SabbathBlessings

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So is free will only applicable to belief rather than action?

I guess for me I cannot attribute any aspect of my salvation to myself, given the mess I was in.

Further more when we give our lives to Christ and ask Him to take control it is from that point Thy Will Be Done.
All actions are formed through our thoughts. The point of Thy Will Be Done is allowing the Holy Spirit in your life, but not everyone chooses to listen.

This is how you can verify you are following the Holy Spirit

Isaiah 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

You cannot walk in God's Spirit by disobeying. God will give the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins so you can walk in His Spirit John 16:7-11
 
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Carl Emerson

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All actions are formed through our thoughts. The point of Thy Will Be Done is allowing the Holy Spirit in your life, but not everyone chooses to listen.

This is how you can verify you are following the Holy Spirit

Isaiah 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

You cannot walk in God's Spirit by disobeying. God will give the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins so you can walk in His Spirit John 16:7-11

Like I have said before - the end result of your thesis is that only SDA are saved.

I see Jesus working on a much broader front and my attempts to point out scriptures that affirm this are falling in deaf ears.

You have a nice tidy theology but is judges the saints who are not party to your opinions.

And you will say it is Gods word and not yours.

And the early church fathers that were taught by Paul did not gather on Saturday - but then I guess you will say they were deceived by then...

Please enjoy the degree of faith you have been given and I will enjoy mine - according to Romans 14 we should leave it at that. We both serve as unto the Lord.

I hear from Him regularly so He is well able to bring correction when needed.

I hope this applies to you as well...
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Like I have said before - the end result of your thesis is that only SDA are saved.

I see Jesus working on a much broader front and my attempts to point out scriptures that affirm this are falling in deaf ears.

You have a nice tidy theology but is judges the saints who are not party to your opinions.

And you will say it is Gods word and not yours.

And the early church fathers that were taught by Paul did not gather on Saturday - but then I guess you will say they were deceived by then...

Please enjoy the degree of faith you have been given and I will enjoy mine - according to Romans 14 we should leave it at that. We both serve as unto the Lord.

I hear from Him regularly so He is will able to bring correction when needed.

I hope this applies to you as well...


This is your belief not mine. God's Sabbath is not SDA it is a commandment of God. Exodus 20:8-11 God views all His commandments the same, if you break one you break them all, so an SDA could be keeping Sabbath, but placing money or something else above God and is breaking a commandment by worshipping other gods.

It's not my place to judge, only God can do that through His righteous judgement. From scripture He bases it on our knowledge. I have scriptures I will post later when I have more time.

There is no scripture in the entire bible that shows the first day is holy or God's new Sabbath. The disciples kept the Sabbath, just like Jesus did. You can read all about it in the NT. I challenge you to find one scripture where Jesus tells us that the 4th commandment is abolished and to now worship Him on the first day. There is nothing in scripture, this event happened outside of scripture and is a commandment of the Catholic church, not a commandment of God. There is no scriptural authority for this change.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Should we follow man or God?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.

Please be specific about when this happened... what year?
 
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Danthemailman

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Like I have said before - the end result of your thesis is that only SDA are saved.
I hear it so often from people that you had better be a member of THEIR church because ONLY their church is the TRUE church and salvation is found ONLY in THEIR church by following THEIR specific rules and regulations that they claim are GOD'S rules and regulations. Multiple churches with CONFLICTING rules and regulations to be saved CANNOT all be right. We need to be careful, because there are multiple false religions and cults in the world masquerading around as Christian churches.

*Not pointing fingers at any specific group. Just saying.*

God saves us individually. "Whoever" believes in Him.. (John 3:16; Acts 10:43). Believers make up the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:18,24). There are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those churches, but those who truly believe the gospel [and not just whatever those churches teach] are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel and if one believes the gospel, then one is saved (Romans 1:16) but if one does not believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) then one is lost even though the official teaching of the church they attend is correct.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Please be specific about when this happened... what year?
From Sabbathtruth.com

Today I want to answer the question which so many listeners have been concerned about since our first broadcast on the Sabbath question. How did the change take place, substituting Sunday for Saturday as the day of worship? This is possibly one of the most disturbing religious questions among thinking Christians today. Unfortunately, the issue is not examined publicly very often for reasons that we’ll consider today. But multitudes have wondered when, how and why the change came about. We have established in previous broadcasts that the Bible itself speaks with absolute consistency on this subject.

No Change Documented in the Bible
In both Old and New Testament there is not a shadow of variation in the doctrine of the Sabbath. The seventh day, Saturday, is the only day ever designated by the term Sabbath in the entire Bible. Not only was Jesus a perfect example in observing the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, but all His disciples followed the same pattern after Jesus had gone back to heaven. Yet no intimation of any change of the day is made. The apostle Paul, who wrote pages of counsel about lesser issues of Jewish and Gentile conflicts, had not one word to say about any controversy over the day of worship. Circumcision, foods offered to idols, and other Jewish customs were readily challenged by early Gentile Christians in the church, but the weightier matter of weekly worship never was an issue. Why? For the simple reason that no change was made from the historic seventh day of Old Testament times, and from creation itself. Had there been a switch from the Sabbath to the first day of the week, you can be sure the controversy would have been more explosive than any other to those Jewish Christians.

History Gives Some Clues
If the change did not take place in the Scriptures or through the influence of the apostles, when and how did it happen? In order to understand this, we must understand what happened in that early church soon after the apostles passed off the stage of action. Paul had prophesied that apostasy would take place soon after his departure. He said there would be a falling away from the truth. One doesn’t have to read very far in early church history to see just how that prophecy was fulfilled. Gnosticism began to rise up under the influence of philosophers who sought to reconcile Christianity with Paganism. At the same time, a strong anti-Jewish sentiment became more widespread. Very speculative interpretations began to appear regarding some of the great doctrines of Christ and the apostles.

The Conversion of Constantine
constantine.jpg
By the time Constantinewas established as the emperor of Rome in the early fourth century, there was a decided division in the church as a result of all these factors. I think most of you know that Constantine was the first so-called Christian emperor of the Roman Empire. The story of his conversion has become very well known to students of ancient history. He was marching forth to fight the battle of Milvian Bridge when he had some kind of vision, and saw a flaming cross in the sky. Underneath the cross were the Latin words meaning “In this sign conquer.” Constantine took this as an omen that he should be a Christian, and his army as well. He declared all his pagan soldiers to be Christians, and became very zealous to build up the power and prestige of the church. Through his influence great blocks of pagans were taken into the Christian ranks. But, friends, they were still pagan at heart, and they brought in much of the paraphernalia of sun-worship to which they continued to be devoted. We mentioned in a previous broadcast about the adoption of Christmas and Easter into the church. At the same time, many other customs were Christianized and appropriated into the practice of the church as well.

Sun Worship
You see, at that time the cult of Mithraism or sun-worship was the official religion of the Roman Empire. It stood as the greatest competitor to the new Christian religion. It had its own organization, temples, priesthood, robes—everything. It also had an official worship day on which special homage was given to the sun. That day was called “The Venerable Day of the Sun.” It was the first day of the week, and from it we get our name Sunday. When Constantine pressed his pagan hordes into the church they were observing the day of the sun for their adoration of the sun god. It was their special holy day. In order to make it more convenient for them to make the change to the new religion, Constantine accepted their day of worship, Sunday, instead of the Christian Sabbathwhich had been observed by Jesus and His disciples. Remember that the way had been prepared for this already by the increasing anti-Jewish feelings against those who were accused of putting Jesus to death. Those feelings would naturally condition many Christians to swing away from something which was held religiously by the Jews. It is therefore easier to understand how the change was imposed on Christianity through a strong civil law issued by Constantine as the Emperor of Rome. The very wording of that law, by the way, can be found in any reliable encyclopedia. Those early Christians, feeling that the Jews should not be followed any more than necessary, were ready to swing away from the Sabbath which was kept by the Jews.

Historical Accounts
Some of you may be greatly surprised by the explanation I’ve just made, and I’m not going to ask you to believe it blindly. I have before me a multitude of authorities to verify what has been said. Here are historians, Catholics and Protestants, speaking in harmony about what actually took place in the fourth century. After Constantine made the initial pronouncement and legal decree about the change, the Catholic Church reinforced that act in one church council after another. For this reason, many, many official statements from Catholic sources are made, claiming that the church made the change from Saturday to Sunday. But before I read those statements I shall refer to one from the Encyclopedia Britannica under the article, Sunday. Notice: “It was Constantine who first made a law for the proper observance of Sunday and who appointed that it should be regularly celebrated throughout the Roman empire.” Now you can check these statements in your own encyclopedias or go to the library and look into other historical sources.

Here is a statement from Dr. Gilbert Murray, M.A., D.Litt., LLD, FBA, Professor of Greek at Oxford University, who certainly had no ax to grind concerning Christian thought on the Sabbath question. He wrote: “Now since Mithras was the sun, the Unconquered, and the sun was the Royal Star, the religion looked for a king whom it could serve as a representative of Mithras upon earth. The Roman Emperor seemed to be clearly indicated as the true king. In sharp contrast to Christianity, Mithraism recognized Caesar as the bearer of divine grace. It had so much acceptance that it was able to impose on the Christian world its own sun-day in place of the Sabbath; its sun’s birthday, the 25th of December, as the birthday of Jesus.” History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge.

Looking a bit further into historical statements, Dr. William Frederick says: “The Gentiles were an idolatrous people who worshipped the sun, and Sunday was their most sacred day. Now in order to reach the people in this new field, it seems but natural as well as necessary to make Sunday the rest day of the church. At this time it was necessary for the church to either adopt the Gentile’s day or else have the Gentiles change their day. To change the Gentiles day would have been an offense and stumbling block to them. The church could naturally reach them better by keeping their day.” There it is, friends, a clear explanation by Dr. Frederick as to how this change happened. Another statement very parallel to this one is found in the North British Review.

But let’s move on to a statement from the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, p. 153. “The church after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath or seventh-day of the week to the first, made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s day.”

Catholicism Takes Credit for the Change
st-peters-square.jpg
Now a quote from the Catholic Press newspaper in Sidney, Australia. “Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From the beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”

The Catholic Mirror of September 23, 1894, puts it this way: “The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

To point up the claims we’re talking about, I want to read from two Catechisms. First, from the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by Reverend Peter Giermann. “Question: Which is the Sabbath day? Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Second, from Reverend Steven Keenan’s Doctrinal Catechism we read this: “Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept? Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day; a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”

Then from Cardinal Gibbons’ book, The Question Box, p.179, “If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing Saturday with the Jew. Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Catholic Church?”

One more statement taken from the book, The Faith of Millions, p. 473. “But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistency but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.”

That is a most interesting statement, is it not, friends? And it is a very true statement. There is some inconsistency somewhere along the line, because we have examined the statements of history, and you can check them for yourself in any library. I’m not reading anything one-sided here at all. I’ve tried to give you an unbiased picture. Although we have seen the claims made by the Catholic Church in their publications, we are not reading them to cast any reflection upon anyone, by any means. We are simply bringing you a recital of what has been written and what claims have been made.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Then tell me plainly - can those fail to keep the 4th command be saved... Yes or No...
Sin is the transgression of Gods laws. 1 John 3:4 Anyone who has not repented for their sins will not be saved. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

We have a very merciful Savior. True repentance means being truly sorry and turning from our sins. Jesus even gives us a Helper for those who want to obey. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32

God bless!
 
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Carl Emerson

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For me the Sabbath is every day...

I have entered His Sabbath rest... Praise God.

As for the reference to Constantine, (Born 280AD), this is a common error as Church Fathers recorded meeting on resurrection day hundreds of years earlier.

"On the day called Sunday there is a gathering together in the same place of all who live in a given city or rural district. The memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then when the reader ceases, the president in a discourse admonishes and urges the imitation of these good things. Next we all rise together and send up prayers.

When we cease from our prayer, bread is presented and wine and water. The president in the same manner sends up prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people sing out their assent, saying the “Amen.” A distribution and participation of the elements for which thanks have been given is made to each person, and to those who are not present they are sent by the deacons.

Those who have means and are willing, each according to his own choice, gives what he wills, and what is collected is deposited with the president. He provides for the orphans and widows, those who are in need on account of sickness or some other cause, those who are in bonds, strangers who are sojourning, and in a word he becomes the protector of all who are in need.

We all make our assembly in common on Sunday, since it is the first day, on which God changed the darkness and matter and made the world, and Jesus Christ our Savior arose from the dead on the same day. For they crucified him on the day before Saturn’s day, and on the day after (which is the day of the Sun) he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught these things, which we have offered for your consideration."


—First Apology, 67

• Saint Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I hear it so often from people that you had better be a member of THEIR church because ONLY their church is the TRUE church and salvation is found ONLY in THEIR church by following THEIR specific rules and regulations that they claim are GOD'S rules and regulations. Multiple churches with CONFLICTING rules and regulations to be saved CANNOT all be right. We need to be careful, because there are multiple false religions and cults in the world masquerading around as Christian churches.

*Not pointing fingers at any specific group. Just saying.*

God saves us individually. "Whoever" believes in Him.. (John 3:16; Acts 10:43). Believers make up the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:18,24). There are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those churches, but those who truly believe the gospel [and not just whatever those churches teach] are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel and if one believes the gospel, then one is saved (Romans 1:16) but if one does not believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) then one is lost even though the official teaching of the church they attend is correct.
Yet not a single person has said this to you here in this thread or anywhere else in our discussion with you have they Dan? If no one has said or believes these things that your posting here why are you pretending that they have? Your making arguments no one is arguing about. So I think it is best to leave you to argue with yourself. The "other gospel" according to the scriptures is the one that professes to believe God's Word but does not do what Gods' Word says *Matthew 7:21-23. James called this type of faith the faith of devils in James 2:17-26 and we all know the test to know if we know God or not as told us by John in 1 John 2:3-4. Do you believe these scriptures or are you just here to make arguments no one is making?
 
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Guojing

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I know Paul is the favorite to quote to those who want to believe the law is no more. Very few really understand what Paul is saying and take him regularly out of context. Paul did not preach a different Gospel than Jesus or John or James.

My guess is that when you read Galatians 2:7-9, you don't use the KJV there?
 
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BobRyan

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Dear Sabbathblessings,
Christ is the ONLY one who keeps the Law. Mankind cannot. The Law was given to man to prove this point to us and to lead us to Christ. At a time of Christ's choosing, Christ will come to each person who has ever lived and write the Law in their hearts. This is the New Covenant and it is salvation.

The New Covenant is spiritual and not "outward" like the Old Covenant is. The spiritual happens "within" man because that is where our sin problem originates. The Law only attempts to make a person clean on the outside. But in order to be truly clean, we must be cleansed on the inside. This is the work of Christ as I have been stating in my posts. Mankind has no ability to cleanse themselves on the inside.

Only after Christ comes to a person with the Early and Latter Rain and has the Law written in their heart, are they able to keep the commandants. But it is not man who keeps the commandants, it is Christ "in us" who does the keeping.

The Law is summed up by two commandants:

Mat 40:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The temple sacrifices and all that goes along with them (including tithing) ended at the cross BECAUSE it was "fulfilled" by Christ's work on the cross. The remaining portion of the Law, the ten commandants, must still be obeyed and they are obeyed when we love God and love our neighbor. The only exception is the Sabbath Day law.

The Sabbath Day is obeyed when we enter into the "rest" of Christ by "faith". In other words, we no longer have any "works" to perform to be acceptable to God. We are saved by "faith" (which Christ gives us) in the knowledge that Christ will do all the works necessary to restore us to God. That does not mean that we don't have good works or works of faith. But those works are the "works of Christ" He does from "within" us. We are saved by "faith" and the evidence of that faith is good works.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

God "appointest peace to us" when we are "in Christ". This "peace" comes to us because we rest from our "works" (Old Covenant). We walk by the "faith" that Christ is doing all the works necessary for our salvation. Our "works" have become His "works" and Christ never fails. We can now be at peace.

Under the Old Covenant, the Sabbath Day is "outward" and had to be observed in an outward manner. But under the New Covenant, the Sabbath Day is kept "inwardly". We are at rest 24/7 when we are "in Christ". We no longer need to keep the shadow of the Sabbath Day (keeping the Sabbath one day a week). We now keep the fulfillment of the Sabbath Day when we enter into the rest of Christ.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

No longer does man have any works to perform in order to be acceptable to God. Christ is the only one who keeps the Law and is acceptable to God. When we are "in Christ", only then can we keep the Law because Christ keeps it through us.

We keep the Law when Christ writes the Law in our hearts. The Law is spiritual and not outward. We obey the whole Law simply by loving God and loving our neighbor. There is nothing else to keep.

Here is Christ's teaching on when He writes His Law in our hearts:

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He first writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes the Law in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

Here is a verse you quoted:
Mathew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The believers who are rejected are the believers who have only received the Early Rain. They remain under Law. And since they cannot keep the Law, they are said to "practice lawlessness".

In this age, Christ is only coming to His Elect with both the Early and Latter Rain. "Many' are called out, but only a "few" are chosen to be saved at this time. The believers who are rejected are part of the "many" who are not chosen. They will remain under the Law and will be judged by the Law.

I hope what I stated in this post can help you understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to try and answer them.

Joe

Everyone seems to agree that the lost person cannot keep the Law of God as Paul points out in Rom 8:4-11 the lost person does not "submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN he" -

But as you point out - the New Covenant writes God's commandments as known to Jeremiah and his readers - on the heart and mind.

I do not agree with your early vs latter rain example - but that may be another topic.
 
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Everyone seems to agree that the lost person cannot keep the Law of God as Paul points out in Rom 8:4-11 the lost person does not "submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN he" -

But as you point out - the New Covenant writes God's commandments as known to Jeremiah and his readers - on the heart and mind.

I do not agree with your early vs latter rain example - but that may be another topic.

Dear BobRyan,
The Early and Latter Rain is the foundation of the GREAT Mystery of Christ and His church (Eph 5:32) . Very few people understand it. But once a person does, they can see it presented in many portions of scripture. Paul's conversion is the "pattern" and is the most detailed example.

He received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road where he first called Christ "Lord". This is when He was called out from the world. He then had to be "lead by the hand" to Damascus where he laid in bed for "3" days. At that time, he was still blind and would not eat or drink. This "types" his fallen away spiritual condition. The number "3" represents a complete spiritual process (devolution into a Man of Sin). Then after the three days are complete, Paul receives the Latter Rain and goes from being Saul to Paul. This event is the baptism of the Spirit and is the same event that the Apostles received in the upper room.

The Early and Latter Rain is shown in the parable of the 10 Virgins, the Wheat and the Tares, the story of the Woman taken in Adultery, the healing of the blind man in Mark 8:21-25, etc.

A proper understanding of the Early and Latter Rain is essential to understanding how Christ saves His Elect. If you have any interest in learning more about it, look at my past posts where I present it in more detail.
Joe
 
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Dear BobRyan,
The Early and Latter Rain is the foundation of the GREAT Mystery of Christ and His church (Eph 5:32) . Very few people understand it. But once a person does, they can see it presented in many portions of scripture. Paul's conversion is the "pattern" and is the most detailed example.

My understanding of it is that the Early rain is that outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the church at Pentecost and the Latter rain is a future outpouring on the church that happens just before the 7 last plagues at the end of time.
 
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My understanding of it is that the Early rain is that outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the church at Pentecost and the Latter rain is a future outpouring on the church that happens just before the 7 last plagues at the end of time.

Dear Bob,
Yes, that is how most people understand it but that understanding cannot be true.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The "the coming of the Lord" is when Christ comes to an individual with the Latter Rain. It is the "second" time Christ "appears" to mankind. The first time Christ was in the flesh. The second time (Latter Rain) is when He appears spiritually to a believer and that is the point of salvation.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

His Elect are "waiting" for Him because they have received the Early Rain (been Called Out) but need the Latter Rain to be saved. At Christ's first visitation (Early Rain), Christ does not "appear" to the person. They are left spiritually blind (Paul's blindness) and cannot "see" Him. In other words, the Early Rain believer cannot understand the truth. Truth is only revealed at the Latter Rain appearance. This is why there are approximately 2000 different denominations/sects of Christianity. They all have their own version of the truth, but yet, none of them are right. They are truly the places of where the blind lead the blind.

James ends his analogy with "the coming of the Lord draweth nigh". According to mainstream teaching, Christ's second coming is still a future event. How can James say that His coming "draweth nigh" if Christ didn't come within the lifetimes of those He was writing to? Was James mistaken?

The book of Revelation is the great unveiling (appearing) of Christ. The unveiling is an individual appearance because no one can be saved without it. The apostles were first to receive His "appearance and they were saved on the Day of Pentecost. Paul received His appearance in Damascus and was saved at that point. Since that time, there have been a "few" others who have also received the Latter Rain and been saved, too. They are the Elect, the First-Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

The verses below state that Christ's coming is "at hand", just as James believed it was.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:6-7 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which MUST SHORTLY BE DOEN. Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT THE SAYINGS of the prophecy of this book: for the TIME IS AT HAND.

The sayings of this book are NOT sealed because the "time is at hand".

Also, since His second coming is an individual event when a person is saved, then it necessitates that Christ's second coming happens frequently. For this reason, scripture says this:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Christ is, was and will be coming to those believers He has chosen to be saved in this age. Most prophecy in scripture has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled and will be fulfilled in this age. What remains, will be fulfilled in the final age.

Even in Matthew 24, one of the great end-time prophecy chapters in scripture, Christ's second coming has and is being fulfilled within the lives of His Elect of this age. The prophecy of the chapter presents the pathway that leads to conversion for Christ's Elect. Those events were first fulfilled in the upper room to the Apostles and they have been fulfilled to all other Elect since that time. Concerning those events, Christ said this:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation Christ is referring to is the generation of the people He was speaking to. Just a few short years later, all of the prophecy was fulfilled with the conversion of the Apostles. And it is continuing to be fulfilled within the lives of His Elect since that time.

The second coming of Christ is "drawing nigh" and is "at hand" for Christ's Elect who are being saved in this age. They are receiving both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.

For the reasons I have explained above, the Early and Latter Rain events MUST happen individually to a person. The Early and Latter Rain CANNOT be referring to the start of the age and the end of the age. If that were true, no one who lived in between the Early and Latter Rain events could be saved. Why? Because the Rain (Spirit) did not fall during that time and without the Holy Spirit, a person cannot be saved.

Joe
 
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BobRyan said:
My understanding of it is that the Early rain is that outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the church at Pentecost and the Latter rain is a future outpouring on the church that happens just before the 7 last plagues at the end of time.

Because over the history of the Christian church it is easy to see how the early rain launched it at Pentecost and how a Latter rain just before the end - ripens it for the final event.

Dear Bob,
Yes, that is how most people understand it but that understanding cannot be true.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James 5 uses long patience of the farmer in early rain, growth then latter rain and harvest - to inspire the Christian to have faith.

The phrase "The coming of the Lord" - is always about the second coming described in Mat 24, and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and in Rev 19.

1. The Coming of the Lord described by Christ in Matt 24

Matt 24
1.."Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

... 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."



=====================================
The "the coming of the Lord" is when Christ comes to an individual with the Latter Rain.

What text would lead us to that conclusion?

It is the "second" time Christ "appears" to mankind. The first time Christ was in the flesh. The second time (Latter Rain) is when He appears spiritually to a believer and that is the point of salvation.

Then there would have been a lot of "second coming has happened" statements long before Christ ascended to heaven - and after His resurrection.

2 Thess 2 makes a different case
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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Dan 7 says that the coming of Christ would not happen until after the 1260 years of the dark ages that followed the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (4th beast of Dan 7).

And after that fall - there would be a judgment event in heaven and after that judgment completes then we have what is called the second coming.

Dan 7
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel’s Visions Interpreted
15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time. (1260 years)

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given
to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
 
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For me the Sabbath is every day...

1. In the Bible "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
2. In the Bible there no text saying "the Sabbath is every day"
3. In the New Testament we see gatherings on the Sabbath for gospel preaching and in every case it is the 7th day - the same day as the Jews observed. See Acts 13, Acts 17:1-6, Acts 18:4
4. The OT predicts unending Sabbath observance for all mankind - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - in Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down"

As you seem to point out - Justin Martyr is a better source for affirming week-day-1 observance than is the Bible - but he is in fact a recently converted pagan who still mixes pagan references with his doctrine as follows:

" But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday), and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." ( The First Apology of Justin, chapter 67. Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol. 2, pp. 65, 66.)"
======================

Paul says we need not "wait" until the second century to see error springing up.
in Acts 20

25 “And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26 Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
Titus, Jude and John in 3 John all report that error had already sprung up. Long before the 2nd century A.D.
 
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Because over the history of the Christian church it is easy to see how the early rain launched it at Pentecost and how a Latter rain just before the end - ripens it for the final event.

Dear Bob,
You asked:
What text would lead us to that conclusion?

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

To properly understand scripture, it must be rightly divided. The Old Covenant of Law worked on the "outside" of mankind to prove that we cannot ever be good enough to have a relationship with God. When mankind comes to this understanding, it leads us to Christ who will do His work on the "inside" of mankind. The Old Covenant is man's work and it is physical and outward. The New Covenant is Christ's work and it is inward and spiritual. Most of the teachings of Christ should be applied "within" an individual, especially the parables that start off with "the Kingdom of Heaven is like". Remember, the Kingdom of Heaven comes "within you". These parables are teaching on the pathway to salvation. Our salvation (Kingdom of Heaven, Christ) comes to us on the inside so all these parables are to be understood in that manner.

But Christ's spiritual teachings are not limited to the parables. Christ is the Word of God, so everything He said and did teaches a spiritual message:

Here is an example:

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually marred and as a result, he quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth, it represents the time when He first writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes the Law in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out from the world”. But instead of approaching God by our "works" as the Old Covenant required, we are now required to approach Christ by "faith" alone (New Covenant). However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain. At that time, we cannot understand the truth of Christ. Satan takes advantage of our blindness and comes to us masquerading as an Angel of Light (Christ). He quickly and easily deceives us. Because of Satan's deception, we "fall away" from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us and we are not saved.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

To be saved, this must happen individually to us and "within" us.

Here is when Christ heals our spiritual blindness. It happens at the time of the Latter Rain so that we can come out from Satan's deceptions:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

When a believer has "eyes that can see", Christ's teaching in Matthew chapter 24 opens up to them. That chapter teaches the same pathway to salvation that the above two examples do.

The pathway to salvation starts off with Christ coming to an unbeliever and calling them out from the world. This is the Early Rain. They are left spiritually blind and cannot understand the truth of God's Word. Satan then comes to them and "kills" them with his deceptions.

Christ teaches more details on this event here:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Evil spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our worldly false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin.

At this point, Christ will come a "second time" to a believer BUT ONLY IF they are "chosen from the foundation of the world" to be saved in this age. They are His Elect. All other believers will die in their sins and will have to wait to be saved in the final age.

Here is where Paul describes this portion of the pathway leading up to the Latter Rain that you quoted:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

From Satan's deceptions, the fallen away believer devolves into the Man of Sin who sits in God's temple (mankind) claiming to be God (Doctrine of Free Will). When Christ returns to a fallen away believer who is also chosen, Christ heals their spiritual blindness so that they can "see" His coming. Once the believer is healed, they can see that they are the Man of Sin (he is revealed). The Man of Sin is then destroyed by the brightness (revealed truth) of Christ's coming. Christ baptizes them with the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and they are "born again".

This is the pathway to Salvation. It includes both the wide path that leads to destruction (of the Man of Sin) and the Narrow path that leads to life (judgment of the Old Man and maturing of the new babe in Christ).

Joe
 
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