666: Hermeneutics and Christian Apologetics

[2PhiloVoid]

We've all encountered some book, movie, album cover or song, or the sensationalist church sermon that has exclaimed some kind of danger, evil or premonition regarding a number that is charged with religious dread and at times, superstition. You know that number, don't you?

Below is a video, a 17 minute + video, and like many attempts before it, it attempts to define and explain (away?) the meaning of the number, 666. Of course, I fully realize that this number as a topic has been overtreated and often reduced to, and presented, in what is otherwise stereotypically framed conspiracy theory, particularly as asserted “for days yet to come in the future.” This video will be little different than those. Yet, still, it is a little different, even if it is presented with what I think is a “conspiracy” pastiche. (And you can rest comforted to know that I didn't produce it.)

However, here's the upshot: it might surprise some to find out that this video presents this topic in a way, though not exactly, which comports with the way I “see” things and the way in which I perceive there is evidence of biblical truth in the World at Large, however diabolical in nature it may be. (Yikes!)

So, here's my quandery. I know that the number 666 and its meaning and application are seemingly up for grabs in various ways, or at least its either claimed to be so or it has seemingly proven to be so due to many mistakes Christans have made in the past in attempting to apply it or decipher it. So here's my question for anyone and everyone, both Christian and Skeptic alike:

What would have to be true about this video, and how would it need to be adjusted, rearticulated, revised or edited, in view of how we might best apply Hermeneutics to the book of Revelation so that.........................a video like this might actually “COUNT” as evidence for and toward the Christian faith? ​

There's the question; now if you please, and you have the time to spare, please watch the video. Then feel free to give your opinion of it (like---I want my 15 minutes back!! OR, Man...I didn't know!, OR...that's spooky!....OR ….whatever!), and share your thoughts on how this video could or should be changed in it's reasoning and presentation to make it present as “evidence” for the truth of the book of Revelation and thereby for the Christian faith. ….I don't fully know myself: THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING!!!!

Thanks! (And remember, this is all about Christian Apologetics, with a nod to the role of Hermeneutics).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

.I don't fully know myself: THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING!!!!

Deuteronomy 6
7And you shall teach them diligently to your children and speak of them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as reminders on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

The Mark is a spiritual mark, an allegory for doing the opposite of the above. The above was one of the passages where the Jews developed the tradition of the Phylactery. It means to embrace God's word in thought, word and deed.


There are likewise are evil equivalents like this. Jihadist wear arm bands with the Shahada profession of Faith on their foreheads and around their arms. You have nazis, communists etc. that have their elaborate uniforms, where by embracing the uniform means you embrace an ideology that is antithetical to Christianity. Someday there may indeed be some kind of computerized system that literally bars people from buying or selling, but it is already possible to have the mark of the Beast simply by requiring people to make loyalty oaths, wear uniforms to various kinds of totalitarian political parties and other groups that are hostile to Christian beliefs. That is essentially denying the Faith for folks that want to go along to get by.


The word martyr in Greek originally comes from "being a witness". (The Martyrs were martyred because their profession of Faith brought them in direct conflict with the Romans with their emperor cults, gladiatorial games etc.) Anyway, you cannot sever two masters (Mathew 6:24) . If you are going along with a group like that you are not being a witness for Christ, you as a Christian will be making a very conscious decision to deny him.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Deuteronomy 6
7And you shall teach them diligently to your children and speak of them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as reminders on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

The Mark is a spiritual mark, an allegory for doing the opposite of the above. The above was one of the passages where the Jews developed the tradition of the Phylactery. It means to embrace God's word in thought, word and deed.

Oh yes! These are very important implications that are inferred in all of this, even if I'm sure it's not always easy to show these connections in definitive, direct and tidy hermeneutical ways that people prefer today. So, maybe the guy in the OP video could have added something about these things to help draw the themes and lesson together more, do you think?

There are likewise are evil equivalents like this. Jihadist wear arm bands with the Shahada profession of Faith on their foreheads and around their arms. You have nazis, communists etc. that have their elaborate uniforms, where by embracing the uniform you embrace an idealogy that is antithetical to Christianity. Someday there may indeed be some kind of computerized system that literally bars people from buying or selling, but it is already possible to have the mark of the Beast simply by requiring people to make loyalty oaths, wear uniforms to various kinds of totalitarian political parties and other groups that are hostile to Christian beliefs. That is essentially denying the Faith for folks that want to go along with it to get by.

Wow, yeah! Great examples. All those various arm bands that some groups resort to using to identify "who's in and who's out!"

Like you, there could be something to the computer 'stuff' in some way in the future. In some way, personally, I think it's already here, but not as much 'here' as it's going to become. But, I refrain from prognosticating on things to come. I'd rather focus on the motifs in the video that may have, excuse the pun, "purchase" for the past that we may recognize and for our Here and Now.

And yes, you're right. One of the motifs in the video is that those who end up subscribing to all that 666 is about won't be on a very good standing later on before the gaze of God. Do you have any ideas about how the video might be changed or bettered in this regard to express this point?

 

[RaymondG]

I was entertained by the intellectual knowledge on display for most of the video. I was surprised to find that it all boiled down to the poverty Gospel.....and was less impressed by the use of the "blessed are the poor in spirit" verse, to build up the doctrine of being materially poor.

I believe the 666 sign, is spiritual.....It would seem that if the mark of the beast relates to having a lot of riches....then the mark of God, which is also said to be placed on the forehead and hand, i guess, would relate to having little riches? Yet in both cases, it would require one to dwell on the riches they have, give up or dont have.....when the bible states to be content.

The narrator is well spoken and easy to listen to......yet displays how the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the spirit.

 

[Sanoy]

Revelation is so heavily laden with biblical and ancient near eastern themes that any exegesis should go backwards before it goes forwards. This guy seems to get that. The typical approach is to see if something from our bibles matches the modern world, but first we must figure out what we are dealing with textually. ...A few good examples of this, Leviathan, Locusts, Even the concept of a name numeral is ancient as we discover through Sargon II "Palaces of ivory, mulberry, cedar, cypress, juniper, and pistachio-wood I built at their lofty command for my royal dwelling place. A bit-hillani, a copy of a Hittite (Syrian) palace, I erected in front of their doors. Beams of cedar and cypress I laid over them for roofs at 16,283 cubits, the numeral of my name. I made the circuit (lit., measure) of its wall, establishing the foundation platform upon the bedrock of the high mountain."

 

[cloudyday2]

That is interesting that 666 occurs in reference to the wealth of Solomon. The Prosperity Gospel does seem to be the antithesis of early Christianity and the sayings of Jesus.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I was entertained by the intellectual knowledge on display for most of the video. I was surprised to find that it all boiled down to the poverty Gospel.....and was less impressed by the use of the "blessed are the poor in spirit" verse, to build up the doctrine of being materially poor.

Ok. Yeah. I'm not sure I exactly am willing to bite on what could be seen as the "poverty gospel," so if this is what was being promoted in the OP video, that part of it is something which could be revised in a more balanced way. But I do like the general hermeneutical direction of this guy's message.

I believe the 666 sign, is spiritual.....It would seem that if the mark of the beast relates to having a lot of riches....then the mark of God, which is also said to be placed on the forehead and hand, i guess, would relate to having little riches? Yet in both cases, it would require one to dwell on the riches they have, give up or dont have.....when the bible states to be content.

I think we're in agreement that we both tend to see 666 as a spiritual symbol in its prophetic essence, particularly as it could be manifested as a metaphor for some other social reality, maybe 'discontent' with Christ or something. Although I won't assert that I "know for sure," I'm under the impression that it is supposed to point subtlety to more than just an inordinate taste for riches; more like a taste for the general kind of spiritually failed lifestyle that Solomon led during the prime of his life, until perhaps he got older and woke up one day and realized, "I screwed up, Big Time!"

The narrator is well spoken and easy to listen to......yet displays how the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the spirit.

So, are you saying that the narrator shows us how the carnal mind doesn't understand the things of the spirit, or are you saying the narrator doesn't understand the things of the spirit. Either way, I'm listening. You're free to critique this video. Or not, if you feel you've said what you wanted to say.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Revelation is so heavily laden with biblical and ancient near eastern themes that any exegesis should go backwards before it goes forwards. This guy seems to get that.

Yes, I agree with you. Revelation seems to express what some bible scholars call poetic echoes of prophetic motifs from the O.T. prophetic literature, and the narrator seems to use some of this in his hermeneutic method.

The typical approach is to see if something from our bibles matches the modern world, but first we must figure out what we are dealing with textually. ...A few good examples of this, Leviathan, Locusts, Even the concept of a name numeral is ancient as we discover through Sargon II "Palaces of ivory, mulberry, cedar, cypress, juniper, and pistachio-wood I built at their lofty command for my royal dwelling place. A bit-hillani, a copy of a Hittite (Syrian) palace, I erected in front of their doors. Beams of cedar and cypress I laid over them for roofs at 16,283 cubits, the numeral of my name. I made the circuit (lit., measure) of its wall, establishing the foundation platform upon the bedrock of the high mountain."

Interesting. I didn't know that gematria like symbols went that far back ... I'll have to remember this bit for future reference. Thank you!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That is interesting that 666 occurs in reference to the wealth of Solomon. The Prosperity Gospel does seem to be the antithesis of early Christianity and the sayings of Jesus.

Oh yes, I think many folks now realize that the Prosperity Gospel has gone too far over the past several decades. And although I am sometimes skeptical of the sincerity of some of these Prosperity preachers, it was interesting to see a recent admission by Benny Hinn that he had gone too far and had to "correct" some of this own theology.

On a larger scale, however, I think that people in our culture can easily become focused on building Capital just for the sake of having it and all that it can enable one to do, and we can make this whole economic process into a kind of idolized cultural value system. So, whether we're Christians or not, we all need to be careful of this one aspect of the meaning in this number.

If you have any other ideas or evaluations about the content of the OP video, feel free to offer them, Cloudy.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

... I have a hard time believing that hardly anyone has an opinion on this topic.

 

[FireDragon76]

... I have a hard time believing that hardly anyone has an opinion on this topic.

My opinion of Revelation is not all that favorable.

I think trying to find esoteric meanings to divine the future in the book is foolish, and I am surprised someone so widely read would take this approach.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My opinion of Revelation is not all that favorable.

I think trying to find esoteric meanings to divine the future in the book is foolish, and I am surprised someone so widely read would take this approach.

Alright. You don't like the book of Revelation, so due to this state of evaluation, you're forgoing offering critique or comment on the production of the video?

How do you know what I've read, so widely, FD? You don't. And neither do I know all the set of books (or other sources and media) which you've read.

Also think about this: in the same way that you've presented me with scholar Dale Martin above, thinking that I may not be familiar with him or with his teaching, it may ALSO be that my "wide reading" includes more than just one scholar that you've ever read and who plays, or has played, into my overall thinking.

I mean, c'mon, FD. It's not like I'd present this video if I didn't already have other, more serious, more robust sources by which I've made at least a few conclusions, however incomplete they may still be. (And this last bit I say in affirmation of the idea that, if Revelation is true, I don't really think it was meant to be ultra clear to everyone, but rather, as Paul would say, to give us a glimpse of God's judgments on the World "through a glass darkly." But this ISN'T to say that we all should see absolutely nothing.)

[By the way, it may sound like I'm being forthright, but I do very much appreciate your having taken a moment and providing the comments that you have. I know that Revelation is one of those books that we all have a tough time coming to grips with ... and despite what some folks around here may think, I'm not that different in this regard than most people---just perhaps more widely read. )

But back to the video. It could be better ...

 

[Moral Orel]

My opinion of Revelation is not all that favorable.

I think trying to find esoteric meanings to divine the future in the book is foolish, and I am surprised someone so widely read would take this approach.

Did you watch the video? I don't think it had much at all to do with predicting the end of the world. It was all about how awful "Prosperity Gospel" is, really.

 

[Moral Orel]

... I have a hard time believing that hardly anyone has an opinion on this topic.

It's refreshing to see a Christian address some sin that doesn't have anything to do with sex for once, so Kudos for that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's refreshing to see a Christian address some sin that doesn't have anything to do with sex for once, so Kudos for that.

Who said that sex wasn't a part of this? Remember, my direction in this thread is to question the video in my OP? ... if it was me making this video, I'd add the 'sexy stuff' that this author has obviously, grossly even, left out regarding Solomon, among other things.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

... yep, this is what I thought I'd hear, which goes to show, me, some further truth to the matter.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The mark of the beast also implies currency, in that the term means a 'stamp'. So I have heard it argued the implication is that coins in the palm of the hand stamped the image of the beast, as it were. Further, marks to differentiate various trading guilds or tattooing of slaves, was fairly widespread. Whatever else it may mean, the Number and Mark of the Beast seem intimately connected to Economic factors in some way.

Perhaps a continuation of narrative of the devil showing Christ the kingdoms of the world, or the rich young man asking to get into heaven, or Simon Magus trying to buy the gifts of the Spirit. It is focussing on the Self, symbolised by the forehead or focussing on acquisition by the hand; rather than giving of yourself to your neighbour; as Christ did.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The mark of the beast also implies currency, in that the term means a 'stamp'. So I have heard it argued the implication is that coins in the palm of the hand stamped the image of the beast, as it were. Further, marks to differentiate various trading guilds or tattooing of slaves, was fairly widespread. Whatever else it may mean, the Number and Mark of the Beast seem intimately connected to Economic factors in some way.

Perhaps a continuation of narrative of the devil showing Christ the kingdoms of the world, or the rich young man asking to get into heaven, or Simon Magus trying to buy the gifts of the Spirit. It is focussing on the Self, symbolised by the forehead or focussing on acquisition by the hand; rather than giving of yourself to your neighbour; as Christ did.

That's an excellent start, Quid! [Applause!] So.......keep going. What other patterns do you see there, perhaps some additional ones that are evident but which are not mentioned in the OP video? Again, think about Solomon here rather than Nero; or at least let's not just assume with the current consensus that Nero is definitely implied by that dreaded number. If we do, I think we lose much of the fuller implication of what the book of Revelation may be indicating to us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Did you watch the video? I don't think it had much at all to do with predicting the end of the world. It was all about how awful "Prosperity Gospel" is, really.

Somehow, I missed this post of yours, Nick. Shame on me! I just happened to notice it and, like Quid, I thought you were making a very good start. Please keep sharing the hermeneutical insights with us that come to your mind. [And for once, you might want to feel comforted by the fact that my request of this from you is by no means done as sarcasm.]

I really do think you're putting your finger in the direction of "The Problem" expressed in the book of Revelation. The only thing is, it's probably a bit bigger than just what Prosperity Preachers alone promulgate, and a bit bigger than what the video has attempted to present ... at least, that's what I'm thinking. I mean, with the form of hermeneutics that the author in the OP video was using, I would have thought he'd have seen a [excuse the phrase]... a "hell" of a lot more!

But who knows for sure? I don't. And that is why I'm asking everyone else to help me out with the possible meaning of this number--'cuz I can't be sure. I'm pondering: Is this particular numbers game bit in Revelation really and simply about some revived "Nero" as some folks have proffered of late? In my mind, he never really died.........and what we have to contend with isn't just about him if evaluated from other hermeneutical angles.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

That's an excellent start, Quid! [Applause!] So.......keep going. What other patterns do you see there, perhaps some additional ones that are evident but which are not mentioned in the OP video? Again, think about Solomon here rather than Nero; or at least let's not just assume with the current consensus that Nero is definitely implied by that dreaded number. If we do, I think we lose much of the fuller implication of what the book of Revelation may be indicating to us.

I don't think I am following what you are trying to imply. Are you stressing the name Revelation and the presumed Solomonic connection to think it indicates the Wisdom of man versus that of God? I mean, I can see how you can take Revelation 13:18 to refer to Wisdom - as the previous verses talked about the beast, then it declares Here is Wisdom, before speaking about 'insight' into the meaning of the number. Do you take this as Wisdom personified, and therefore perhaps being the referent itself?

In Gnosticism, Wisdom was seen as the great deity that had fallen after all. Further, the modern Church of Satan, and perhaps the original Baphomet of mediaeval times, have been connected to Wisdom on Gematria grounds too. What better than a Solomonic conception here then, of the depths human wisdom unaided by God can plumb. Revelation, and the above Insight, are about what is revealed from without; while the Wisdom here perhaps can be construed as Self-Worship of your own reason.

After all, the Gospel was foolishness to the Greeks - so was such Wisdom then the anti-gospel, the Antichrist that destroys by doubt? I can perhaps see how you could see some post-Christian intellectual abstraction as the Beast, certainly, especially if Materialist in nature.

Or am I way off base of your meaning?