4th Century St.Augustine Exposes Ape-To-Man Hoax.

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TagliatelliMonster

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Because it had to happen over night 2 mya ago without precursors, that's why.

But the graph I just posted shows you that that isn't true....
H Erectus shows up neatly in te middle at the 1 million year mark.
So clearly, it didn't happen overnight.

No we have plenty, most of which are obviously apes.

All of which are apes, you mean.

Not the issue.

It kind of is... because it shows that it's not actually a big deal if there are fossils missing.
An actual problem would be finding fossils that don't fit. But we don't find those. The little fossils we do find ("little" in relation with the enormous amounts of time and individuals involved here...), fit evolution neatly.

Your mockery remains less the convincing to say the very least.

You can call it mockery, but it is exactly what you seem to be doing:
complaining about not having so many fossils that we can virtually witness them gradually accumulate microchanges over generations.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Don't confuse the theory of evolution with Darwinism because they are not the same thing. Evolution is a phenomenon in nature while the Darwinian tree of life is a mythology, plain and simple. The two have little to do with one another.

'Darwinism' is primarily a word used by anti-evolutionists, so I'm not likely to be using it or confusing it for anything.

By 'tree of life', do you mean something like this? I assure you it is science, not mythology.

tree-of-life_2000.png
 
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mark kennedy

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Neanderthals also had a different brain shape from us . They were a different species of Homo after all. Brain related genes are certainly open to mutations . I don’t know where you got the nonsense from that they aren’t . there were also changes to jaw muscle genes that allowed for the expansion of the skull roof to keep that larger brain from being damaged by the hard skull . There were genetic changes to allow human babies to survive at an earlier gestational age to prevent that larger head from killing the mother during labor. It’s not just changes to cranial capacity. That large brain and changed spine insertion are just the more obvious physical ones that you’d find in a fossil .

Genetics fills in the gaps in the fossil record! And of course you’re going to beat that fossils-only dead horse until you’re left with powdered bones
Where I got what nonsense exactly, show my a mutation with a beneficial effect in a brain related gene. What you are going to get are deleterious effects, disease and disorder. If any beneficial effects have been found on an evolutionary scale I have yet to see them.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Did you see the curve?

301327_50999dfde3e8abbd1b1be633a329cb8b.png


About two million years ago it spikes, there has to be a cause. Brain related genes are not open to mutations or changes of any kind, other traits, not so much. Dismissing the cranial capacity is a mistake and keep in mind, the Neanderthals had a cranial capacity larger then our own. BTW, Homo habilis existed, supposedly, two million years ago so the chart is misleading at best, that spike is much sharper then depicted.

Nobody here is dismissing the rise in cranial capacity in the Homo genus the past 2 to 3 million years.

No matter how many times you repeat it.

As for Homo Habilis' cranial capacity somehow being "misleading"... here's another table from another source:

upload_2019-2-5_16-19-29.png
 
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mark kennedy

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'Darwinism' is primarily a word used by anti-evolutionists, so I'm not likely to be using it or confusing it for anything.

By 'tree of life', do you mean something like this? I assure you it is science, not mythology.

tree-of-life_2000.png
No I mean this:

nature01495-f2.2.jpg

FIGURE 2. Comparative neuroanatomy of humans and chimpanzees. (Genetics and the making of Homo sapiens. Nature April 2003)

These are the known effects of mutations on the human brain, Human Genome Project Landmark Poster, none of them are positive. With a cranial capacity nearly three times that of the chimpanzee the molecular basis for this giant leap in evolutionary history is still almost, completely unknown. Changes in brain related genes are characterized by debilitating disease and disorder and yet our decent from a common ancestor with the chimpanzee would have had to be marked by a massive overhaul of brain related genes. I propose that a critical examination of common descent in the light of modern insights into molecular mechanisms of inheritance is the single strongest argument against human/ape common ancestry.
 
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mark kennedy

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Nobody here is dismissing the rise in cranial capacity in the Homo genus the past 2 to 3 million years.

No matter how many times you repeat it.

As for Homo Habilis' cranial capacity somehow being "misleading"... here's another table from another source:

View attachment 250673
What is the cranial capacity of modern humans and what is it for Neanderthals? Then compare that to Homo habilis and BTW, why are there no chimpanzee skulls in the fossil record?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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No I mean this:

nature01495-f2.2.jpg

FIGURE 2. Comparative neuroanatomy of humans and chimpanzees. (Genetics and the making of Homo sapiens. Nature April 2003)

These are the known effects of mutations on the human brain, Human Genome Project Landmark Poster, none of them are positive. With a cranial capacity nearly three times that of the chimpanzee the molecular basis for this giant leap in evolutionary history is still almost, completely unknown. Changes in brain related genes are characterized by debilitating disease and disorder and yet our decent from a common ancestor with the chimpanzee would have had to be marked by a massive overhaul of brain related genes. I propose that a critical examination of common descent in the light of modern insights into molecular mechanisms of inheritance is the single strongest argument against human/ape common ancestry.

You are changing the goalpost - we were talking about the increases of cranial capacity in the homo genus that took place the last 2 million years.

Chimps and humans split into seperate evolutionary branches as long as 7 million years ago.

Comparing extant humand and chimp skulls to make a point, is also dishonest, since the chimp has been on its own evolutionary path seperate for humans for the past 7 million years.

The human brain isn't "more evolved" that the chimp brain, in that sense.
Another common mistake in people arguing against evolution.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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What is the cranial capacity of modern humans and what is it for Neanderthals?

About the same when you relate it to average body size.
Remember that a large brain can not be confused with cognitive ability....

The somewhat go together, but it's not like on necessitates the other.

Then compare that to Homo habilis

Homo Habilis lived close to 2 million years before both neanderthals and homo sapiens and its cranial capacity is a lot smaller. As expected.

and BTW, why are there no chimpanzee skulls in the fossil record?

I'm not a paleontologist, so I don't know.

I'ld guess something along the lines of them not having a habbit of living in environments that facilitate fossilization. Humans on the other hand, like settling near shallow waters, rivers, lakes, etc. And they travel / migrate more whereas chimps tend to stay in their habitat. That's my educated guess, which could certainly be wrong.

Perhaps someone like @KomatiiteBIF can give us a more informed explanation?
 
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essentialsaltes

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LMGTFY

The first convincing chimp fossil has been discovered by scientists.

Unlike our human ancestors, whose fossil remains are relatively plentiful, chimps have always been conspicuously absent from the fossil record. Many experts doubted such specimens could exist because most chimps live in the rain forests of West and central Africa where acidic soil and high rainfall levels hamper fossil preservation.

Early humans, on the other hand, lived in areas more arid areas conducive to fossil preservation but relatively hostile to chimp survival, such as the East Africa Rift Valley. “It’s the last place you’d expect to find chimps,” says anthropologist Jay Kelley of the University of Illinois at Chicago, US.
 
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mark kennedy

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About the same when you relate it to average body size.
Remember that a large brain can not be confused with cognitive ability....

That wasn't the question, what was the cranial capacity?

The somewhat go together, but it's not like on necessitates the other.

The brain, what are the diminsions of the brain at such a critical point of diversion?

Homo Habilis lived close to 2 million years before both neanderthals and homo sapiens and its cranial capacity is a lot smaller. As expected.

It's anything but expected.

I'm not a paleontologist, so I don't know.

It's the low hanging fruit, a quick google search would suffice.

I'ld guess something along the lines of them not having a habbit of living in environments that facilitate fossilization. Humans on the other hand, like settling near shallow waters, rivers, lakes, etc. And they travel / migrate more whereas chimps tend to stay in their habitat. That's my educated guess, which could certainly be wrong.

Perhaps someone like @KomatiiteBIF can give us a more informed explanation?

It's because everytime an ape skull is dug up it's automatically proclaimed a human ancestor. Lucy and the Taung Child are both will within the dimensions of a chimpanzee ancestor yet it's never considered.
The Piltdown Hoax was the flagship transitional of Darwinism for nearly half a century and it was a hoax. A skull taken from a mass grave site used during the Black Plague matched up with an orangutan jawbone. Even Louis Leakey, the famous paleontologist, had said that jaw didn’t belong with that skull so people knew, long before it was exposed, that Piltdown was contrived.

Leakey mentions the Piltdown skull in his book 'Adam's Ancestors':

'If the lower jaw really belongs to the same individual as the skull, then the Piltdown man is unique in all humanity. . . It is tempting to argue that the skull, on the one hand, and the jaw, on the other, do not belong to the same creature. Indeed a number of anatomists maintain that the skull and jaw cannot belong to the same individual and they see in the jaw and canine tooth evidence of a contemporary anthropoid ape.'​

He referred to the whole affair as an enigma: In By the Evidence he says 'I admit . . . that I was foolish enough never to dream, even for a moment, that the true explanation lay in a deliberate forgery.' (Leakey and Piltdown)​

The problem was that there was nothing to replace it as a transitional from ape to man. Concurrent with the prominence of the Piltdown fossil Raymond Dart had reported on the skull of an ape that had filled with lime creating an endocast or a model of what the brain would have looked like. Everyone considered it a chimpanzee child since it’s cranial capacity was just over 400cc but with the demise of Piltdown, a new icon was needed in the Darwinian theater of the mind. Raymond Dart suggests to Louis Leakey that a small brained human ancestor might have been responsible for some of the supposed tools the Leaky family was finding in Africa. The myth of the stone age ape man was born.

The Scottish anthropologist Sir Arthur Keith had built his long and distinguished career on the Piltdown fossil. When it was exposed it sent Darwinians scrambling, Arthur Keith had always rejected the Taung Child (Raymond Dart’s discovery) a chimpanzee child. Rightfully so since it’s small even for a modern chimpanzee. Keith would eventually apologized to Dart and Leakey would take his suggested name for the stone age ape man, Homo habilis, but there was a very real problem. The skull was too small to be considered a human ancestor, this impasse became known as the Cerebral Rubicon and Leakey’s solution was to simply ignore the cranial capacity.

"Sir Arthur Keith, one of the leading proponents of Piltdown Man, was particularly instrumental in shaping Louis's thinking. "Sir Arthur Keith was very much Louis's father in science" noted Frida. Brilliant, yet modest and unassuming, Keith was regarded at the time of Piltdown's discovery as England's most eminent anatomist and an authority on human ancestry...a one man court of appeal for physical anthropologists from around the world....and his opinion that assured Piltdown a place on every drawing of humankinds family tree." (Ancestral Passions, Virginia Morell)​

Ever notice that there are no Chimpanzee ancestors in the fossil record? That’s because every time a gracial (smooth) skull, that is dug up in Asian or Africa they are automatically one of our ancestors.

Australopithecus afarensis: AL 288-1
Australopithecus africanus: Taung 1
Lucy a Chimpanzee
Taung Skull not Human-like 26 August 2014

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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HitchSlap

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Actually its the other way around. Most atheists think Darwin was a scientist...he was not. Most atheist believe Darwin was the one to (supposedly) discover the ape to man link. But it all came from ancient pagan beliefs.
Have you read Rachael Stott’s book?
 
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mark kennedy

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LMGTFY

The first convincing chimp fossil has been discovered by scientists.

Unlike our human ancestors, whose fossil remains are relatively plentiful, chimps have always been conspicuously absent from the fossil record. Many experts doubted such specimens could exist because most chimps live in the rain forests of West and central Africa where acidic soil and high rainfall levels hamper fossil preservation.

Early humans, on the other hand, lived in areas more arid areas conducive to fossil preservation but relatively hostile to chimp survival, such as the East Africa Rift Valley. “It’s the last place you’d expect to find chimps,” says anthropologist Jay Kelley of the University of Illinois at Chicago, US.
But we do have chimpanzee skulls, Lucy and the Taung Child. That was a few teeth BTW.
 
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mark kennedy

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You are changing the goalpost - we were talking about the increases of cranial capacity in the homo genus that took place the last 2 million years.

Chimps and humans split into seperate evolutionary branches as long as 7 million years ago.

Comparing extant humand and chimp skulls to make a point, is also dishonest, since the chimp has been on its own evolutionary path seperate for humans for the past 7 million years.

The human brain isn't "more evolved" that the chimp brain, in that sense.
Another common mistake in people arguing against evolution.
The goal posts don't change, it's whether of not the human brain could have evolved from that of apes.
 
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pitabread

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Don't confuse the theory of evolution with Darwinism because they are not the same thing. Evolution is a phenomenon in nature while the Darwinian tree of life is a mythology, plain and simple. The two have little to do with one another.

Also, don't confuse your private definition of "Darwinism" with the way everyone else understands the term.
 
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Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
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The goal posts don't change, it's whether of not the human brain could have evolved from that of apes.
you look silly continually repeating that. Humans, genus Homo , ARE great apes . That question has been settled for about 2 decades . Unless you you have some verifiable evidence that they aren’t and if you do, please publish . Your arrogant assertions without evidence are getting tiresome
 
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Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
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But we do have chimpanzee skulls, Lucy and the Taung Child. That was a few teeth BTW.
Lucy and Taung child are both Australopithecus which mean they aren’t in the chimp lineage as they both walk upright
 
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Strathos

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And your point is supposed to be what?

My guess is that, even though YOU ARE alive today, your knowledge of biology is probably far less than Darwins knowledge was, even though Charles Darwin new nothing about DNA & all the fossils that have been discovered since that has proved his theory beyond doubt.

That if Darwin was never born the things he discovered would still have been discovered by someone else.
 
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lasthero

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That if Darwin was never born the things he discovered would still have been discovered by someone else.
In fact, that almost happened. If I recall correctly, Darwin sat on his findings, right until he learned someone else was about to publish similar conclusions.
 
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