490 years Daniel 9 - my chart

[Douggg]

You need to prove the gap or admit you cannot. I would throw the sponge in too and start over.

Dave, do you see everlasting righteousness as characterizing the world we live in ? You believe Jesus is the messiah, so you have to believe that parts of Daniel 9 have been fulfilled.

But the part of everlasting righteousness brought in is still future - at the time of Jesus's return. Which means there must be a gap in the 490 years prophecy.

 

[DavidPT]

One mistake many are making is, not interpreting Daniel 9:27 in light of Daniel 11. One reason is because that's what past Commentators taught them, that nothing in Daniel 11 is connected with anything in Daniel 9:27.


In Daniel 9:27 the Hebrew word for covenant is briyth, and that it is found in the following verses in Daniel. Which to me means that someone is trying to tell us something here, but to someone else it's only a coincidence, thus not actually connected in any way.

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant(briyth) and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant(briyth) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant(briyth).
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Daniel 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant(briyth); and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant(briyth): so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant(briyth).
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant(briyth) shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, do you see everlasting righteousness as characterizing the world we live in ? You believe Jesus is the messiah, so you have to believe that parts of Daniel 9 have been fulfilled.

But the part of everlasting righteousness brought in is still future - at the time of Jesus's return. Which means there must be a gap in the 490 years prophecy.

If you were rooted in historic Christianity and understood the basics, most of what you think would go away. You need to know these things first and then dabble with chart making. You have a fairly new Jesuit version of Christianity meant to deceive the Lutherans and Reformed in the wake of the Reformation. And no matter how you dress it up, it won't make sense to anyone grounded in historic doctrine that condemned Premillennialism as heresy by the early church.

 

[BABerean2]

One mistake many are making is, not interpreting Daniel 9:27 in light of Daniel 11. One reason is because that's what past Commentators taught them, that nothing in Daniel 11 is connected with anything in Daniel 9:27.

The following is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

============================================

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

====================================

The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28, as explained below by Dr. Kelly Varner.

Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

See Hebrews 10:16-18 for the answer.


.

 

[klutedavid]

No and no. It's a cousin and her husband, who was raised SDA. But I also read the book The Two Babylons very long ago so I know what they are talking about. But I was not raised Christian.

The Two Babylons, subtitled Romanism and its Origins, is a religious pamphlet published in 1853 by the Presbyterian Free Church of Scotland theologian Alexander Hislop (1807–65).(wikipedia)

Jehovah's Witnesses' periodical The Watchtower frequently published excerpts from it until the 1980s.

Don't tell me the SDA are reading the Two Babylons also?

 

[jgr]

Dave, do you see everlasting righteousness as characterizing the world we live in ? You believe Jesus is the messiah, so you have to believe that parts of Daniel 9 have been fulfilled.

But the part of everlasting righteousness brought in is still future - at the time of Jesus's return. Which means there must be a gap in the 490 years prophecy.

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you possess the foregoing righteousness today?

I certainly hope so, otherwise you're still in your sin.

Does everyone who receives Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, possess this righteousness today?

Is it temporary righteousness, or is it everlasting righteousness?

If it's temporary righteousness, when does it end?

Since it doesn't end, it has to be everlasting righteousness.

The righteousness of which Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:24.

 

[mkgal1]

KJV
DANIEL CHAPTER 9 KJV

The KJV differs from your version of "the Most Holy Place". Instead the KJV has "to anoint the Most Holy". A person.

In CG's chart, it assumes to anoint the Most Holy, because it takes the dove lighting on Jesus at his baptism. Not the anointing of the Most Holy Place.

.

I'm referring to your comment about the wall. This is what Bible Hub shows as the King James Version. Where are you getting the verbiage from about a wall in Daniel?:
"for your people and your holy city"

Edited: I see it now.

 

[DavidPT]

The following is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

============================================

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

====================================

The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28, as explained below by Dr. Kelly Varner.

Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

See Hebrews 10:16-18 for the answer.


.

If Daniel 11:21-45 is meaning post Christ's death and resurrection, would there be any reason the holy covenant in those verses might not mean the same covenant you are referring to? If those verses were referring to the time of AE4, it would be different, since those verses wouldn't be meaning the same covenant you are referring to, in that case.

 

[Douggg]

I'm referring to your comment about the wall. This is what Bible Hub shows as the King James Version. Where are you getting the verbiage from about a wall in Daniel?:
"for your people and your holy city"

Edited: I see it now.

What about the issue of the Most Holy Place or the Most Holy ?

 

[Douggg]

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you possess the foregoing righteousness today?

I certainly hope so, otherwise you're still in your sin.

Does everyone who receives Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, possess this righteousness today?

Is it temporary righteousness, or is it everlasting righteousness?

If it's temporary righteousness, when does it end?

Since it doesn't end, it has to be everlasting righteousness.

The righteousness of which Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:24.

I don't think you answered the question of...

do you see everlasting righteousness as characterizing the world we live in ?

This world is full of violence.

 

[BABerean2]

I don't think you answered the question of...

do you see everlasting righteousness as characterizing the world we live in ?

This world is full of violence.

Are you talking about the life of Christians, or the life of unbelievers?

If the things that happen in your home are the same things that happen in the homes of unbelievers, then you cannot be a believer.

.

 

[Douggg]

Are you talking about the life of Christians, or the life of unbelievers?

If the things that happen in your home are the same things that happen in the homes of unbelievers, then you cannot be a believer.

.

I am talking about the condition of the world.

 

[jgr]

I don't think you answered the question of...

do you see everlasting righteousness as characterizing the world we live in ?

This world is full of violence.

I don't think you answered the question of...

Is the righteousness of which Paul wrote, everlasting righteousness?

The believer's life is full of peace.

 

[Douggg]

I don't think you answered the question of...

Is the righteousness of which Paul wrote, everlasting righteousness?

in Jesus, we also have eternal life.

jgr, the point I am making is that there must be a gap in the 490 years prophecy because eternal righteousness is now the condition of the world because Jesus has not returned yet. And the 7 year 70th week preceeds and ends with Jesus's return.

 

[mkgal1]

What about the issue of the Most Holy Place or the Most Holy ?

To me, it doesn't matter whether it reads as "Most Holy" or "Most Holy place" because what's meant (IMO) is a reference to where God met with His people. In the Old Covenant, that was in the Holy of Holies.

A new "temple" was being formed in the New Covenant. God was dwelling within the hearts of His followers. Christ was the chief cornerstone.

Isaiah 28:16, "Therefore this says the Lord God: 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation. '"


Matthew 21:42 ~ Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

 

[DavidPT]

I am talking about the condition of the world.

Once Christ returns do you think there will be everlasting righteousness brought in at that time? And do you think there is any other form of righteousness that can trump everlasting righteousness? I have a reason I am asking this. Once you answer this, assuming you do, I will then tell you the reason I asked this to begin with.

 

[Douggg]

To me, it doesn't matter whether it reads as "Most Holy" or "Most Holy place" because what's meant (IMO) is a reference to where God met with His people. In the Old Covenant, that was in the Holy of Holies.

....anoint the Most Holy Place (in the translation you are using). Was not the temple anointed the Most Holy Place before Jesus was born ?

What you wrote above implies a place - not a person. CG's chart however implies a person - the anointing of Jesus when the dove landing on him at the time of his baptism by John in the wilderness. So it appears to me that you disagree with CG's chart, which you have been posting.

My chart is right because Jesus was anointed by the woman in Bethany. Anointed for his burial. Which applies to the messiah being cutoff.

Mark 14:8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

 

[mkgal1]

in Jesus, we also have eternal life.

jgr, the point I am making is that there must be a gap in the 490 years prophecy because eternal righteousness is now the condition of the world because Jesus has not returned yet. And the 7 year 70th week preceeds and ends with Jesus's return.

This wasn't referring to an eradication of sin. Prior to the New Covenant, there was only a system of covering sin. The New Covenant and Jesus death on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice brought in a system of forgiveness that makes a sinner righteous in God's eyes.

 

[Douggg]

This wasn't referring to an eradication of sin. Prior to the New Covenant, there was only a system of covering sin. The New Covenant and Jesus death on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice brought in a system of forgiveness that makes a sinner righteous in God's eyes.

Does everlasting righteousness characterize the world we presently live in ?

If not, there must be a gap in the 490 year prophecy.

 

[mkgal1]

Was not the temple anointed the Most Holy Place before Jesus was born ?

Which temple are you referring to?

There was a great shift going on in Jesus's ministry. The old temple became obsolete and desolate (in need of being torn down due to the corruption). But Jesus was "building " a new Temple. It was the anointing of the NEW Holy place that's referred to in Daniel. It isn't literally a place....but the hearts of people (His followers), so I don't have a problem with versions that just say "most Holy".