itself, as it eventually became. As far as I know, there is only a single inscription in Aramaic with the required form. When they adopt the 666 vs 616 variants to support it, it becomes even sillier, as they then change the form it needs to take in Aramaic to get the new gematria. I think this is as legitimate as all these people working out how Obama or Reagan or Gorbachev or whoever, somehow amounts to 666: "If I take the title President Reagan and translate it into Latin, then add up all the values of the spaces in the Latin Alphabet, I get 666". You can see very much the same implausibility followed by exception followed by assumption, at play here; people just don't realise it, because it is conceived of long ago and in an alien time.

On the issue of whether the 'originally' expressed number could have been 616 instead of 666 is explored to a moderate extent by M.G. Michael in an article up in post #36. You may find it to be of an additional interest to add to what you already have on this issue, Quid.

 

[Halbhh]

Oh, I hear ya! Each message given to each of the Seven Churches can be a multi-hour study in and of itself. One instance where this kind of study is provided by T. Scott Daniels (2009) in his book, "Seven Deadly Spirits." In this book, Daniels describes the spiritual problems that can infest the various social and spiritual permutations of 'church life,' particularly as seen in the 7 addresses by the Lord to the 7 Churches.

And in this book, again, I come across an author who thinks there is some measure of connection even between the figure of Solomon and the 'number of the Beast,' reflecting the nature of the problems we all face in attempting to find Christ, be in Christ, and stay in Christ, as Overcomers over the Beast(s) and his protracted and pungent influences. (pp. 69-71)

I guess T.S. Daniel's title for his book is a play upon the motif of the "Seven Deadly Sins." Appropriate, really.

Reference
Daniels, T. Scott (2009). Seven deadly spirits: The message of Revelation's letters for today's church. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

Yes, I could imagine going into depth on the main lessons of the messages to the churches. Last night I was really seeing, totally seeing and hearing many things in such a helpful way. Just one of many, for instance, the repeated message about 'conquering'. He has overcome the world! We are to overcome, conquer, the worldly things that pull at us. It's not only an extra bonus, as if a good plus to add on, we can see so very clearly here in this 2nd chapter. It's a central, key, primary thing. I can't remember if I had read last in the NIV, but the ESV was very good for this -- Revelation 2 ESV