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6 million Muslims convert to Christianity

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by CherubRam, Apr 29, 2014.

  1. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Muslims are taught to do anything for their faith, and there can't be compromise, so many among them really would do anything.
     
  2. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Nonsense. Muslims come in all shapes and sizes, just like Christians.
     
  3. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

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    As my professor from Jordan said in class on Wednesday, 'We have Muslims in name only and then we have those that try to follow Islam.' (I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote.)
     
  4. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Then we have those who try and use Islam to further their political agendas.
     
  5. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    delete
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
  6. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    I posted what this post responds to because I was waiting to see your response to post #280 in 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity, to which you still have not responded. If you do see it, do you say Muslims do not observe the passage mentioned? Aren't there observing Muslims?
     
  7. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    Hello,

    You have quoted the following verses from the Qur’an, and appear to ask whether or not these are observed by the Muslims:

    ‘Allāh has purchased the persons and possessions of the believers in return for the Garden - they fight in Allāh’s way: they kill and are killed - this is a true promise given by Him in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Qur’an. Who could be more faithful to his promise than Allāh? So be happy with the bargain you have made: that is the supreme triumph. (The believers are) those who turn to Allāh in repentance; who worship and praise Him; who bow down and prostrate themselves; who order what is good and forbid what is wrong and who observe Allāh’s limits. Give glad news to such believers.’ (Al-Tawba: 111-112).

    This passage defines the relationship between the Muslims and their Lord. Becoming a Muslim is described as a contract – covenant, if you like – in which the purchaser is Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), and the seller is one who has given themselves to Him; without reservation.

    We are reminded that our lives are entirely in His hands; and that we can never rightly withhold anything that could be given in service to His cause; but what does this mean?

    It means that Muslims must strive to uphold His commandments, and to turn away - in condemnation - from all He has forbidden. They must strive to excel in prayer; in charity; in good deeds of all kinds; in standing up for what is true against what is false; and yes, in fighting when they have to, in order to protect themselves, and all who seek their protection. Muslims are obliged to protect the defenceless; women; children; and the old from privation, suffering and moral peril. According to the Shari’a, fighting in a ‘just war’ is a duty (as it is in all other forms of state governance, whether religious or secular). Is there any Christian or Jew who would not do likewise?

    I hope this helps.
     
  8. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    If your asking if Muslims will fight for a righteous cause, one which ends oppression and persecution. Yes, their religion tells them to do so. It does not tell the to do anything like which is what you falsely asserted.
     
  9. Zoness

    Zoness Cipherpunk Supporter

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    I mean, this is basically true of Christianity as well.
     
  10. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Thank you for that helpful response. I was asking Smaneck before what the passage seemed to say because I had posted to another earlier that basis could be found for a suicidal act from what Muslims are shown. I see how a contracted relationship is spoken of there. You showed a good perspective for Muslims. I can't speak for Jews generally, as I don't know for Muslims, but there are a variety of positions on such for Christians. I don't know that there is basis for pacifism among you, but among Christians, just as there are those seeing justification for war in some things, others are seeing basis for pacifism in such things, from what is in the Bible.

    I am not making false assertions, saying that wasn't called for, I was wanting you to post your perspective, and I was posting exactly what I saw was suggested from the passage I mentioned, that there could be Muslims that would do anything for Islam, from what is said.

    Yet I know things Yahweh God said in the Bible, along with loving and respecting Yahweh God and having no other God, we are not to kill, as we are not to commit adultery, not to cheat or steal, and not to bear false witness. Jesus said things for such in more extensive ways. So there is basis among many of Christianity even seen for pacifism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  11. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    You do realize that according to the Bible Saul lost his throne for refusing God's order to commit genocide?

    Yes, we see that with TG123. But most Christians accept St. Augustine's definition of a just war and I don't see anything in the Qur'an or the Shariah which differs from it. Suicide bombings are a very recent (1983) innovation. And "innovation" in Islam is a byword for heresy.
     
  12. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    It seems to me it is the great priority to Yahweh that more will come to redemption in God's plan with coming to repentance, which works through Christ. Genocide generally will not work for that. But God can and does take lives all the time, being God. And God gave order to Abraham to take his son up to Mount Moriah to sacrifice him. Abraham needed to show he would do this because Yahweh told him.

    So it is that Yahweh told Joshua the armies of Israel were to go in to kill the Canaanites, but this was left to be done when they had reached the fullness of degeneracy, with their wickedness not having reached that before. And opportunity was still left for any city among them to unconditionally surrender and serve the people of Israel. The facts of what happened left most of the settlements of Canaan unconquered, in that generation and long afterward. Yahweh also said that his own actions killed off Canaanites ahead of the armies of Israel. So also the Amelekites were fully degenerate and to be eliminated. I see that Yahweh's plan to do away with a people means that more redemption is only possible without them and no more of them would respond to come to that.

    Saul lost his kingship, though after a great deal of time, because he was not obeying Yahweh, and acted on his own, this leading the people of Israel from obedience to Yahweh and serving Yahweh. It was seen early with his not destroying the flocks as he was told to do, with his claim he would save them for sacrifice. But the flocks were not to be of any benefit to people of Israel, as they were being saved for as it was.

    I don't know what the reference to TG123 was. There could be just wars, but what I see for that would make such very exceptional, in that they would be truly defensive on the part of a justified nation, to assist and defend those which are truly not aggressive, and only in response to clearly aggressive actions of a violent enemy nation. Since Bible times God is not directing any to take action in war.

    I don't see where in the Quran there are such limits given as in the Bible.
     
  13. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Let's not obscure what really happened. Saul was told to commit genocide against all the Amalekites, even infants and sucklings. He didn't just spare the animals, he also spared the king.

    Here are the rules of warfare in Islam:

    1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

    2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)

    3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)

    4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)

    5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

    6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)

    7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)

    8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)

    9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).

    10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

    - See more at: http://1000gooddeeds.com/2012/11/20/10-islamic-rules-of-war/#sthash.TyXbH6GL.dpuf
     
  14. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Yes, I failed to think of the king in remembering the passage, that is important too. I wasn't really saying anything that obscured what happened, I did in fact mention in my post the Amelekites that were to be eliminated. And godly perspective recognizes, none are innocent. I do say that Canaanites and Amelekites are exceptional cases, for which the word of Yahweh came. God isn't saying anything for justifying war today. I still say any just war is very exceptional. Saul was generally disobedient to God, from saving animals for his and the people's use onward.

    Thanks for sharing that, for me to have better perspective of things said of this. "To not do wrong" is not unambiguously saying not to kill, as this is said for generally in the Bible, as to slay and to be slain is not wrong for the faithful in the Qur'an passage that was mentioned, though here there are some exceptions to it being mentioned.
     
  15. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    And that makes babies and toddlers legitimate targets of war?

    I wouldn't say it was "for" them. The Amelekites were targeted for something that had been done to the Israelites centuries before they were done. The Canaanites were targeting as part of the ethnic cleansing necessary to make room for the Israelites. Incidentally, Christian preachers used passages like this to justify the genocide similarly committed against Native Americans.

    As it is in Islam. Both the Israelites and Muslims have one thing in common. Both had a community to protect that was both religious and political. The New Testament differs from the Tanakh and the Qur'an because there is no such community for Christianity at the time. That is why when Christians do have political power, they go back to the standards of the Old Testament.

    Whereas the Tanakh allows for the targeting of non-combatants, Islam does not. That is the key difference here.
     
  16. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    No, yet though you won't believe it with maybe this as your basis Yahweh says to do something it is right to do, and so as believers generally might see, as I said, as redemption with coming to repentance for restoration, as made possible from Christ, is what God values over all, any young among Amelekites, however many there were, were never coming to that then, which God knows, and Amelekites would further hinder it. This then is an exception necessary from God's revelation but not at all a pattern to be repeated from what God said.

    I don't about that in history, it would be really sad if true, though certainly there was all the great unfairness to Native Americans, I actually never say anything justifies it, and have said that Native Americans have the greatest claim according to all real justice and fairness to the land they occupied through their history.

    The law is not targeting non-combatants, such ones that were targeted that is justified in the Bible are those exceptional cases shown as revelation right from God.
     
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