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Futurist Only 4 Riders of the Apocalypse

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jeffwhosoever, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    I could not agree more. I read that the ozone layer is now 1/4 mile thinner than it was just 30 or so years ago. So many things are going down hill. We could soon wind up with a Cat 6 hurricane and much worse storms. Even storms that produce 100 pound blocks of hail like the beginning of the movie "The Day After Tomorrow" except in reality it won't be an isolated freak of nature but divine judgement coming down.
     
  2. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    I do not agree. Look at how John describes the riders in those different parts of Revelation. The first rider is an imposter of Christ. He will deceive many - even the elect if that were possible (and I think it will be possible).

    And why would the Lord ride out with the first 3 riders? Many think they all ride out together, and the other 3 riders are not angels or anything good. Conquest, war, famine, and death all fit together. Jesus does not fit into that group in any way, shape or form. The rider in Chapter 19 is a very different rider - many crowns (vs just being given a crown in Chapter 6). Jesus would not need to be given any crown in John's vision. He already has won, and Chapter 6 doesn't mention a pre-existing crown.
     
  3. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    I have never heard this interpretation before, not to say its wrong but that it seems very original! Is this our own unique perspective or did it come from another church or source or is it your very own concept?
     
  4. Matt5

    Matt5 Answer the question before the lecture.

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    It is my own interpretation which took many years to develop.

    What is a seal? What makes something a seal? Can it be anything I want it to be, or are there rules?

    Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    Rule 1: The seals are shocks that one can clearly see being opened. And by shock I mean the whole world is shocked.

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    Rev 1:3 means that the stuff in Revelation is helpful.

    If it's going to be helpful then I need time to get out of the way. And I need to know when things are going to happen.

    Rule 2: The seals are key markers (shocks) along the entire end-time period.

    The seals have to comply with rules 1 and 2. And it turns out that seal 3 tells you seal 4 is coming shortly. Seal 5 tells you seal 6 is coming shortly. Seal 7 tells you a big shock is coming shortly. Get out of the way.
     
  5. Abraxos

    Abraxos ...

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    What are the Horses of Revelation?

    Zechariah 6:4-5 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?" The angel answered me, These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world."

    Zechariah 1:8-10 During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses. I asked, "What are these, my lord?" The angel who was talking with me answered, "I will show you what they are." Then the man standing among the myrtle trees explained, "They are the ones the LORD has sent to go throughout the earth."

    Zechariah 6:1-3 I looked up again, and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. The first chariot had red horses, the second black, the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful.

    *Chariots may also refer to angels.

    Psalms 18:9-10 He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind.

    (Belief: the two mountains of bronze may indicate the legs of the Messiah - Dan. 10:6, Rev. 1:15)

    In Zechariah 6:5-7 the angel distinguishes the four sets of horses and chariots as the four spirits of heaven. The horses go throughout the four corners of the world as God's agents to bring the gentile world into knowledge and subjection to The Messiah. The dappled horses travel to the south and the black horses go forth to the north; Not clear on the significance though it may suggest some prophetic significance as North and South are indicative of the two kings in Daniel 11.

    When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, the fourth living creature ("like a flying eagle" Rev.4:7, Ezk. 1:10) welcomes the spirit of Judgment from heaven onto the earth. The Rider of the pale horse is given authority over a fourth of the world's population to kill by the sword of Christ's Mouth, and starve them from the Word and their continued disobedience will place them under a curse.

    Malachi 4:5-6 "See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”
    Luke 1:17 “And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

    The "sword" mentioned here is different from the sword the red horse rider carries; it is depicted throughout the NT as the "sword of Christ's mouth or the word of God." So, if this sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía) is in reference to the sword of the Lord's mouth, then it must be concluded that this rider is a servant of God and not an agent of the devil.

    ῥομφαία rhomphaía (hrom-fah'-yah) - NT usage: sword of Christ's mouth, word of God

    (used only 7 times)

    Strong's Greek: 4501. ῥομφαία (rhomphaia) -- a sword, piercing grief

    Luke 2:34-35 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía) will pierce your own soul too.”

    Revelation 1:16 “He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía), and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.”

    Revelation 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, ‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía).’”

    Revelation 2:16 “Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía) of My mouth.”

    Revelation 6:8 And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía), with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

    Revelation 19:15 “Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía), that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

    Revelation 19:21 “And the rest were killed with the sword (ῥομφαία, rhomphaía) which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”

    Additionally, the "wild animals" appear to be not in Christ, yet do honour the LORD.

    Isaiah 43:20 The wild animals of the field shall honour me because I have given waters in the wilderness.

    In summary:
    • The white horse of the Apocalypse represents Victory.
    • The red horse of the Apocalypse represents Revolution.
    • The black horse of the Apocalypse represents Justice.
    • The pale horse of the Apocalypse represents Judgment.
    Note: As you probably have gathered, these four horses from heaven in my view are actually the good guys. It is rather the opposite of the romanticised 'doom and gloom' as depicted by medieval art and traditional denominational doctrine. I'll continue to go into detail on the others in due time.

    I arrived at the same conclusion on Psalm 45. It most definitely is not referring to Jesus as indicated in verse 5.
     
  6. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    Aleluia!!!

    John 17:v.22-23
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    May our LORD God bless us, and keep us, and give us His protection. Amen
     
  7. Ligurian

    Ligurian John 10:16

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    Conquering to and conquer is a god-phrase... this is Jesus.
    Genesis 22:17 surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven,

    War is the 10-horned beast from the pit, Revelation 13:7.
    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

    Famine is the false prophet, Revelation 13:13.
    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Death is the devil come down to Earth with great wrath, Revelation 12:12.
    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    IMO, as of today.
     
  8. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    In 587 B.C. Jerusalem was destroyed, including the Temple built by Solomon, and Daniel was taken captive to Babylon along with all the other prisoners. Only after 49 years (538 B.C.) were they freed in the Medo-Persian reign by King Cyrus.

    Daniel 7:v.1-4-CJB-Complete Jewish Bible
    1 -
    In the first year (556-B.C.)of Belshatzar king of Bavel,(Babylon) Dani’el had a dream and visions in his head, as he was lying on his bed. He wrote the dream down, and this is his account:
    2 - “I had a vision at night; I saw there before me the four winds of the heaven breaking out over the Great Sea;

    Great Sea => sea is waters => waters are peoples , and nations, and multitudes, and tongues; by the way, Gentile nations exclusively. Israel is an island in the middle of the waters, in the middle of the Great Sea; Israel is the clay, its the dry land.

    3 - and four huge animals came up out of the sea, each different from the others.

    Four huge animals each different from the others, it means four different nations/peoples. Each one is different from the others, they are four Gentile different nations/peoples.

    The four huge biblical kingdoms described by the prophet Daniel.
    Details: I
    n fact, one kingdom swallows the other;

    The first huge biblical kingdom destroyed Jerusalem in 587 B.C. and was from 605 - 539 B.C.

    The second huge biblical kingdom swallows the first in 539 B.C. and was from 539 - 330 B.C
    .

    The third huge biblical kingdom swallows the second and what left of the first, and was from 330-146B.C.

    The fourth huge biblical kingdom swallows the third and everything that's left from the first and second kingdoms, and the fourth was divided in two parts (two legs): (1) a western kingdom; and another (2) an eastern kingdom.

    (1) the western kingdom lasted until 476 AD;
    (2) the eastern kingdom until 1453 AD.

    The prophecy of Daniel describes the four huge kingdoms as four animals:
    the FIRST as a lion;
    the SECOND as a bear,
    and the third as a leopard,
    and the fourth as a...what? Isn't there an animal for the fourth kingdom because of how horrible and ugly is the MONSTER of fourth kingdom?

    Daniel 7:v.7- 8 CJB say:

    7 After this, I looked in the night visions; and there before me was a fourth animal, dreadful, horrible, extremely strong, and with great iron teeth. It devoured, crushed and stamped its feet on what was left. It was different from all the animals that had gone before it, and it had ten (10) horns.

    8 “While I was considering the (10) horns, another horn sprang up among them (11th), a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. In this horn (11th horn) were eyes like human eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly.
    (Very interesting these details) ---> The fourth huge biblical kingdom swallows - PLUCKED - the third kingdom and everything that's left from the first and second kingdoms BY THE ROOTS. But who or what is this 11th horn which sprang up among the ten(10) horns? Its no easy to understand, but hard.

    The headquarter of the fourth kingdom was is Rome. The fourth kingdom was the Roman Empire that conquered the third kingdom (leopard) in 146 BC, and later conquered or captured Jerusalem, in 63 BC, and constituted Herod, a Roman vassal king, as ruler of the Land of Israel, from 63 to 4B.C., Israel even under the
    roman dominion, Jerusalem Temple is renovated.

    BIRTH OF JESUS-the promised Messiah-Fulfilment of Daniel 9:v.24
    God sent/sends JESUS and establishes the second covenant, for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting Justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place. Simultaneously, GOD sent/sends Elyjah: Matt.11:12-15-CJB:

    - 30 to 33 Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth after 69 weeks.

    JESUS is killed. JESUS is crucified. Fulfilment of Dan.9:v.26-CJB:

    26 - Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach (Messiah) will be cut off and have nothing.

    The Gospel of the Kingdom of GOD was being preached in the world in the first century after Christ, and the world was being shaken by the Power of God through the preaching of the Gospel, and beginning to trouble even the Roman Empire. The believers in JESUS increased every day forming evangelical communities, and Churches were formed within the Roman Empire, among them the Church of Rome. Paul the Apostle writing to the Church of Rome or to the Romans, said: Rom.1:v.13-

    13 - Brothers, I want you to know that although I have been prevented from visiting you until now, I have often planned to do so, in order that I might have some fruit among you, just as I have among the other Gentiles.

    The Jews who attended Church services in Rome troubled the brethren with their theories and discussions of the Mosaic cult, and Paul in his epistle said that he was being barred from visiting the brethren of the Church in Rome-Rom.1:v.13. In chapter 2 Paul speaks harshly to the Jews, especially in verses 17 to 29.

    In fact, it was the embryo of an apostate movement being born in the Church of Rome, an embryo of Antichrist within the Church of Rome. John in his universal epistle said: 1 John 2:v.18-19:
    18 Children, this is the Last Hour.
    You have heard that an Anti-Messiah is coming; and in fact, many anti-Messiahs have arisen now — which is how we know that this is the Last Hour. 19 They went out from us, but they weren’t part of us; for had they been part of us, they would have remained with us.


    From this apostate, corrupt and satanic environment that began to form and grew in the Church of Rome, led and developed by Jews and other allies in the Church of Rome, the church that was once the Lord's has since now become the throne of Satan, and the Catholic Church was created, later, ROMAN CATHOLIC Church, linked with the demonic government of the Roman Empire that shook, began to persecute believers, even the Apostle Paul was murdered, and also Peter, among many others.

    Israel is linked exclusively to 10 tribes, and they are linked with the Roman Catholic Church since the fundation of the Church of Rome within the TERRIBLE fourth kingdom of Roman Empire, even until the current time, they are allied, but they do not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


    Daniel 2:v.40-43 CJB says:
    40 The fourth kingdom will be as strong as iron. Iron can break anything into pieces, pulverize it and crush it. So just as iron can crush anything, this kingdom will break the other kingdoms into pieces and crush them.
    41 Finally, you saw the feet and toes
    (10 toes of clay/iron - Israel - 10 tribes)made partly of pottery clay and partly of iron; this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the firmness of iron, since you saw the iron mixed with clay from the ground.
    42 Just as the toes of the feet (10 toes of clay/iron - Israel - 10 tribes) were part iron and part clay, this KINGDOM will be partly strong and partly brittle.
    <--- From this alliance of the kingdom between Gentiles(iron-fourth kingdom) and Israel -Jewish people - (the clay) yeah, from this alliance raises up out the little horn, the 11th horn, who is the Man Beast of the earth like a lamb with two horns-Revelation 13:v.11-, symbol of two kingdoms of Israel.
    43 You saw the iron mixed with clay; that means that they will cement their alliances by intermarriages; but they won’t stick together any more than iron blends with clay.

    The Man Beast - Little horn - will manifest himself in near future, he was born decades ago and are walking among the people of Israel in the current time or in this moment.
     
  9. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    Early in my career I was involved with nuclear weapons research. Shock waves do not go very far from the detonation sites sufficient to cover the earth even if every nuke was fired. Radiation is what kills outside a range of mere tens of miles from the epicenter of even a 51 Megaton detonation. Besides nothing in Scripture refers to shocks in each seal. Unless you have access to the classified manual EM-1 then you really can't know.
     
  10. Matt5

    Matt5 Answer the question before the lecture.

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    Ultimately, you can't believe me because the implications are too dire. Isaiah 17 just might happen in weeks. Then what comes is too horrible to even think about. Better just to ignore.

    An earthquake is mentioned in seals 6 and 7. Is that not a shock?

    Shock = sudden bad event, aka breakage.

    How does one open a seal on anything? You break it.

    What about seals 1 to 4? "Come and see" implies there is an event to watch, and that event is not paint drying on the wall. Come and see the great power war between the US, Russia and China in the 4th seal.

    What about the 3rd seal? This is the "paint drying on the wall" seal, except maybe it isn't:

    - The scales (balances) refer to judgement.
    - Oil and wine = Israel. Don't harm Israel.
    - Wheat and barley judgement => Exodus 9:31-32.

    There is a judgement on Israel's neighbors for harming Israel. 75% (3/4) will be obliterated and 25% (1/4) will survive for what they have given (penny) to Israel. Here "given" really means what they have done to Israel.

    Conceptually, this judgement follows a similar format to the writing on the wall judgement in Daniel 5: Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.

    Mene, Mene: announcement of judgement.
    Tekel: you are weighed in the balances.
    Peres: what will happen to you.
     
  11. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    How could implications be less dire? The end of the world by fire is pretty dire, and the divine wrath of God will make our nukes look like BB guns shooting at freight trains.
     
  12. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    Read and meditate on this: Isaiah 33:v.10-14


    10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

    11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

    12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

    13 Hear, ye that are far off (Gentile peoples) , what I have done; and, ye that are near (Jewish people), acknowledge my might.

    14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

    The Everlasting Spirit of GOD is a devouring/a consuming FIRE.

    Be careful or get ready

     
  13. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    Here is my completed assessment of the first 4 riders. I appreciate any feedback and constructive criticism before I present it to my bible study class next Thursday.

    The Four Riders of Revelation Chapter 6

    The First Seal: Conqueror on a White Horse

    6 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come[a]!” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and the one who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

    The Second Seal: War

    3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come[b]!” 4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that people would kill one another; and a large sword was given to him.

    The Third Seal: Famine

    5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come[c]!” I looked, and behold, a black horse, and the one who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A [d]quart of wheat for a [e]denarius, and three [f]quarts of barley for a [g]denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”

    The Fourth Seal: Death

    7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come[h]!” 8 I looked, and behold, [i]an ashen horse; and the one who sat on it had the name Death, and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, and famine, and [j]plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.

    The Fifth Seal: Martyrs

    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O [k]Lord, holy and true, [l]will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.

    The Sixth Seal: Terror

    12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the eminent people, and the commanders and the wealthy and the strong, and every slave and free person hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the [m]sight of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?


    Sources disagree more on the first rider than all the other three put together. One early interpretation was that the first rider was the Lord, coming forth to reap the harvest of believers in the rapture. Most of that interpretation hinges on the fact that this rider is on a white horse which symbolizes purity like the horse that we know for a fact later that John describes Jesus’ riding in Revelation 19: 11-16.

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [e]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [f]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    However, upon closer examination, these two riders are very different. The rider in Revelation chapter 6 does not say he is going forward to rapture the church, but to conquest. This rider joins 3 other riders who are clearly negative figures in that they cause famine, war, and death. Why would the Lord Jesus be a part of this first group of otherwise dreadful riders? Why would the Lord need the judgment of other riders or their support if they were simply rapturing the church, and why would Jesus not be riding with Angels instead of riders of horses that represent terrible events in what sounds like tribulation and the start of the wrath of God, and where does Jesus go after this first group is sent? Does Scripture record the Lord coming back to Heaven with his harvest of Humans? Why would the Lord need to be given a victor’s crown, when later in Revelation 19 he already has multiple Holy Crowns? Why didn’t John spell out that the first rider in Revelation 6 was named Word of God and his robe marked King of Kings and Lord of Lords if this first rider is in fact the Lord Jesus Christ? And why a bow instead of the sword of truth or spirit that the Lord has in Revelation 19? Where are the eyes like flames of fire, a robe dipped in blood, and an army following the Lord in Revelation 6? What purpose does the bow have or represent for the first rider, and why does it differ from the rider in Revelation 19?

    Various sources claim the first rider is someone other than the Lord Jesus Christ, a member of the four riders that fits more logically with that group causing the beginning of tribulation and judgment upon the earth. One scholar thinks the first rider is a counterfeit Christ known as the Anti-Christ whose conquest is part of taking the peace from the earth at the mid-point of the tribulation. Doesn’t this better fit with the other 3 horsemen? And the bow represents that this rider accomplishes his conquest without military victory, signified by the absence of arrows. Another scholar believes the bow represents the plague or pestilence aspect of the destructive force of the initial 4 riders.

    Scholars also disagree on the timing of the release of the 4 riders. Something they are released in the sequence of the seal that is broken one at a time, so the rider on the first white horse proceeds the second rider by some period of time. Others think they all ride as one unit, and that war, pestilence, famine, and death all happen simultaneously as one aggregate judgment to start the great tribulation upon the earth.

    I think the weight of the evidence is against the first rider being the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is more likely this rider is an imposter of the Lord, the Little Horn of Daniel 9:24-27, otherwise known as the Antichrist who after making a the peace treaty with Israel breaks the treaty, marches into Israel and in the rebuilt temple declares himself to be God and thus the Lord begins the pouring out of the wrath of God by after the antichrist attacks Israel and breaks the peace treaty at the midpoint of the 7 years. Then the other riders or symbols of war, famine, pestilence, and death all come to judge the people of the earth who were not believers at the time the church was raptured prior to the first seal being broken. Also, if Jesus was out riding with the first four riders, how could He then be back in heaven to break the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-10?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  14. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    The first rider is given a crown called stephanos, and in Revelation 19 the Lord is wearing diadems (many crowns). Also the first rider has to be given a crown, whereas our Lord already has many crowns. I think the bow with lack of arrows represents an initial political conquest done w/o warfare, at least at first. The only reason I can see for the first rider to be thought of as the Lord is the white horse itself. Is there any other instance of a white horse being ridden by anyone other than Christ anywhere in Scripture?
     
  15. Abraxos

    Abraxos ...

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    Let's unpack this a little bit:

    The meaning of the Bow

    Throughout Scripture, the bow is the symbol of strength to overcome the enemy. While the sword is for close combat, the bow is for attacking from afar to hinder the enemies advance. An archer sees the enemy approaching in the distance, takes account of his movements and his plans, and levels him to the ground before he has the opportunity to attack. The bow is a weapon requiring greater skill than the sword, but it is above all the symbol of strength, for it takes powerful arms and hands to draw a bow and make proper use of it.

    In Jeremiah 49:35 states that The LORD will snap the bow of Elam as a symbolic gesture that He will break Elam's might and power. Another example that bow means strength is seen in Genesis 49:23-24, it reads, "The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him: But his bow abode in strength and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob;

    One of the key reason why the bow is synonymous with strength is that to bend a bow in ancient times, especially one made out of brass takes great might and the poetic expressions in Psalms inference of David's instilled strength. “Thou hast made mine arms a bow of copper.” This test of strength is also comparable to the famous bow of Ulysses—“So the great master drew the mighty bow, And drew with ease.”—Odyssey

    So we can infer that the bow is symbolic of the power and strength that the rider on the white horse has.

    "Bow is written as a rainbow in Hebrew"
    Some argue that the bow represents a rainbow as a bow in Hebrew means "toxon", however, this is a very poor argument as the NT was written in Greek and the word for "bow" and "rainbow" is completely different in Greek. Rev.4:3, and Rev.10:1 utterly debunk this teaching as "rainbow" is referenced twice as "Iris" in Greek.

    "No arrows"
    This is based on the assumption that since no arrows are mentioned it is presupposed to assume there are no arrows. The bow is mentioned 49 times in the Bible, and 42 times it is mentioned without arrows. In common speech, we say "I have a gun" not "I have a gun and bullets", etc; it is the same with the phrase "bent bow" or the mere presence of a bow in war. It is an expression used throughout the Bible and the context remains consistent throughout the bible that the bow is a weapon and a display of strength, which I suspect is the emphasis with the white horse rider.
    Additionally, the rider having arrows or no arrows seems irrelevant and an argument from silence.

    "and he was given a crown"

    There are two Greek words for crown. One is a "diadem" and the other is a "Stephanos." Now a Diadema is a crown with diadems, the crown of a ruler. The other is Stephanos, a wreath type crown, it is worn by a champion, a victor, or by someone who has overcome a great obstacle.

    Where do we see a Diadema being worn in the bible, specifically Revelation? The beast wears a Diadema. Why? Because he is an earthly ruler. This is something all students of eschatology should agree on. Revelation 13:1 "And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns (Diadema), and on his heads a blasphemous name." The red dragon (Rev.12:3) wears seven diadems, it's Greek translation shows that these seven crowns are worn by rulers and kings.

    A Stephanos, the "victor's crown" is only seen in the bible as being worn by believers and those who are victorious in Christ by overcoming the world as he did. From the Stephanos crown, it can be described as: the crown of life; the incorruptible crown; the crown of righteousness; the crown of glory; and the crown of rejoicing; and this heavenly crown can only be given from by the Lord.

    2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is in store for me the Stephanos στέφανος of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a Stephanos στέφανος that will last forever.

    Philippians 4:1 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and Stephanos στέφανος, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends!

    1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the Stephanos στέφανος in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?

    James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the Stephanos στέφανος of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

    1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the Stephanos στέφανος of glory that will never fade away.

    Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor's Stephanos στέφανος

    Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your Stephanos στέφανος

    Revelation 4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns (Stephanos στέφανος) of gold on their heads.

    Revelation 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns (Stephanos στέφανος) before the throne and say:

    Revelation 6:2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a Stephanos στέφανος, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

    Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a Stephanos στέφανος of twelve stars on her head.

    Revelation 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a Stephanos στέφανος of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.


    So we have made a clear distinction between diadem crowns and Stephanos crowns, we can now gain some understanding of the rider on the white horse. The crown he was given is a Stephanos crown meaning that the rider must be a Christian who had just overcome a great obstacle. Furthermore, this man must be of real significance as God has put him aside as not only a servant but as the harbinger of the beginning of the end. This may provide a clue into the identity of the rider.

    "The white horse"

    Specifically, in the book of Revelation as I have already touched on the meaning of horses in the Bible, there are only two other instances of white horses:

    Revelation 19:11 "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice, he judges and wages war."
    Revelation 19:14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."


    A rider on a white horse in Revelation is either the Lord Himself or those that follow Him: Christians. So, the white horse rider must also be a follower of Christ.

    "It's not Jesus, therefore it's Antichrist"
    The view is if it isn't Jesus then it must be Antichrist. A difficult theology to comprehend as its scriptural support is pretty much nonexistent.

    1. A counterfeit white horse (no scriptural basis) ❌
    2. An evil conquerer (no scriptural basis) ❌
    3. A counterfeit Messiah (no scriptural basis) ❌
    4. A bow poses a threat of war (scripturally consistent) ✅
    5. No mention of arrows (scripturally irrelevant unless the bow is taken literally?)❓

    Aside from the bow representing the threat of war, that isn't enough to make the claim that the rider is Antichrist. To me, this view is based more on a preconceived pattern that the only way it will be consistent is that the white horse rider must be Antichrist in order for the doctrine to fit -- basically bending the Word to force-fit a belief.

    “Part of the genius of genuine Christianity is that each generation has to think it through afresh. Precisely because (so Christians believe) God wants every single Christian to grow up in understanding as well as trust, the Christian faith has never been something that one generation can sort out in such a way as to leave their successors with no work to do.
    Like a young man inheriting a vast fortune, such a legacy could just make you lazy. All you’d have to do would be to look things up in the book, or to remember how it was when your favourite pastor used to do it, and that would be it. NO room for character. No room for full human maturity - never mind full Christian maturity.

    Some versions of Christianity are constantly trying to build up that sort of accumulated capital, but it can’t be done.

    The Christian faith is kaleidoscopic, and most of us are colour-blind.

    It is multidimensional, and most of us manage to hold at most two dimensions in our heads at any one time. It is symphonic, and we can just about whistle one of the tunes.
    So we shouldn’t be surprised if someone comes along and draws our attention to other colours and patterns that we hadn’t noticed. We shouldn’t be alarmed if someone sketches a third, a fourth or even a fifth dimension that we had overlooked. We ought to welcome it if a musician plays a new part of the harmony to the tune we thought we knew.” - NT Wright
     
  16. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    The first rider is set on conquest. I'm not sure who the first rider is, but the ones he is riding with represent terrible things like war, famine, and death, so I cannot believe the first rider represents the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether the first rider is the antichrist, or some other force of destruction to be unleashed is TBD, but I cannot see it being the Lord. The description that the same author used in Revelation 19 is in sharp contrast to the rider of Revelation 6. If the first rider were the Lord, I think John would have used similar language, not ambigous terms like rider, set on conquest, being given a crown, and carrying a bow.

    One book I have suggests that to have a bow and not arrows means the first rider starts the process by political power. Another book suggests that the first rider represents death by plague, such as COVID-19. Yet another says the first rider is the antiChrist, the Little Horn of Daniel. Whatever the identity of the first rider, the one thing I cannot see is that being the Lord Jesus. John would have never been so ambiguous and not be clear on the deity of Christ as everything he wrote shines brilliantly including the Gospel of John, John 1-3, and Revelation.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 has no arrows, why are you quoting verses from Psalms45 about arrows?

    The rider on the white horse is the little horn person. He is riding a white horse because the Jews will think he is the messiah following Gog/Magog.

    He has a bow but no arrows because it is God who supernaturally destroys Gog's army. But because the little horn will have staged his EU army in Greece to be a deterrent in hopes to stopping the Gog/Magog attack - but does not actually engage them himself - no arrows, but has a bow - it will appear to the Jews that he intended to defend Israel.

    One of the requirements of the messiah that the Jews are taught (from the RAMBAM) is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel. So it will appear to the Jews in Israel, the intent of the little horn person - meets that criteria.

    The 7 years will begin when the little horn is anointed the King of Israel messiah and has the law read to the nation, from the temple mount. A requirement made by Moses back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The 7 years cycle is in those verses.

    The entire 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still forthcoming because the vision about the little horn and the 2300 days associated with him fit within the 7 years (2520 days).

    The 7 years are also in the infallible timeline framework in Ezekiel 39.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Oseas, everyone in the forum knows what bows and arrows are.

    The rider on the white horse has no arrows. It like having a gun, but no bullets.

    The little horn person destroys many by peace.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    The Jews, Israel, following the Gog/Magog event, will think the little horn is the messiah. The little horn will be anointed the King of Israel (but coming in his own name) making him the Antichrist.

    At that time will be the great falling away in Christianity from believing Jesus is the messiah, as the false messianic age of peace and safety begins, the condition in 1Thesslaonians5, the world saying "peace and safety".


    Peace and safety is on my diagram below...



    upload_2021-6-16_16-3-39.jpeg
     
  19. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    I'm very close to becoming an anytime rapturist because thus far I see too many possible interpretations for the timing and all cannot be right, so it is a mystery that may have to be revealed to us when it actually happens, and not before. It might be why the Lord warned us against trying to guess in the first place.

    Doug do you know of a book we can use for this rapture timing question after we finish the current book on 4 views of Revelation where we are now studying Historicism, Preterism, Idealism and Futurism? I'd a book that is based on Scripture about the possible interpretations for rapture timing that gives a voice to each position assuming a Futurist point of view including at least pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath, and if it fits in with Futurism, also a post-trib rapture? Or anyone else know of such a Scriptural based book written in the view of Futurism that explores the evidence for each interpretation based in the Bible?
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jeff, I really don't know of a book that deals with the rapture question without it trying to prove one of those classical rapture positions of pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib, against the others..

    The reason I resorted to the anytime rapture view is that I saw both merits and shortcomings in each of the classical rapture time positions. The anytime rapture view is the most biblical imo and actually takes from a phrase directly used by Jesus - i.e. "anytime" in Luke 21:34.

    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
     
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