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Featured 50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Difference between Israel and the Church

    Introduction


    One of the great theological battlegrounds of orthodox Christianity throughout the centuries has been the nature and character of the Church, especially in relation to its biblical predecessor, Israel. The two major views are that:

    1. The Church is a continuation of Israel
    2. The Church is completely different from Israel

    First View: The Church is Israel


    The predominant view has been that the Church is the “new” Israel, a continuation of the concept of Israel which began in the Old Testament. In this view, the Church is the refinement and higher development of the concept of Israel. All of the promises made to Israel in the Scriptures find their fulfillment in the Church. Thus, the prophecies relating to the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” into promises of blessing to the Church. The prophecies of condemnation and judgment, though, are retained literally by the Jewish nation of Israel.

    This view is sometimes called Replacement Theology, because the Church is seen to replace Israel in God’s economy. One of the problems with the view, among others, is the continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned to extinction, and there is no divinely ordained future for the Jewish nation, how does one account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people since the establishment of the Church, for almost 2,000 years against all odds? Furthermore, how does one account for Israel’s resurgence among the family of nations as an independent nation, victorious in several wars and flourishing economically?

    Second View: Israel and the Church are Different

    The other view, we believe, is clearly taught in the New Testament, but it has been suppressed throughout most of Church history. This view is that the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused. In fact, the Church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead, and will continue until it is taken to Heaven at the Rapture return of the Lord Eph. 1:9-11). None of the curses or blessings pronounced upon Israel refer directly to the Church. The Church enters into the Abrahamic and New Covenants, for instance, only by divine application, not by original interpretation Matt 26:28).

    This leaves all the covenants, promises, and warnings to Israel intact. Israel, the natural Jewish nation, is still Israel. To be sure, Israel has been side-lined during these past 1,900 years of the Diaspora. The Church has taken center stage in the Lord’s affairs as the Gospel has spread throughout the world. Nevertheless, God has carefully preserved the Jewish people, even in unbelief, through every kind of distress and persecution. Sometimes, the professing Church itself (I speak to our shame) has been a cause of these persecutions to the Jews.

    Not only has God preserved the Jewish nation, but He has also kept His promise to save a remnant of Israel in every generation. The remnant of Israel in this age are the Jewish believers in Christ who have joined the Gentile believers, and form the Church, the Body of Christ Rom. 11:5). In this respect, then, a part of Israel (the believing remnant) intersects with the Church during the Church Age. But this does not make Israel the

    Church, or vice versa.

    In the future, both God’s warnings and promises to Israel will come to pass. After the Lord is finished with the Church Age, and has taken the Church to Heaven in the Rapture 1 Thess. 4:16-18), God will restore Israel to center stage on the world’s divine theater. First comes the devastating “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer. 30:7) also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a dreadful period of seven years, which begins relatively lightly during the first half, but intensifies into full focus during the latter half. During this time the world is judged for rejecting Christ, but, more specifically, Israel is judged, purged and prepared through the fiery trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. This is the bad news.

    The good news is that, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready, willing, and eager to receive Him, and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt. 23:39). As the stumbling of Israel brought blessing to the world at Christ’s First Coming, the reception of Israel to Christ at His Second Advent will be like “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:15). The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation (some one-third of the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation), will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on the same earth and the same capital city, Jerusalem, that rejected Him centuries before. Israel will be the head of the nations, and no longer the tail, and all nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isa. 2:2-3;Micah 4:1). The Church will return with Christ, and will rule with Him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5). He Himself told His disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the restoration (Matt. 19:28). Thus, Israel has not been forgotten in God’s plan. While the Jewish nation still has a dark period facing it, there is a glorious finale to Israel’s long history.

    How Did the Church Decide the Demise of Israel?

    The New Testament Church was very much involved with the vicissitudes of Israel. Jesus is an Israeli, as were all the apostles, and the concerns of Israel, spiritually and politically, were very much a part of their lives. The greatest struggles the early Church had were over the relationship between Israel and the Church, law and grace, and the fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ (Galatians). Many of the Jewish believers were not comfortable with the Gentile believers at first; and as time went on and Gentiles began to predominate numerically, the attitudes were reversed. Galatians shows how the Jewish party tried to impose the Mosaic Law on Gentile Christians, and Romans shows how the Gentile party began to “boast against the branches” (Rom. 11:18), resenting the place of Israel in history and theology.

    It took some time, perhaps a couple of centuries, but eventually the vast Gentile majority in the Church began to view Israel as a vestigial organ that had outlived its usefulness. In fact, the predominant Christian view was that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD signaled the official and divinely-ordained end of the Jewish nation, never more to be re-instituted as a national entity. The fact that Jerusalem lay in ruins and the Jewish people were scattered over the world was seen as conclusive evidence that God was forever finished with national Israel. If there were any purpose for the existence of the Jewish people, it was to remind the world of the severe judgment of God upon a disobedient people.

    If this harsh view of Israel were true, though, what of the promises of God to Israel in the Old Testament? For those who claimed to believe in the entire Bible as the Word of God, this was a great problem. How could a faithful God not keep His promises to His ancient people? To deal with this took extraordinary theological dexterity and alchemy. The theologians had to propose that Israel in the Scriptures did not really mean Israel, especially when it came to the promises of eternal blessing. Instead, Israel meant something else, something that came to be known in the New Testament as the Church. The Church became the new Israel, and through this remarkable transformation, wherever blessing is promised to Israel in the Old Testament, it was interpreted to mean the Church. This is Replacement Theology, in which the Church has become Israel.

    Replacement Theology was already around before the end of the First Century, but did not become the official position of professing Christian leadership until Augustine popularized the concept, primarily in THE CITY OF GOD, in the latter part of the Fourth Century. Augustine actually states that he was previously a Chiliast, meaning that he was a believer in the thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth after His return. This is the same as our current description of Premillennialism. However, he had come to the conclusion that this view was “carnal,” and had adopted the view that the reign of Christ would be something more “spiritual,” and would actually occur during the Church Age. Such a view necessitated the extinction of Israel, and the cancellation of all promises God made to the Jewish nation. These promises of blessing would now be fulfilled within the framework of the Church.

    This view, which had been latent in Christendom, now flourished throughout the Byzantine world. From this point on, the theological legs were cut out from under Israel, and the predominant Christian theology was that there was no future for Israel. Replacement Theology has been the rule that has survived the Middle Ages, the Crusades and the Reformation in Church History. Only during the last Century or so has the Premillennial concept of the future of Israel come to the forefront in evangelical Christianity. Even so, it is a minority view.

    Does Israel’s Future Demean the Church’s Glory?

    Some suggest that if Israel has not ceased to exist in its covenant relationship to God, and if Israel still has a future in the divine plan, this somehow diminishes the position of the Church. Is such a concern valid? It is almost as though the Church has been jealous of Israel, and afraid that if it recognized Israel’s future promises, it would somehow demean Christ and the Church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    t is when the Church recognizes Israel that the true distinctiveness and glory of the Body of Christ becomes evident. This called-out body, composed of believing Jews and Gentiles during the Church Age, is the highest entity the Lord has created, superior to the universe, all the Angels, the nations, and Israel. Our Head, our Husband, our Friend is the Son of God Himself. We shall reign with Him when He rules the earth, and our 12 Founding Apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. The Angels themselves will study us forever as the greatest exhibit of God’s grace, and we will actually judge the Angels. This is our destiny, and this writer, for one, would not trade his position in the Body of Christ with any creature in the universe! Why, then, be disturbed over what God has promised the Jewish people? Why be jealous over the future destiny of Israel? How short sighted of us! Indeed, the Church’s finest and most distinctive hour will be when Israel is restored nationally and spiritually to the Lord at the Second Coming of Christ. We will return from Heaven with Him as His glorious Bride to rule Israel and the world. What more could we ask?

    So, if we are not to suffer from spiritual myopia, we must recognize what the Lord is doing with Israel, not shrinking from it as though our own interests will be overshadowed. Rather, we rejoice in these developments, with full assurance that our own redemption draws ever closer.

    This article is scheduled to appear in the Dictionary of Premillennial Theology, to be published by Kregel Publications.

    By Thomas S. McCall

    Source: Israel and the Church: the Differences


    Quasar92
     
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  2. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    Whereas Darby and Scofield said God has two peoples, Paul says God only has one people...

    Ephesians 2:15... Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Absolutely not.

    Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel. (Matthew 1:1)

    Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 


    It is Dispensationalists who have replaced the One Seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

    They have replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

    They have replaced the word "so", with the word "then", in Romans 11:26.

    They have replaced the Son, who is the heir in Matthew chapter 21, with those who have rejected Him as the "chief cornerstone".

    They have replaced the New Covenant Church as the ultimate fulfillment of God's Plan, with the modern State of Israel.

    They have replaced the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles, with a Church made up of only Gentiles.

    .
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are two groups of people; the first one is the chosen people of Israel, God initially chose as a people for Himself.

    The second group is the one body of Christ, the Church He founded and is the Head of, consisting of everyone who berlieves in Him.

    when Jesus has established His Millennial Kingdom here on earth, the two groups above will become one, fulfilling Jn.10:16.

    My post #141 refute you. Darby and Scofield are correct.


    Quasar92
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The children of Israel were chosen to produce the Messiah found in the verse below.

    Mat 1:1  The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: 



    You are saying what John the Baptist told his own people they were not to say.

    Mat 3:9  and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.


    You are ignoring what Paul said in Galatians 3:16.

    Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ. 


    You are ignoring what Timothy said.

    1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 


    Your doctrine is based on race, instead of Grace.


    There is only one people of God, based on 1 John 2:22-23.

    1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar? Who else but the person who rejects Jesus as the Messiah? The person who rejects the Father and the Son is an antichrist.

    1Jn 2:23 Everyone who rejects the Son doesn't have the Father either. The person who acknowledges the Son also has the Father.
    (GW)




    Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.

    Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.

    Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)

    .



     
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    h

    Whether you will ever accept it or not, there are two groups of people. Those of us who believe in Jesus Christ, the Founder and Head of the Church, consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, all baptized into His Body by the Holy Spirit, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13! Who WILL NOT go through the tribulation, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.1:10; 4:16-17; 5:9; 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8; Rev.19:7-8 and 14! ALL BELIEVERS are baptized into the One Body of Jesus Christ, His Church - NOT INTO ISRAEL!

    The other group consists of all those who DO NOT believe in Jesus Christ, including Israel, whom God has decreed, WILL go through the tribulation, as recorded in Jer.30:7; Zech.12:10; 14:4-5; Dan.9:27' Mt.24:4-31 as well as the counter parts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21!


    As I told you previously, non-believing Israel will finally accept Jesus as their Messiah, AFTER His second coming, as recorded in Zech.12:10. When Jesus establishes His Millennial kingdom, repentant Israel and the Church WILL BECOME ONE GROUP of God's ELECT, fulfilling John 10:16! Capiche?!

    My post #141 refutes you and provides you with the Scriptural facts nd truth. When re you going to read it?!


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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  8. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    The Bible says that has already happened...

    Ephesians 2:13-15... But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
     
  9. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, Israel HAS NOT accepted Jesus as their Messiah yet, and according to Zech.12:10, they won't until Jesus second coming.

    Paul is addressing believers in Eph.2:13-15, who belong to the One Body of Christ, the Founder and Head of His Church! The Church IS NOT non-believing Israel, and never will be. The Israel of God, in Gal.6:16, are believing Jews, who belong to the Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.

    Review post #146.


    Quasar92
     
  10. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    You agree with me that believing Jews today belong to the Church.

    Will believing Jews during the Tribulation belong to the Church?

    I say Yes. What do you say?
     
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The tribulation martyrs will consist of all those who will be left behind, to go through the tribulation, AFTER the Church of all believers is CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED to be with the Lord forever, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3,28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

    The tribulation martyrs/saints DO NOT belong to the raptured Church. They will be brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, God will place on earth, as recorded in Rev.7:1-17. The martyrs/saints will pay for their testimony of Jesus with their lives as recorded in Rev.20:4.

    The Church IS NOT Israel and never will be, Nor is Israel the Church..

    Review my posts 146 and 149.


    Quasar92
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 

    .
     
  13. Yahchristian

    Yahchristian Active Member

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    Since you say those who get saved during the Tribulation DO NOT belong to the Church...

    Will those who get saved during the Tribulation be Christians? Or will they just be Israelites?

    I am trying to determine if you think someone can be a Christian but not belong to the Church.


    P.S. I say they are Christians.
     
  14. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Church of today, consisting of everyone who ever believed/received Jesus as their Lord and Savior will meet Jesus together in the clouds of the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, confirmed with them being in heaven while the tribulation takes place on earth, at the marriage, in Rev.19:7-8, where the Church age ENDS. The tribulation martyrs/saints will be killed for their testimony of Jesus during the tribulation and serve as priests during Jesus Millennial kingdom, for 1,000 years. They will mot belong to either Israel or the Church, but rather, they will all be the ELECT of God.


    Quasar92
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As I keep telling you, my posts #146 and #149 refute you. Your argument that the Church of Jesus is Israel, is dead wrong as has been proven by the Scripture for you many times over. Your above post and use of Peter's address of the Church at the time of Pentecost, consisted of nearly all Israelites. And Peter's commission as an Apostle, was to the Israelites. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know and understand, the Church of today is predominantly Gentile.

    Give it up, you have no argument!


    Quasar92
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Sorry Quasar, you are wrong. Nothing you have presented proves that God intends to redeem the non Christian Jews.

    Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It isn’t those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.
    The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behavior, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    It was always possible for foreigners to join Israel, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant. Leviticus 19:3-34, Isaiah 56:1-8. Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is counted into the House of Israel.
    Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18

    So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:
    1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. There are no proofs of ancestry extant today.
    2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.
    3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17

    Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Cor. 1:20

    So now all we Christians, in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel. WE are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18

    This truth that all righteous Christians are the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. We will never go to live in heaven, but eventually heaven comes down to earth. Revelation 20:4

    The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

    It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11
     
  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom.11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”


    Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed


    Zech.12:1 "A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
    The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

    6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

    7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

    Mourning for the One They Pierced
    10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your whole argument hinges on the word "predominantly", and then you plainly admit that Peter addressed a crowd of "nearly all Israelites" on the day the Church began.

    Thank you for confirming the truth.

    During the first few years of the Church it was "predominantly" an Israelite Church.

    Based on Galatians 1:16-18, Paul did not take the Gospel to the Gentiles until about 3 years after his conversion.

    For some strange reason you seem to believe that the word "predominately" changed the nature of the Church after the Day of Pentecost from an Israelite Church into a Gentile Church, even though Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into one tree.

    This is the type of logic that is needed to make your doctrine work.

    Then you must also ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. These passages completely destroy your whole argument that Israel and the Church cannot be one and the same.


    The ultimate fulfillment of Israel is Jesus Christ. He is the "chief cornerstone".

    .
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Quasar, Zechariah 12 does mean that many Jews will be saved. This is confirmed by there being at least 24,000 Christians of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin for their part of the 144,000.
    But 24,000 or even probably double that, say 50,000 out of the Jewish world population of approximately 15 million, is still only a remnant, as Romans 9:27 confirms.
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Now my post #157 can e added to #146 and #149 that refute your non-Scriptural claim that Israel is the Church Jesus founded and is the Head of, as recorded in Col.1:18.
    No amount of arguing is going to alter the Scriptural fact, the Church and Israel are two very separate entities God is dealing with differently until all has been consamated in Jesus Millennial reign on earth.


    Quasar92
     
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