50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

shakewell

Active Member
Jun 17, 2013
310
56
✟40,638.00
Faith
Christian
Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Joh_16:33  These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Rom_5:3  And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Rom_8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom_12:12  rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

2Co_1:4  who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

2Co_7:4  Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

1Th_3:4  For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Rev_1:9  I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 2:9  "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 


Rev_2:10  Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418



Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf



Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



Left Behind or Led Astray?

Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

.

5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.


As I told you in my previous post on this thread, there are no resurrections in Rev.11. The first resurrection does not take place until nine chapters later, in Rev.20:4.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How can you have a "time of the dead, that they should be judged" in Revelation 11:18, without a resurrection of the dead?

Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 

.


As I told you in my previous post on this thread, there are no resurrections in Rev.11. The first resurrection does not take place until nine chapters later, in Rev.20:4.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
No problem. :) Good opening post, by the way. I enjoy Walvoord's writings.
Dr John Walvoord also wrote: The rapture question is determined more in ecclestology [doctrines of the Church] than in eschatology [Bible prophecy] Neither pre-tribulationisim nor post-tribulationism is an explicit teaching of scripture. The Bible does not state it in so many words.
Ref; The Rapture Question. 1957

Regarding the 50 'proofs' of his, if you google them, you will find several people have done a complete refutation of them all. I could have done it too.
It's time for people to realize that a rapture removal of the Church is not part of God's plan for His people. We must stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. Revelation 13:9-10
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
4,525
1,313
South
✟105,161.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As I told you in my previous post on this thread, there are no resurrections in Rev.11. The first resurrection does not take place until nine chapters later, in Rev.20:4.


Quasar92

Do you think a pre-tribulation rapture takes place in chapter 20?
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Do you think a pre-tribulation rapture takes place in chapter 20?


No. Rev.20 takes place after Jesus second coming WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He will rapture seven years before, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
there are no resurrections in Rev.11.

Rev 11:7  When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
Rev 11:9  Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 
Rev 11:10  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 
Rev 11:11  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 
Rev 11:12  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Rev 11:7  When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
Rev 11:9  Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 
Rev 11:10  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 
Rev 11:11  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 
Rev 11:12  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 

.


Reference I made to there not being any resurrection in my post #185, was to GENERAL resurrections, such as the only two documented in the Bible, in Rev.20:4 and 5. The two witnesses in Rev.11 do not qualify for that reason.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Reference I made to there not being any resurrection in my post #185, was to GENERAL resurrections, such as the only two documented in the Bible, in Rev.20:4 and 5. The two witnesses in Rev.11 do not qualify for that reason.


Quasar92

The witnesses are resurrected from the dead, but you said there were no resurrections in Rev. 11.


You still have not dealt with the fact that "the time of the judgment of the dead" is in Revelation 11:18, but somehow you think the judgment of the dead has nothing to do with the resurrection from the dead.


Try reading John 5:27-30 and see if you can separate the judgment of the dead from the resurrection of "all" the dead.

This is the type of logic needed to make your doctrine work.

.
 
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
4,525
1,313
South
✟105,161.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No. Rev.20 takes place after Jesus second coming WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He will rapture seven years before, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92

I see a number of problems here.


1. None of the above passages state there is a “rapture” resurrection 7 years before anything.


2. Is your 7 years before “coming” His first second coming or His second, second coming? Hebrew 9:28


3. You have assumed “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians means “departure” from the planet. It states nothing of the kind. Even if you insist on the word “departure” it is departure from the faith just like the same Greek word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21. We are told there will be a departure from the faith in the latter times. We are told nowhere in scripture there will be a mass departure from the planet that is only assumed.


1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


4. You have assumed he that is “taken out of the way” is the Holy Spirit and therefore the church must be taken with Him. There is nothing in the text to back up that assumption.


5. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly states the coming of our Lord and our gathering will be after the man of sin is revealed.


6. Where does it say in Revelation 20 or 19 He comes with His already resurrected and changed church?

7. If Revelation 20 is the 1st resurrection just exactly what is it you claim happened 7 years before?

 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The witnesses are resurrected from the dead, but you said there were no resurrections in Rev. 11.


You still have not dealt with the fact that "the time of the judgment of the dead" is in Revelation 11:18, but somehow you think the judgment of the dead has nothing to do with the resurrection from the dead.


Try reading John 5:27-30 and see if you can separate the judgment of the dead from the resurrection of "all" the dead.

This is the type of logic needed to make your doctrine work.

.


Read my post #191 where you received my answer. Judgment will take place at the same time the two genera resurrections in Rev.20:4 and 5 take place, that are separated by 1,000 years.

The two witnesses of Rev.11 were never buried, They were RAISED from the dead when the voice from heave told them to "come up here."


Quasar92
 
  • Haha
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The two witnesses of Rev.11 were never buried, They were RAISED from the dead when the voice from heave told them to "come up here."

Are you saying they were "RAISED", not resurrected from the dead, because they were not buried?

And this is from those who say they take the Bible "literally"...

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I see a number of problems here.


1. None of the above passages state there is a “rapture” resurrection 7 years before anything.


2. Is your 7 years before “coming” His first second coming or His second, second coming? Hebrew 9:28


3. You have assumed “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians means “departure” from the planet. It states nothing of the kind. Even if you insist on the word “departure” it is departure from the faith just like the same Greek word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21. We are told there will be a departure from the faith in the latter times. We are told nowhere in scripture there will be a mass departure from the planet that is only assumed.


1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


4. You have assumed he that is “taken out of the way” is the Holy Spirit and therefore the church must be taken with Him. There is nothing in the text to back up that assumption.


5. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly states the coming of our Lord and our gathering will be after the man of sin is revealed.


6. Where does it say in Revelation 20 or 19 He comes with His already resurrected and changed church?

7. If Revelation 20 is the 1st resurrection just exactly what is it you claim happened 7 years before?


Why 1 Thes.4:16 is not a resurrection and the timing of the rapture of the Church:

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.

The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him..., which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.

In 2 Thess.2:3 he made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the apostasiaGreek term meaning departure [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term apostasia and the Latin term discessio Jerome translated apostasia as, in 325 A.D.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].
The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:1-8].

In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them!
But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven as He promises us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, ridiing white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!

.

Quasar92
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yahchristian

Active Member
Mar 3, 2017
389
73
65
South Carolina
✟20,400.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why 1 Thes.4:16 is not a resurrection and the timing of the rapture of the Church:


What Pre-trib book are you quoting?

Most Pre-trib authors say these both occur before the Tribulation...
  • The Resurrection of all church age believers who have died (vss. 14-16).
  • The Rapture of living believers, those remaining when He comes (vs. 17).
Source: J. Hampton Keathley, III


P.S.

I personally agree with the Historicist View instead of the Pre-Trib View...

presentist1.gif


futurist1.gif
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].
Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio" is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is completely consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3
 
  • Like
Reactions: Postvieww
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What Pre-trib book are you quoting?

Most Pre-trib authors say these both occur before the Tribulation...
  • The Resurrection of all church age believers who have died (vss. 14-16).
  • The Rapture of living believers, those remaining when He comes (vs. 17).
Source: J. Hampton Keathley, III


P.S.

I personally agree with the Historicist View instead of the Pre-Trib View...

presentist1.gif


futurist1.gif


Yes, I am aware that many well qualified expositors refer to 1 Thess.4:16 as the resurrection of those wh previously died in Christ. Hoiwever, that is not wht Paul meant at all. My post #196 explains the reasons why it is not a resurrection, completely. Another major reason is the fact that Jesus made it known to John, the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4 is the first one, seven years after the events of 1 Thess.4:16.


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio" is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is completely consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



As previously posted pertaining to the meaning of the Greek and Latin words, APOSTASIA and DISCESSIO, which means DEPARTURE, in the text of 2 Thess,2:3. which is about a RAPTURE! Not about an FALLING AWAY. The theme of the entire passage between verss1 and 8, is in the very first verse, which states, "About our gathering unto the Lord Jesus Christ" [paraphrased], which is a dirct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, when Jesus returns for everyone who belongs to Him, and we will be CAUGHT UP to be with Him forever!

>>>Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.<<<


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0