40 Questions

[Confused-by-christianity]

Does God grade us on a curve, or PASS/FAIL ?

Saint Steven said: ↑
If we are called to become more like God, but yet we can’t understand his justice, how can we ever strive to reflect his true character?

I don't know what God does (how he grades us).

I think of God as a father - a good one. I think of us as His sons / daughters / children.
I think He likes us and is amused by us. I think He has a pretty good sense of humour and probably thinks we take ourselves too seriously.

A good father sits and chats with his son, teaches him stuff, helps him deal with problems in life and gives good advice / builds you up and makes you good at things for your own edification and for the benefit of others as well.

My thoughts are:
I should treat others as God treats me.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Yes, it's hard work, isn't it?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Is the only purpose of this present life to make it into heaven?

Yeah haha

You start laying out what you think and the more you talk the more problems in your worldview you have to solve hahaha

 

[hedrick]

That's pretty funny.
But isn't that the case in the standard doctrine. The wide gate that leads to destruction?

Saint Steven said: ↑
If the majority of the world won’t be saved because of the work of the enemy, then doesn’t Satan win? Why would God allow this if He is “all-powerful” and “all- knowing”?

I think the only alternative that makes sense is the Calvinist one: God doesn't save everyone because God never intended to. Of course that raises other questions.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

The Bible is unclear on that point. But I agree with you. What does the Bible say about the Canaanites in the promised land? Coexist or kill them all?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does God operate on a completely different moral scale than us? (His evil is our good, our good is his evil)..

Yeah I don't know.

God in those days seems so different from the God I think I know.

In one sense the whole earth is in constant state of warfare - on the other hand - human warfare seems clearly evil.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't know what God does (how he grades us).

I think of God as a father - a good one. I think of us as His sons / daughters / children.
I think He likes us and is amused by us. I think He has a pretty good sense of humour and probably thinks we take ourselves too seriously.

A good father sits and chats with his son, teaches him stuff, helps him deal with problems in life and gives good advice / builds you up and makes you good at things for your own edification and for the benefit of others as well.

My thoughts are:
I should treat others as God treats me.

Wise words.

I think many forget that God is our Father. That's everyone's Father.
And he is the model for human fatherhood. (not an angry volcano god)
We are always welcome in his presence.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I think the only alternative that makes sense is the Calvinist one: God doesn't save everyone because God never intended to. Of course that raises other questions.

Where did your faith come from?

Have you got any beliefs about God that you are unwilling to compromise?

e.g. I may be able to accept that God didn't intend to save everyone, but, I cannot accept God is not good. I'd have to say that I don't know what "good" is.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Wise words.

I think many forget that God is our Father. That's everyone's Father.
And he is the model for human fatherhood. (not an angry volcano god)
We are always welcome in his presence.

What do you think? How do you answer a lot of those questions?

 

[cfposter]

I think the only alternative that makes sense is the Calvinist one: God doesn't save everyone because God never intended to. Of course that raises other questions.

God says He desires none to be lost. God gets what He desires ultimately.

 

[Hammster]

God says He desires none to be lost. God gets what He desires ultimately.

He doesn’t really say that.

 

[cfposter]

He doesn’t really say that.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Hammster]

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Why do you assume that “any” is referring to all of humanity? What in the context of the letter leads you to that conclusion?

 

[cfposter]

Why do you assume that “any” is referring to all of humanity? What in the context of the letter leads you to that conclusion?

Saying the word "assume" is a strawman. I don't assume it.
I think the context is pretty clear on this. It talks about the situations of ungodliness and even when the Floods came and is consistently putting the world in context. The ANY is ALL MEN.

 

[hedrick]

Where did your faith come from?

Have you got any beliefs about God that you are unwilling to compromise?

e.g. I may be able to accept that God didn't intend to save everyone, but, I cannot accept God is not good. I'd have to say that I don't know what "good" is.

Apologies. I was unclear. I meant that in the context of a discussion about most people going to hell and an omnipotent God. Given that combination, I think only Calvinism makes sense. However I doubt that most people are going to be condemned, I doubt a hell consisting of eternal torment, and I’m at least willing to consider something like open theism.

 

[hedrick]

Apologies. I was unclear. I meant that in the context of a discussion about most people going to hell and an omnipotent God. Given that combination, I think only Calvinism makes sense. However I doubt that most people are going to be condemned, I doubt a hell consisting of eternal torment, and I’m at least willing to consider something like open theism.

The biggest problem with salvation is that the NT doesn't actually describe the process in enough detail to answer many of our questions. The Bible ends up kind of like a Rorschach ink blot, with people reading their own views into the text.

There are some things that I think are obvious: Jesus is clear that we will be accountable. But I think much of his talk about judgement is actually aimed at Christians, not outsiders. He also talks about people being judged more and less severely. I'm convinced he doesn't talk about eternal torment, but it seems that he does think people can be destroyed.

It's also worth noting that Jesus doesn't seem to see his main purpose as to save people from hell. His main purpose is to establish the Kingdom. People will be accountable for how they respond, but I think Christianity has a different feel to it when its main goal is for me to avoid hell and when its main goal is for me to enter the Kingdom now, and act as Christ's representative in reconciling others, even though in the end God will look at how I responded to that call.

I also don't buy the traditional idea of original sin, which seems to be that we start out damned and have to do something to be saved. That seems to contradict Jesus picture of God as a loving Father. We don't need to do something to get his love. However I very much fear that we can reject it, and it looks like some do.

 

[cfposter]

I also don't buy the traditional idea of original sin, which seems to be that we start out damned and have to do something to be saved. That seems to contradict Jesus picture of God as a loving Father. We don't need to do something to get his love. However I very much fear that we can reject it, and it looks like some do.

Looking at your comment that you don't believe in original sin. Original sin is the reason that Jesus had to be born of a virgin. He couldn't be born of the same seed by which the curse falls. In other words, the redeemer couldn't be someone who also needed a redeemer.

Original Sin is the reason that John says if we say we have no sin we lie.

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin is the only means by which Death can come upon someone. A baby couldn't die at birth without having sin. The condemnation is upon the body of Adam. Therefore, those of Adam are cursed. Those of the body of Christ are under Mercy from that curse.

 

[hedrick]

Looking at your comment that you don't believe in original sin. Original sin is the reason that Jesus had to be born of a virgin. He couldn't be born of the same seed by which the curse falls. In other words, the redeemer couldn't be someone who also needed a redeemer.

That has a pretty serious problem. If he didn't inherit normal human nature, then the incarnation isn't real, and he can't help us.

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I am not making the ridiculous statement that we are without sin, just that we don't start out damned. Righteousness in the Bible not something we have to earn by being perfect. That's one of Paul's major points. People are called righteous when they re part of God's people, and repent. But Paul casts the net of God's people pretty wide in Rom 2.

 

[Saint Steven]

What do you think? How do you answer a lot of those questions?

I'm a Universalist, so they don't really apply to my beliefs.

Or I actually prefer Ultimate Redemption. Or the other ones are Universal Reconciliation, or even Universal Restoration. (all UR)

Let me know if there are specific ones you want me to address.

 

[cfposter]

That has a pretty serious problem. If he didn't inherit normal human nature, then the incarnation isn't real, and he can't help us.

Jesus was human and tempted in all ways as we are. He just wasn't born of Adam's seed. This is not my opinion that He was not born of Adam seed. The Bible is clear that Joseph didn't "know" Mary. Which is to say they hadn't had sex.

I am not making the ridiculous statement that we are without sin, just that we don't start out damned. Righteousness in the Bible not something we have to earn by being perfect. That's one of Paul's major points. People are called righteous when they re part of God's people, and repent. But Paul casts the net of God's people pretty wide in Rom 2.

Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

 

[hedrick]

Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

My first thought was that was an insult by Jesus' enemies, possibly based on his rumored birth out of wedlock. However I note that the two commentaries I checked understand it as directed against the man born blind, on the usual assumption that that kind of damage was due to sin of the parents.

 

[Saint Steven]

My first thought was that was an insult by Jesus' enemies, possibly based on his rumored birth out of wedlock. However I note that the two commentaries I checked understand it as directed against the man born blind, on the usual assumption that that kind of damage was due to sin of the parents.

Earlier in the chapter we find this. Although, Jesus' response doesn't answer the question.

John 9:2 NIV
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”