616 or 666: Which is the devil's number?

[RMDY]

I'm in a discussion with a guy who pulled a bunch of 'contradictions' probably from some athiest website and it included the mark of the beast as being 616 instead of 666. He's trying to discredit me preaching Jesus and I need help and understanding about this whole matter. Please help me.

 

[RMDY]

Well, I'm locked in a spiritual battle with him with many people watching on the sidelines and some people supporting him, and he dropped this bomb on me, which if I can't defend against, would silence me and discredit Christ amongst many many people. So please, I ask for your prayers and for helping in dealing with this...


This is what he said to me:

"Btw, this is what you listen to. Contradictions of the bible

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)

(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1 )

==================

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9 )

(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)

==================

How many fighting men were found in Judah?

(a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9 )

(b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5 )


==================

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13 )

(b) Three (I Chronicles 21:12 )

===================

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)

(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2 )

===================

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8 )

(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9 )

====================

How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

(a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8 )

(b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9 )

====================

The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

(a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8 )

(b) Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)


====================

When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

(a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)

(b) Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)

======================

How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

(a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)

(b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)


=====================

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?

(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)

(b) Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)

===================

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?

(a) Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)

(b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)

====================

In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?

(a) Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)

(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)

====================

How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?

(a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)

(b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)

=====================

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?

(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)

(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)

====================

Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?

(a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)

(b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)


====================

How many were the children of Zattu?

(a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)

(b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)


====================

Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?

(a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)

(b) No (Joshua 15:63)

====================

Jesus descended from which son of David?

(a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6)

(b) Nathan(Luke3:31)

====================

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?

(a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)

(b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)

=====================

When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus’ daughter already dead?

(a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, “My daughter has just died.”

(b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death.”

=====================

Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?

(a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)

(b) No (Luke 9:9)

=====================

According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?

(a) “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)

(b) “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)

=====================

Did Judas kiss Jesus?

(a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)

(b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)

=====================

Did Jesus bear his own cross?

(a) Yes (John 19:17)

(b) No (Matthew 27:31-32)

=====================

(a) Yes(Matthew27:50-5 1;MarklS:37-38)

(b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)

=====================

Did Jesus say anything secretly?

(a) No. “I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20)

(b) Yes. “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything” (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)

=====================

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?

(a) On the cross (Mark 15:23)

(b) In Pilate’s court (John 19:14)

====================

What was the exact wording on the cross?

(a) “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (Matthew 27:37)

(b) “The King of the Jews” (Mark 15:26)

© “This is the King of the Jews” (Luke 23:38)

(d) “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (John 19:19)

====================

Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?

(a) Yes (Matthew 14:5)

(b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)

====================

Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?

(a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)

(b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke’s gospel (Luke 6:12-16)

==================

(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)

(b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)

===================

(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)

(b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)

===================

Would you like me to keep going? I have plenty more where that came from."

 

[cyberlizard]

I'm in a discussion with a guy who pulled a bunch of 'contradictions' probably from some athiest website and it included the mark of the beast as being 616 instead of 666. He's trying to discredit me preaching Jesus and I need help and understanding about this whole matter. Please help me.

you'll find your debating partner to be quite accurate... all you are up against is textual variants within manuscripts.

Good advice - be well informed. Do not just choose one bible. Always, always, always read the footnotes AND get a decent book on the construction on the 'new testament' canon.


Steve

p.s. the new testament has more than enough textual variants that, if they were small holes would sink an aircraft carrier.

 

[Heber]

Learn to read and translate Hebrew and Greek and some of these will disappear anyway! Read a number of the variants as minor differences in incidents due to the accounts being witnessed / passed on or with a rounding up or rounding down of numbers.

Note that the variants 'prove' the truth of the Bible texts - if someone set out to write a fictitious story they would have ironed out these variants and ensured that it all fitted together absolutely perfectly; the fact that you see several 'sides' to the same accounts indicates its authenticity! No author would write such a grand story and leave the warts and all in the story line, would they?

So, far from being something that destroys the Bible and our faith, it actually has the very reverse effect. When the above is observed and put into action you will see that there are very few things that are direct contradictions.

 

[Te'omaAbadEl]

Sometimes it is best to keep silent when people attack you like that. Be ready to give an account, but also be as wise as a serpent. If someone is genuinely seeking answers then help them, but if someone is bent on making you look like a fool and trying to discredit the bible like that, then keep quiet. The person is on an agenda.

 

[tm2cruz]

I'm in a discussion with a guy who pulled a bunch of 'contradictions' probably from some athiest website and it included the mark of the beast as being 616 instead of 666. He's trying to discredit me preaching Jesus and I need help and understanding about this whole matter. Please help me.

Hi there,

I've just heared a preaching about the book of Revelation and that number is symbolic and based in Hebrew letters and in their culture on that Century. I haven't studied all about it but it sounds true.

Anyway, if you want to know any scientific or using science to prove the validity of the Bible, post your request or question in our group's forum (Word of Faith forum) and I'll post five videos or audios of interview of a Scientist who became a Christian. It strengthen my faith.

 

[Steve Petersen]

616 or 666?

Differences between various Greek texts of the NT.

Now, which are inspired and infallible?

This could be a mind expanding moment. Don't let it slip away.

 

[tm2cruz]

616 or 666?

Differences between various Greek texts of the NT.

Now, which are inspired and infallible?

This could be a mind expanding moment. Don't let it slip away.

I heard the teaching about this one and I think John was trying to give the reader, especially in their time, a hint. I'm not into book of Revelation so even though I heard the teaching, I can't explain it... Hopefully someone who understands this one will respond

 

[tm2cruz]

Well, I'm locked in a spiritual battle with him with many people watching on the sidelines and some people supporting him, and he dropped this bomb on me, which if I can't defend against, would silence me and discredit Christ amongst many many people. So please, I ask for your prayers and for helping in dealing with this...
This is what he said to me:
"Btw, this is what you listen to. Contradictions of the bible
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1 )
==================
In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9 )
(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)
==================
How many fighting men were found in Judah?
(a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9 )
(b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5 )
==================
God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13 )
(b) Three (I Chronicles 21:12 )
===================
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2 )
===================
How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8 )
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9 )
====================
How long did he rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8 )
(b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9 )
====================
The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?
(a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8 )
(b) Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
====================
When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?
(a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
(b) Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
======================
How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?
(a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
(b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
=====================
When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)
(b) Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)
===================
How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
(b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)
====================
In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
(a) Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)
(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)
====================
How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?
(a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)
(b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
=====================
Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)
(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)
====================
Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?
(a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)
(b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)
====================
How many were the children of Zattu?
(a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)
(b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
====================
Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?
(a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)
(b) No (Joshua 15:63)
====================
Jesus descended from which son of David?
(a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
(b) Nathan(Luke3:31)
====================
How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?
(a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
(b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
=====================
When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus’ daughter already dead?
(a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, “My daughter has just died.”
(b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death.”
=====================
Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?
(a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)
(b) No (Luke 9:9)
=====================
According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?
(a) “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)
(b) “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)
=====================
Did Judas kiss Jesus?
(a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
(b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)
=====================
Did Jesus bear his own cross?
(a) Yes (John 19:17)
(b) No (Matthew 27:31-32)
=====================
(a) Yes(Matthew27:50-5 1;MarklS:37-38)
(b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)
=====================
Did Jesus say anything secretly?
(a) No. “I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20)
(b) Yes. “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything” (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)
=====================
Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?
(a) On the cross (Mark 15:23)
(b) In Pilate’s court (John 19:14)
====================
What was the exact wording on the cross?
(a) “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (Matthew 27:37)
(b) “The King of the Jews” (Mark 15:26)
© “This is the King of the Jews” (Luke 23:38)
(d) “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (John 19:19)
====================
Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?
(a) Yes (Matthew 14:5)
(b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)
====================
Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?
(a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)
(b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke’s gospel (Luke 6:12-16)
==================
(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)
(b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)
===================
(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)
(b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)
===================

Would you like me to keep going? I have plenty more where that came from."

Here's a link for you... Please, do not engage if you don't know the answer. Be humble. Pray to the Lord to send laborers to them who knows the answers.

Debate Topics: Apologetic

 

[Steve Petersen]

Here's a link for you... Please, do not engage if you don't know the answer. Be humble. Pray to the Lord to send laborers to them who knows the answers.

Debate Topics: Apologetic

It's fun to watch apologists tap dance.

But they shouldn't feel bad. The sages of Israel were perptually trying to get God off the hook.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

6+1+6= 13 1+3=4
The number for the earth.

 

[Codger]

I'm in a discussion with a guy who pulled a bunch of 'contradictions' probably from some athiest website and it included the mark of the beast as being 616 instead of 666. He's trying to discredit me preaching Jesus and I need help and understanding about this whole matter. Please help me.

The number of the beast is the numerical total of the name "Neron Caesar" which totals 666. Some copyists who understood who the text was talking about back then did not use the last "N" in Neron which is 50 hense the number in some manuscripts is rendered 616. Pretty simple.

 

[tm2cruz]

The number of the beast is the numerical total of the name "Neron Caesar" which totals 666. Some copyists who understood who the text was talking about back then did not use the last "N" in Neron which is 50 hense the number in some manuscripts is rendered 616. Pretty simple.

That's what I heard, can you make it detailed for us if that's ok? THanks

 

[Codger]

That's what I heard, can you make it detailed for us if that's ok? THanks

I'll have to look around for Fr. Patrick Sena's book on Revelation. I think that's where it came from originally.

Larry

 

[Codger]

Couldn't find Sena's book but I found this on the net.

"In Hebrew, each of the 22 letters of the alphabet has a numerical value. A code called gematria, developed in Jewish apocalyptic and mystical circles, draws connections between two otherwise unrelated words based on the total numerical value of the letters in each word. Nero's name or title in Hebrew looks like this: (NRON QSR), meaning Nero Caesar. Taking the value of the Hebrew letters, N=50, R=200, O=6, N=50, Q=100, S=60, R=200, one comes up with the sum of 666. To make this identification of the beast with Nero even more convincing, it should be noted that some Greek manuscripts of Revelation give the number 616 rather than 666 - probably due to an alternative spelling of Nero as NRO rather than NRON (666 minus the final N [=50] gives 616)."

 

[Codger]

But there is more. Nero is also included in the following passage as well...

Rev. 17:9-11 (NASB)
"Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [10] and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [11] "And the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

The first verse is easy and simple – Rome was built on seven hills – this is virtually undisputed. An indirect reference to the beast/emperor which was Rome. I use the late date for Revelation. Augustus is not included since he was the first emperor – also short term emperors are not mentioned. John is taking symbols out of history and the OT. Example: the list of the tribes is in error. He makes up his own list tht serves his purposes. A chart of the primary Kings from that historical period is...

1. Tiberius - fallen 1.

2. Caligula - fallen 2.

3. Claudius - fallen 3.

4. Nero - one who was, is not, and is to come for a little, who also was an eighth, but was of the seven, making Nero both one of the seven and the eighth.

5. Vespasian – fallen 4.

6.Titus - fallen 5.

7.Domitian - the one who is, Nero reincarnated, therefore an eighth – belonging to the seven, yet symbolically having Nero reincarnated in him making Domitian both a seventh and an eighth.

The historical information you must know to understand this chart is the fact that it was a very common belief among the Romans in that day that Nero was expected to be reincarnated. The Nero redivivus or resurrection myth was widely and continually perpetuated for a period of over twenty years.

Historian William Durant said that Domitian ..."began like Gabriel and ended like Lucifer." Domitian reigned from AD 81-96. Something happened to change Domitian's character in the year AD 86 after an attempted take over by Saturninus. Durant says that this was the turning point between his better and worse selves. He had always been coldly severe, but now he slipped into cruelty. He then filled the Capitol with statues of himself, announced the divinity of his father, brother, wife and sisters as well as himself. Set up a new order of priests to attend to the worship of these new deities and required officials to speak of him in their documents, as Dominus et Deus Noster – our Lord and God. This caused a general rebellion in the empire and was especially problematic to the Christians. It was in AD 93 that Domitian executed some Christians for refusing to offer sacrifice before his image. This was the beginning of the "incarnation" of Nero and the persecution of the Christians. Something that God foresaw and warned the early Christians about in the book of Revelation.

Rome had a practice of dealing with the leadership first which could mean that John was the first to be dealt with in Asia Minor possibly in 92 maybe as late as 93. By the way Asia Minor had the highest concentration of Christians in the first Century (Eerdmans History) The interpretation given here also ties the writing of the book to the time of Domitian and not the earlier date of Revelation – but this is an issue that I have not settled yet. The fear of Nero's murder of Christians gradually swept most of the Christians toward the Roman Province of Asia.


Rev. 13:18 (NASB)
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

1. It's something that you have to "Calculate" (add) and it was common in that day to use numbers to represent letters. It is not in our day in the 21st century.

2. It is the number of "A" man – singular according to translations.

3. The calculated (added) numbers of his name totals 666.

Fr. Patrick J. Sena says that the Hebrew totals for Nero Caesar add up to 666 – but it is spelled Neron in Hebrew and not in the Latin used by the Romans which only uses one "N". Remember the writer John thought in Hebrew and Aramaic and translated to Greek in his writing. Some ancient manuscripts use 616 because they did not include the final Hebrew N of Neron (50) in their translation.

So 666 indicates "Nero" who is now dead in the suggested time line. But the scripture says that the seventh now is, "Domitian" and the eighth is yet to come. It is saying that Domitian is on the throne, but his time of cruelty toward the Christians had not yet taken place and didn’t until 93 when he became “reincarnated” with the "spirit" of Nero. He then became the eighth. The end of Rev 17:11 says... and he goes to destruction. This is a Prophesy of the demise of Domitian in 96AD, who was assassinated. One would have to be very careful of making such statements under occupation. This of course is the reason for using apocalyptic language to encode the message.

And of course there is also the general understanding that six is the number of man and triple six means total depravity. But this given interpretation addresses every word of the Prophesy within the context of the historical record. It is common today to “skip over” or ignore parts of the prophesy.

 

[tm2cruz]

Couldn't find Sena's book but I found this on the net.

"In Hebrew, each of the 22 letters of the alphabet has a numerical value. A code called gematria, developed in Jewish apocalyptic and mystical circles, draws connections between two otherwise unrelated words based on the total numerical value of the letters in each word. Nero's name or title in Hebrew looks like this: (NRON QSR), meaning Nero Caesar. Taking the value of the Hebrew letters, N=50, R=200, O=6, N=50, Q=100, S=60, R=200, one comes up with the sum of 666. To make this identification of the beast with Nero even more convincing, it should be noted that some Greek manuscripts of Revelation give the number 616 rather than 666 - probably due to an alternative spelling of Nero as NRO rather than NRON (666 minus the final N [=50] gives 616)."

Oh, thank you! Let me post this one in the WOF forum and hope it will help them

 

[RMDY]

I still believe the book of revelation is talking about future events yet to come and not something that was suppose to happen 2000 years ago...

 

[Codger]

I still believe the book of revelation is talking about future events yet to come and not something that was suppose to happen 2000 years ago...

Oh... explain what your true motives are for doing so.

 

[RMDY]

Oh... explain what your true motives are for doing so.

Motives? Are you assuming I have a secret agenda?

I see more evidence to support the idea that the book of revelation has not been fulfilled yet, and has yet to be fulfilled....

Listen to these sermons and you'll see what I mean: NFBC - The Book of Revelation - Choose a Chapter

NFBC - The Final Countdown