5 reasons babies should be baptized

Tangible

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If we could repentant "in and of ourselves" what purpose was there for Jesus to come and die?
I think I agree, however, repentance has two parts, first that we recognize our sinfulness and are contrite, and second that we believe the Gospel, the good news that in Jesus Christ and for his sake alone God has done everything necessary for our salvation.

Repentance is nothing but being converted, it is completely an act of God.

If we are totally reliant on God to grant us repentance (while we do nothing), who is in danger of judgement, which is to say, the only reason I didn't "get" repentance is because God never gave it to me... that puts all of the blame on God, and I believe we all can agree God is above reproach.
I agree that God is above reproach. We cannot stand in judgment of God. If any are lost, it is not the fault of God who desires for all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If any are lost, they are rightfully condemned as sinners, those who loved darkness rather than light, haters of God who will receive their just reward.

John told the Pharisees to bring forth fruit (show actions) meet (to prove) for repentance. There are two sides to this coin, God grants us repentance based on the condition of our heart.

In Psalms 51 David cries out to God and declares a broken, spirit and a contrite heart God will not despise. Two characteristics of a heart searching for repentance.
How can we be contrite unless it is granted to us by God? The fleshly mind is hostile to God. The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

It is not until God has granted us his Holy Spirit that we are able to recognize our sinful state, experience contrition, and believe the Gospel.

Whether you agree with my statements here or not, I would like you now to reply to first set of questions, before this gets dragged off into the north forty:

Can an infant repent?
Yes, by the graceful gift of God. He is "repented" by God. He is turned from death to life. He is granted repentance, in exactly the same way as God grants repentance to older people.
If you do reply Yes, What is he repenting from?
Concupiscence, the innate sinfulness bound up in the flesh he inherited from his father Adam.

Can you name a time in scripture when baptism occurred without repentance first taking place?
I do not accept your position that repentance must necessarily precede baptism. I do not deny that it can take place this way, but you are generalizing from specific instances and coming to a fallacious conclusion. It is not good logic to assume that just because you know something happens one way, it cannot also happen another way.

Finally, if an infant is baptized, what is the purpose of that baptism, or better said what is being accomplished through that action?
To quote Luther's Small Catechism,

What benefits does baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
 
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Ken Rank

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What benefits does baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

This is why I bothered to comment. You (and others) state that it is God who forgives sins, but then keep making statements like this (or sharing quotes like this) that really place the weight on the act itself and not on God. Baptism does nothing... God forgives sins. He might command us to be baptized as an outward act but the work is His alone.

If baptism itself forgives sins... then we don't need messiah. So... what benefits does baptism give? Does it REALLY forgive sin? Does it REALLY rescue us from death and the devil? Does it REALLY give eternal salvation? No... baptism does nothing like that at all... for if it did, it ceases being grace and becomes totally dependent on our ability to follow directions.
 
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Tangible

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We are talking about commandments of God.... not barium. If there is no clear Word from God then we cannot make it a decree over others. If you are convicted to do this, then do it... but don't enforce it on others, that is legalism.



Because the position being taken was that we should all do this. Without any clear mandate in Scripture, enforcing this on others, is, again, legalism.



You don't... I have repeatedly told you to do as you are convicted and that it is between you and God not you and me. The only thing I did say for you to do was NOT make it a decree on others.
So attempting to clear up a great misunderstanding that many Christians have about infant baptism is to be accused of legalism?

I think we should probably move on, as you have said you were going to do several times. It appears that you are perhaps becoming frustrated and I would hate to cause you to stumble.

I have enjoyed our discussion. God's blessings to you.
 
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Tangible

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This is why I bothered to comment. You (and others) state that it is God who forgives sins, but then keep making statements like this (or sharing quotes like this) that really place the weight on the act itself and not on God. Baptism does nothing... God forgives sins. He might command us to be baptized as an outward act but the work is His alone.

If baptism itself forgives sins... then we don't need messiah. So... what benefits does baptism give? Does it REALLY forgive sin? Does it REALLY rescue us from death and the devil? Does it REALLY give eternal salvation? No... baptism does nothing like that at all... for if it did, it ceases being grace and becomes totally dependent on our ability to follow directions.
This is where we are talking past each other. You see baptism as a work of man. We see baptism as a work of God. And if God works through baptism, then baptism is able to do amazing things indeed.
 
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Ken Rank

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So attempting to clear up a great misunderstanding that many Christians have about infant baptism is to be accused of legalism?

I think we should probably move on, as you have said you were going to do several times. It appears that you are perhaps becoming frustrated and I would hate to cause you to stumble.

I have enjoyed our discussion. God's blessings to you.
:) :oldthumbsup: << in regards to moving on.

The legalism statement is tied ONLY TO one who makes a decree on others to follow your practices. Without one clear example of infant baptism or one clear command to do the same... I conclude that it MIGHT BE God's will to do this and if you are convinced it is... then please do it and be blessed in the process!!!!! But don't force it on others (not saying you did) because when we force others to adhere to our understanding and practice we are becoming legalistic.

Blessings and peace on you and yours.
Ken
 
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Ken Rank

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This is where we are talking past each other. You see baptism as a work of man. We see baptism as a work of God. And if God works through baptism, then baptism is able to do amazing things indeed.
You quoted Luther... he asks a question, "What benefits does baptism give?" And the answer given places the weight on the work and not on God...

"It (baptism, not God) works forgiveness of sins, (baptism) rescues from death and the devil, and (baptism) gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare."

See why I took it that way?

Anyway... be blessed. See you around in another thread another day.
 
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Waggles

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Here is an excellent 11 minute video covering five of the most commonly given scriptural reasons infants should be baptized.
Jesus and the Apostles always preached "repent and be baptized."
So when infants and toddlers can repent, then water baptism will apply to them, like as to adults.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:
else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14
The imputation here is that young children are covered by the baptisms and righteous faith of their parents.

And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Mark 6:12
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luke 3:3
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:30
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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Tangible

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Jesus and the Apostles always preached "repent and be baptized."
So when infants and toddlers can repent, then water baptism will apply to them, like as to adults.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:
else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14
The imputation here is that young children are covered by the baptisms and righteous faith of their parents.

And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Mark 6:12
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luke 3:3
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:30
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Please make sure you have watched the short video we are discussing, and then check out my post at #141.
 
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Waggles

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I do not deny that it can take place this way, but you are generalizing from specific instances and coming to a fallacious conclusion.
The scriptures are consistent and inclusive of one sacrament - that of water baptism by full immersion.
No where in the New Testament are babies sprinkled.
All are expected to repent and turn to obedience of the commandments given by Jesus, and reiterated by the Apostles.
Baptism can only be undertaken by persons of an age of understanding - refer back to my post #147

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark
was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Peter 3:20-21

The scriptures in all the gospels and the epistles are consistent and baptism is undertaken by new believers and converts
to the gospel as their first act of obedience to the requirements of the Christian faith.
Believe the scriptures and you will not be lead astray by anyone's catechism.

Babies do not need to repent. Babies are subject to grace and mercy of a righteous judgment.
Revelation states that on Judgment Day souls will be judged by their works as to good and evil.
Babies have more hope of mercy than most adults, whose sins are many.
God knew that millions of babies would die before they could do anything much. A righteous and loving
God of grace and mercy has already taken this into account (and thus provided for it).
 
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Gnostic_Christian

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I am someone who plans on getting baptized for the second time in his life this month. The first time was as a Catholic infant. Well, that's what they told me; I don't remember a thing about it. I don't even know if they told me the truth. We might as well have just gone out for hotdogs and fries. So meaningless. If my parents were baptized, they sure didn't act as if. Zero of the "adults" in my childhood acted as if. What a bunch of Slobberin' Christian Hypocrites (SCHool).

My take on Baptism and Original Sin:

7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
~Psalm 51, NIV

That sums it up for me. It's a cleansing ritual. Now that I am fully conscious (for a few brief moments anyway), I am choosing to live as a true Christian to the best of my ability. Baptism is a representation of my willingness to give my life to The Forefather and the Son Jesus. It's also a reenactment of something higher as we are but a reflection of the Divine. As above, so below.

[soapbox]
Does God really care whether or not we are dunked/sprinkled etc in/with water while some words by men are said? I tell you it's meaningless unless we act in accordance. Meaningless as an adult and especially meaningless as an infant. See Matthew 7:16. What is the greatest sin? What is the sin that is the mother of all sins? Ignorance. Ignorance of Jesus, yes, but also ignorance of the world we live in and the lies we are told from birth until death.
[/soapbox]

I can't help but wonder if anyone in this forum believes in reincarnation. For if we are born many, many times and still don't "git it," we are sent back to reap as we have sowed. So by the very fact that we are born on Earth (the hell-prison planet of dense fog and illusions created by a false god/archon out of ignorance and error and ruled by Satan's minions), we are born because of error (sin). See Matthew 17:12, 23:11.

I love the part in Sling Blade where Carl gets baptized. What a profound movie.
 
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OpenYourBibles

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Yes, by the graceful gift of God. He is "repented" by God. He is turned from death to life. He is granted repentance, in exactly the same way as God grants repentance to older people
This is where you and I will never come to terms - The Strongs Exhaustive Concordance and Dictionary, that I use for my study and seems to be held in good regard in the Christian Community, defines Repent as it is used in Acts 2:38 - as "to think differently, reconsider" an infant cannot think differently, and and infant has nothing to reconsider.

I do not accept your position that repentance must necessarily precede baptism. I do not deny that it can take place this way, but you are generalizing from specific instances and coming to a fallacious conclusion. It is not good logic to assume that just because you know something happens one way, it cannot also happen another way.
Isn't it a fallacious conclusion to believe in something you can provide no evidence for? In the court of law they will throw a case out for "lack of evidence."
Concupiscence, the innate sinfulness bound up in the flesh he inherited from his father Adam.
I find it so strange that you quote concupiscence here. And that may just be my personal experience. Concupiscence I suppose could just be lust, but then just say human lust - In all my time in both the church and academia concupiscence is always in reference to an extreme sexual lust - surely that is not what are little babies are repenting from!
Yes, by the graceful gift of God. He is "repented" by God. He is turned from death to life. He is granted repentance, in exactly the same way as God grants repentance to older people.
Where in scripture do you ever see someone "repented" by God - God grants repentance to those who seek it, he is not thrusting repentance on anyone.

It is not until God has granted us his Holy Spirit that we are able to recognize our sinful state, experience contrition, and believe the Gospel.
What was the "prick" they felt in their heart in Acts 2:37? After Peter explained to them their error they were "pricked" was it not the realization of their "sinful state" before they repented or were baptized, or received the Holy Ghost? Why would anyone get baptized - seek out cleansing - if they could not first recognize that they were sinful - dirty?
To quote Luther's Small Catechism,

What benefits does baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
"It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this"
So I would suppose you are going to tell me that this infant, who doesn't know his own name - believes that if he has his parents carry him into the church and a strange man splashes some water on him he has now received forgiveness of sins, he is rescued from death and the devil, and that he now has eternal salvation! And again that is where you and I will never agree. Luther already stated baptism is effective to all who believe this, yet I cannot see how a knowledgeable adult can assume that level of belief of an infant!
 
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Tangible

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I am someone who plans on getting baptized for the second time in his life this month. The first time was as a Catholic infant. Well, that's what they told me; I don't remember a thing about it. I don't even know if they told me the truth. We might as well have just gone out for hotdogs and fries. So meaningless. If my parents were baptized, they sure didn't act as if. Zero of the "adults" in my childhood acted as if. What a bunch of Slobberin' Christian Hypocrites (SCHool).

My take on Baptism and Original Sin:

7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
~Psalm 51, NIV

That sums it up for me. It's a cleansing ritual. Now that I am fully conscious (for a few brief moments anyway), I am choosing to live as a true Christian to the best of my ability. Baptism is a representation of my willingness to give my life to The Forefather and the Son Jesus. It's also a reenactment of something higher as we are but a reflection of the Divine. As above, so below.

[soapbox]
Does God really care whether or not we are dunked/sprinkled etc in/with water while some words by men are said? I tell you it's meaningless unless we act in accordance. Meaningless as an adult and especially meaningless as an infant. See Matthew 7:16. What is the greatest sin? What is the sin that is the mother of all sins? Ignorance. Ignorance of Jesus, yes, but also ignorance of the world we live in and the lies we are told from birth until death.
[/soapbox]

I can't help but wonder if anyone in this forum believes in reincarnation. For if we are born many, many times and still don't "git it," we are sent back to reap as we have sowed. So by the very fact that we are born on Earth (the hell-prison planet of dense fog and illusions created by a false god/archon out of ignorance and error and ruled by Satan's minions), we are born because of error (sin). See Matthew 17:12, 23:11.

I love the part in Sling Blade where Carl gets baptized. What a profound movie.
Thanks for chiming in. And I also really like Sling Blade. Have you ever watched Babette's Feast?

Reading your post, though, I couldn't help wondering that if your point of view were true, why the bible talks so much about baptism and what God accomplishes through baptism. I also wonder why Jesus commanded his Church to baptize. I don't think Jesus was just giving some arbitrary command, or commanding them to do something that had no effect and no value.

In Ephesians 2:6, St Paul writes about how when God justifies us, he raises us up and seats us with Christ in the heavenly places. Do you believe this is true, even though I'm pretty sure you don't remember ever being taken into the heavenly places and seated with Christ?
 
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Tangible

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The scriptures are consistent and inclusive of one sacrament - that of water baptism by full immersion.
No where in the New Testament are babies sprinkled.
Actually, there is no mode of baptism stipulated in scripture. The only explicit instruction is to baptize. In verses explaining what God accomplishes through baptism it is clear that baptism consists of the application of water along with the word of God, which of course, is the power behind the effectiveness of baptism.

Otherwise, even though there are those who attempt to prove that 'to baptize' implicitly requires submersion in water, the witness of the entirety of Scripture along with surviving contemporary secular documents in Koine make it clear that the best translation of "vaptidzo" is simply "to wash".

All are expected to repent and turn to obedience of the commandments given by Jesus, and reiterated by the Apostles. Baptism can only be undertaken by persons of an age of understanding - refer back to my post #147
Strange that I have requested scriptural support for these strange and novel positions in several posts, but I have yet to see any put forward.

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1Peter 3:20-21
I love this wonderfully clear baptismal passage. It surprises me that people believe that having a good conscience toward God can be accomplished in any way other than through the righteousness of Christ alone, as explicitly stated in these verses, "baptism ... now saves you" ... "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". I am frankly astounded that anyone would think that they could have a good conscience before God through their own merit, worthiness or obedience, apart from the saving grace of God given us for the sake of Jesus Christ alone.

This passage explains how, just as Noah and his family were saved through the destroying flood, that now baptism is the ark that God uses to carry us through the flood of the guilt of our innate sinfulness, the fallen world, and the attacks of the Enemy.

The scriptures in all the gospels and the epistles are consistent and baptism is undertaken by new believers and converts to the gospel as their first act of obedience to the requirements of the Christian faith.
Believe the scriptures and you will not be lead astray by anyone's catechism.
The problem with developing doctrine this way is that by only looking at the narrative portions of scripture, the explanation of what baptism actually is and how God uses it to save are forced into a constricted meaning that is not born out by the texts themselves.

This is why credobaptists have been forced to create out of thin air the concept of "spirit baptism" versus "water baptism" when there is no such distinction made in scripture. Baptism is baptism, water with the word of God, water with spirit, the washing of new birth and regeneration in Jesus Christ.

It's as if someone had only ever seen cars moving down the road and developed a set of rules and laws about how cars move without ever lifting the hood and learning how an internal combustion engine provides the power needed to accomplish the movement.

Babies do not need to repent. Babies are subject to grace and mercy of a righteous judgment.
Revelation states that on Judgment Day souls will be judged by their works as to good and evil. Babies have more hope of mercy than most adults, whose sins are many. God knew that millions of babies would die before they could do anything much. A righteous and loving God of grace and mercy has already taken this into account (and thus provided for it).
Still waiting for those scriptures proving that babies and children up to some arbitrary age are justified apart from faith in Jesus Christ. You do realize that you are advocating a doctrine of justification by works, don't you?
 
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EmethAlethia

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Yes I have read it. It is the basis for the practice of Holy Baptism, including infant baptism, and also Catechisis.
Make disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching. Our Lord commanded them to baptize and teach all nations. Last time I checked, infants were certainly a part of their respective nation. My children were born as American citizens. They are a part of the United States of America. I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to grasp.

Again all nations. All that Christ had commanded them, including to make disciples by baptizing and teaching.

Tangible, are we to Baptize first or make disciples first? Who, in the passage does Jesus state we should baptize? Those not yet disciples? Don't change the meaning just because you don't like the order Christ said to do things. In the passage, what's the order Christ commands we do these things? I didn't say we had to like it. I didn't even say we had to obey Him. That's a personal choice. The great commission is first going, 2nd making disciples of all nations, as you state, thirdly baptizing those disciples, and 4thly teaching them to obey ALL that Christ commanded, including to obey this command JUST AS HE GAVE IT.

You can't tell me that you don't see the same thing, right?
 
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Tangible

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This is where you and I will never come to terms - The Strongs Exhaustive Concordance and Dictionary, that I use for my study and seems to be held in good regard in the Christian Community, defines Repent as it is used in Acts 2:38 - as "to think differently, reconsider" an infant cannot think differently, and and infant has nothing to reconsider.
Strong's is held in good regard by the credobaptist community because it is skewed toward the credobaptist position. "Metanoia" simply means to turn around or turn from one path to another. An infant may not have the mental capacity to change their way of thinking, but God is certainly capable of granting them the gift of turning from the natural path to eternal death to the path of everlasting life. This is really not so strange, is it? It is the same gift God gives to adults. Unless God grants repentance, that is, contrition and faith in Christ, not even an adult can be converted from old man to new, from death to life, from unbeliever to believer.

Repentance is initially given us by God, yet you are correct in believing that we continually live in repentance as Christians. We must daily turn from unbelief, sin and false gods and back toward faith in the sufficiency of Christ's works and merits alone for our salvation. The good works God does through us are the fruit of his gift of repentance. God plants the seed of repentance, as it were, which grows, develops, matures and eventually produces fruit. In the same way, an infant granted new birth in Holy Baptism receives all the gifts God has to give in their nascent form, and as the child grows and develops, the faith and repentance granted them by God grows and develops as well.

Isn't it a fallacious conclusion to believe in something you can provide no evidence for? In the court of law they will throw a case out for "lack of evidence."
Thankfully, a biblical understanding of baptism has been sufficient evidence for believers to bring their children to God for baptism since the beginning of the Church.

I find it so strange that you quote concupiscence here. And that may just be my personal experience. Concupiscence I suppose could just be lust, but then just say human lust - In all my time in both the church and academia concupiscence is always in reference to an extreme sexual lust - surely that is not what are little babies are repenting from!
Concupiscence.

The word concupiscentia is used in the Lat. text of AC II in the definition of original sin.* Ger. text: “voll böser Lust und Neigung.” Following Augustine* of Hippo, Bonaventura,* Hugh* of St. Victor, and others, Ap II says that concupiscence seeks and loves carnal things (not only sinful lusts of the body but also carnal wisdom and righteousness), ignores and despises God, lacks fear and trust in Him, hates His judgment and flees it, is angry at Him, despairs of His mercy, and trusts in temporal things (Ro 7:7, 23; 1 Co 2:14); it rejects the claim that concupiscence is a penalty and not a sin.

W. Elert, Morphologie des Luthertums, I (Munich, 1931; 1952 print.), 25–31, tr. W. A. Hansen, The Structure of Lutheranism, I (St. Louis, 1962), 28–35.

Where in scripture do you ever see someone "repented" by God - God grants repentance to those who seek it, he is not thrusting repentance on anyone.
I see it in every case.

Romans 3 (Quoting Psalm 14)
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Psalm 127
Unless the Lord builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.

What was the "prick" they felt in their heart in Acts 2:37? After Peter explained to them their error they were "pricked" was it not the realization of their "sinful state" before they repented or were baptized, or received the Holy Ghost? Why would anyone get baptized - seek out cleansing - if they could not first recognize that they were sinful - dirty?
It was God acting through the proclamation of his word to grant them repentance. Unless God gives them to Jesus, they will never come to him (John 6:37). I have quoted several scriptures in previous posts that clearly, unequivocally state that natural man is hostile to God, he cannot even understand spiritual things because God has not yet opened his mind to believe. Man's will is naturally turned away from God. In granting repentance, God acts to turn his will away from death and toward new life in Christ.

"It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this" So I would suppose you are going to tell me that this infant, who doesn't know his own name - believes that if he has his parents carry him into the church and a strange man splashes some water on him he has now received forgiveness of sins, he is rescued from death and the devil, and that he now has eternal salvation! And again that is where you and I will never agree. Luther already stated baptism is effective to all who believe this, yet I cannot see how a knowledgeable adult can assume that level of belief of an infant!
We have given several scriptural references that clearly state that infants can have faith. Even the prenatal faith granted to John the Baptizer was clearly demonstrated.

The infant believes at a level commensurate with his ability, as do people of every age. There is really no difference. The infant, the child, the adolescent, the young adult, the mature adult, the aged adult - they all have different capacities and abilities to be aware of their sinfulness and grieve over them, as well as to believe, to trust, to rely on the grace and mercy of Christ alone for their salvation.

The infant can be demonstrated to trust. Infants trust their parents, especially their mothers, to nourish and protect them. If left alone they will cry out for comfort from a trusted parent. What is faith in Christ other than trust?
 
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Tangible, are we to Baptize first or make disciples first? Who, in the passage does Jesus state we should baptize? Those not yet disciples?
The passage actually mentions baptism first as the way to make disciples. But the word order does not indicate a prescribed order in the Koine Greek. Baptize and teach, teach and baptize, it makes no difference. Christians have always practiced both.
 
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The passage actually mentions baptism first as the way to make disciples.
No - it says to make disciples AND baptize. Two different things.

And BTW, discipling and teaching are NOT the same. Teaching is the passing on of information. Discipleship is the formation of life habits.
 
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No - it says to make disciples AND baptize. Two different things.
It says to make disciples, baptizing and teaching. The grammatical structure indicates that disciples are to be made by baptizing them and teaching them, in no particular order.

There is no reason to separate making disciples from teaching and baptizing unless you have some kind of doctrinal position that you want to read into the text. Aside from Matthew 28, it is clear from the rest of scripture that disciples were made by baptizing them and teaching them. It's very simple and very clear.

And BTW, discipling and teaching are NOT the same. Teaching is the passing on of information. Discipleship is the formation of life habits.
Sorry, but the use of didaskein and its various declensions do not bear this distinction out. For example:

Colossians 1:28
Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching (didaskontes) everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ.
 
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There is no reason to separate making disciples from teaching and baptizing unless you have some kind of doctrinal position that you want to read into the text.
Cultural understanding to interpret the text.
Discipleship was a well known institution the late 2nd Temple period Judaism.

While teaching certainly was a PART of discipleship, it was only a part.

Baptism (Hebrew Tevilah - immersion) was also well understood, but was a part of normal Jewish life - unaffiliated with discipleship.

http://heartofgodisrael.org/messianic-messages/discipleship-is-jewish/
 
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Cultural understanding to interpret the text.
Discipleship was a well known institution the late 2nd Temple period Judaism.

While teaching certainly was a PART of discipleship, it was only a part.
Synecdoche.

Baptism (Hebrew Tevilah - immersion) was also well understood, but was a part of normal Jewish life - unaffiliated with discipleship.

Discipleship is Jewish
Pietistic Messianic eisegesis. Jesus came to make new things and to give new meaning to old things.

And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (Revelation 21)

A new commandment I give to you (John 13)

Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? (Isaiah 43)
 
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