4 Good Reasons Not to Read the Bible Literally

mdseverin

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St. Augustine himself said that if you take what you like from the gospels and reject what you don't like, you arn't realy beliving in the gospels but you are believeing yourself.

I'm not talking about the gospels, I am talking about the Old Testament. I am taking it at face value that these were the stories told to explain God and his creation.

For example Jonah. When I read it, it just sounds like a story. A story to teach a lesson. Jonah is not considered one of the books of history in the Bible, it is categorized as a prophet book. So I take it as spiritual and not historical.

The OT books that I take literal are the historical and law books. But concerning the Mosaic laws, I take a very literal view of Matthew 5:17 that Jesus fulfilled the law. The definition of fulfilled is complete. So if they are complete then they are no longer applied to us. Plus I believe those laws were only for Jews because that is who the first covenant was with and Jesus made a new covenant with us.

Having said that, I believe that even the ten commandments have been fulfilled. I'm taking Jesus at his word. I take Mark 12:28-31 literal so that backs up 9 of the 10 anyway.
 
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mrmccormo

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I'm not talking about the gospels, I am talking about the Old Testament. I am taking it at face value that these were the stories told to explain God and his creation.

For example Jonah. When I read it, it just sounds like a story. A story to teach a lesson. Jonah is not considered one of the books of history in the Bible, it is categorized as a prophet book. So I take it as spiritual and not historical.

The OT books that I take literal are the historical and law books. But concerning the Mosaic laws, I take a very literal view of Matthew 5:17 that Jesus fulfilled the law. The definition of fulfilled is complete. So if they are complete then they are no longer applied to us. Plus I believe those laws were only for Jews because that is who the first covenant was with and Jesus made a new covenant with us.

Having said that, I believe that even the ten commandments have been fulfilled. I'm taking Jesus at his word. I take Mark 12:28-31 literal so that backs up 9 of the 10 anyway.
How do you pick and choose which books are "literal" and which are "spiritual"?

Hmmm, I'mma gonna pick...hmmm...Song of Solomon as "literal" and all of the laws and gospels and epistles as "spiritual". Wooo hooo, elicit sex, here I come!
 
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mdseverin

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Okay, then what are the clear instructions from Jesus on how to be saved? Where are they in the Scriptures? If you come back with "we are to love God and one another", then you believe we must do something to be saved.

The clear instruction is that we are saved by grace through faith. All the verses that you listed earlier make it clear. Jesus also said to love God an one another. It is repeated all through the bible by Jesus and Paul. Are you suggesting the bible is not clear on this? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the question.
 
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mdseverin

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How do you pick and choose which books are "literal" and which are "spiritual"?

Hmmm, I'mma gonna pick...hmmm...Song of Solomon as "literal" and all of the laws and gospels and epistles as "spiritual". Wooo hooo, elicit sex, here I come!

Did you even read what I wrote? I am NOT talking about the New Testament. I also made it clear that I take the Books of History and Law literal.
 
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Luther073082

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I'm not talking about the gospels, I am talking about the Old Testament. I am taking it at face value that these were the stories told to explain God and his creation.

For example Jonah. When I read it, it just sounds like a story. A story to teach a lesson. Jonah is not considered one of the books of history in the Bible, it is categorized as a prophet book. So I take it as spiritual and not historical.

The problem is a book on the prophets needs to be taken at face value because they are stories about what the prophets did. Did the prophet even exist???

The OT books that I take literal are the historical and law books. But concerning the Mosaic laws, I take a very literal view of Matthew 5:17 that Jesus fulfilled the law. The definition of fulfilled is complete. So if they are complete then they are no longer applied to us. Plus I believe those laws were only for Jews because that is who the first covenant was with and Jesus made a new covenant with us.

Having said that, I believe that even the ten commandments have been fulfilled. I'm taking Jesus at his word. I take Mark 12:28-31 literal so that backs up 9 of the 10 anyway.

It is true that there is a new covenenant but a lot of the moral laws from the old covenanant still apply and are a part of the new covenant. Some of the laws no longer apply, such as the dietary laws and the temple laws.

But a lot of your moral laws are still the same. For example Matt 19:16-22 and Mark 10:17-22 can easily be read and Jesus saying "Ten commandments are still in force"

A lot of times the New Testament uses the term sexual immorality which would have at the time been understood to be anything that is not a married man and woman. In fact Paul also tells us that if we are burning in lust we should get married so that we do not sin. (1 Cor 7:8-9)

So you've got some of those laws in effect. . . And you also have new ones like Loving your neighbor and your enemies as well as not divorcing for reasons other then abandonment or adultry.

The NT has law too. . . plenty of it.
 
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Zecryphon

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The clear instruction is that we are saved by grace through faith. All the verses that you listed earlier make it clear. Jesus also said to love God an one another. It is repeated all through the bible by Jesus and Paul. Are you suggesting the bible is not clear on this? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the question.

That's not an instruction, that's a statement of fact. There's a difference. Instructions are given to people who must do something, so that they know how to do it. We are saved by grace through faith, so your earlier statement about Jesus giving us clear instructions on how to be saved is what is confusing. I'm not suggesting that Bible is not clear. Where do you get that from my post? I quoted Scripture to show what the Bible says on how we are saved. I'm making sure you're not a proponent of works-righteousness. I see way too much of that on CF.
 
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Zecryphon

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How do you pick and choose which books are "literal" and which are "spiritual"?

Hmmm, I'mma gonna pick...hmmm...Song of Solomon as "literal" and all of the laws and gospels and epistles as "spiritual". Wooo hooo, elicit sex, here I come!

^_^
 
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DaRev

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But concerning the Mosaic laws, I take a very literal view of Matthew 5:17 that Jesus fulfilled the law. The definition of fulfilled is complete. So if they are complete then they are no longer applied to us. Plus I believe those laws were only for Jews because that is who the first covenant was with and Jesus made a new covenant with us.

Having said that, I believe that even the ten commandments have been fulfilled. I'm taking Jesus at his word. I take Mark 12:28-31 literal so that backs up 9 of the 10 anyway.

Jesus also said to love God an one another. It is repeated all through the bible by Jesus and Paul.

These two statements are contradictory.

Matthew 22:37-40 (ESV)
And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40] On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

These two commandments are the basis of the decalogue. The first is the basis of the first table of the Law and the second of the second table of the Law. Jesus makes it very clear here that these commandments are indeed applicable to us even today. To say that the 10 commandments are no longer applicable contradicts the clear teaching of Christ. He even upholds them in other places within the Gospels. Doesn't sound to me like you are taking Jesus at His word. Do you take the Gospels at face value or are they simply "spiritual" as well?
 
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Criada

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MDIVGRAD

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I read this article on another forum and thought I would post it here for discussion. By posting this I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the author. This is an article that appeared in the Huffington Post. It is written by David Lose who is a professor at Lutheran Seminary, St. Paul, MN.

the first reason it is no good is the author and the school for which he is writing. Anyone who has gone to St. Louis or Fort Wayne in the LCMS will just about pooh pooh anything coming out of this seminary.

4 Good Reasons Not to Read the Bible Literally

Cards on the table: 1) I read the Bible -- not as much as I should, I'm sure, but still pretty regularly. Moreover, I get paid to talk about the Bible with folks all across the country and have written a popular book to help people read the Bible with more confidence and enjoyment. So, you could say, I'm a pretty big fan of the good book. 2) I was a little shocked to discover that three in ten Americans read the Bible literally. That is, about a third of the American populace takes everything the Bible says at face value, reading as they would a history or science textbook. 3) I don't read the Bible this way, and can't imagine doing so. Here are four reasons why:

1) Nowhere does the Bible claim to be inerrant.

That's right. At no place in its more than 30,000 verses does the Bible claim that it is factually accurate in terms of history, science, geography and all other matters (the technical definition of inerrancy). "Inerrant" itself is not a word found in the Bible or even known to Christian theologians for most of history. Rather, the word was coined in the middle of the 19th century as a defensive counter measure to the increased popularity of reading the Bible as one would other historical documents and the discovery of manifold internal inconsistencies and external inaccuracies.

WOW! Seriously? The word Trinity is not in scripture either. Should we, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, declare the understanding of inerrancy wrong because the word "inerrant" is not in scripture?

The signature verse most literalists point to is 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." But one can confess that Scripture is inspired by God without resorting to claims that it contains no factual errors. We normally use the language of inspiration in just this way, describing a painting, a performance of Chopin, or even a good lecture as inspired. What binds the various and sundry texts found in the Bible together may be precisely that they are all inspired by the authors' experience of the living God. There is no hint that the authors of the Bible imagined that what they were writing was somehow supernaturally guaranteed to be factually accurate. Rather, biblical authors wrote in order to be persuasive, hoping that by reading their witness you would come to believe as they did (see John 20:30-31).

2) Reading the Bible literally distorts its witness.

In the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus drives the moneychangers out of the Jerusalem Temple in the days immediately preceding his crucifixion. In the Gospel of John, he does this near the beginning of his ministry, two years before his death. Similarly, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the day Jesus is crucified is named as the Passover, while in John it is the Day of Preparation; that is, the day before Passover. Inconsistencies like this are part of what undermines claims to inerrancy of not just the gospels but also many other books in the Bible.

again, seriously, Each of the Gospel writers, had in mind different audiences or motivations to write to certain groups. Each Gospel writer had his own way of writing. Luke is far more descriptive in his Gospel about some things than Mark or Matthew because he was a physician. His vocabulary in the Greek is far more elaborate than either Matthew or Mark. Matthew was writing his Gospel for the Jews and Mark for the Gentiles about Jesus ministry. John wrote his Gospel, not so much about historical detail, but to tie Jesus to the Heavenly Father and Creation "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." The day of preparation was for the Sabbath not for Passover. Passover was one of the feasts celebrated by the Jews to commemorate what GOd did in Egypt. This guy really needs to read the Bible more carefully.

But if the primary intention of the biblical authors was not to record history -- in the post-Enlightenment sense we take for granted today -- but instead to confess faith, then these differences are not troubling inconsistencies to be reconciled but rather helpful clues to understanding the confession of the author. So rather than ask who got it right, we might instead wonder why John describes these events differently than the other Evangelists. As it turns out, both of these examples stem from John's theological claim that Jesus is the new Passover lamb. For this reason, once he begins his ministry there is no need for Temple sacrifice, and he is crucified on the same day -- indeed, at the exact hour -- at which the Passover lambs were sacrificed on the Day of Preparation.

You can attempt to reconcile these and other discrepancies in the biblical witness, of course, and literalists have published books almost as long as the Bible attempting to do just that. In the case of the different timeframes for the cleansing of the Temple, for instance, one might suggest that Jesus did this twice, once at the beginning of his ministry and then again, for good measure, two years later. But far from "rescuing" the gospels, such an effort distorts their distinct confession of faith by rendering an account of Jesus' life that none of the canonical accounts offers.

3) Most Christians across history have not read the Bible literally.

We tend to think of anything that is labeled "conservative" as being older and more traditional. Oddly enough, however, the doctrine of inerrancy that literalists aim to conserve is only about a century and a half old. Not only did many of the Christian Church's brightest theologians not subscribe to anything like inerrancy, many adamantly opposed such a notion. For instance, St. Augustine -- rarely described as a liberal -- lived for many years at the margins of the church. An impediment to his conversation was precisely the notion that Christians took literally stories like that of Jonah spending three days in the belly of a whale. It was not until Ambrose, bishop of Milan, introduced Augustine to allegorical interpretation -- that is, that stories can point metaphorically to spiritual realities rather than historical facts -- that Augustine could contemplate taking the Bible (and those who read it!) seriously.

The point isn't that pre-modern Christians approached the Bible with the same historically conscious skepticism of the Bible's factual and scientific veracity that modern interpreters possess. Earlier Christians -- along with almost everyone else who lived prior to the advent of modernity -- simply didn't imagine that for something to be true it had to be factually accurate, a concern only advanced after the Enlightenment. Hence, four gospels that diverged at different points, far from troubling earlier Christians, was instead seen as a faithful and fitting recognition that God's truth as revealed in Jesus was too large to be contained by only one perspective. Flattening the biblical witness to conform to a reductionist understanding of truth only limits the power of Scripture. As Karl Barth, arguably the twentieth century's greatest theologian, once said, "I take the Bible too seriously to read it literally."

4) Reading the Bible literally undermines a chief confession of the Bible about God.

Read the Bible even for a little while and you'll soon realize that most of the major characters are, shall we say, less than ideal. Abraham passes his wife off as his sister -- twice! -- in order to save his skin. Moses is a murderer. David sleeps around. Peter denies Jesus three times. Whatever their accomplishments, most of the "heroes of the faith" are complicated persons with feet of clay. And that's the point: the God of the Bible regularly uses ordinary people to accomplish extraordinary things.

Why, then, treat the Bible itself differently? Rather than imagine that the Bible was also written by ordinary, fallible people, inerrantists have made the Bible an other-wordly, supernatural document that runs contrary to the biblical affirmation that God chooses ordinary vessels -- "jars of clay," the Apostle Paul calls them -- to bear an extraordinary message. In fact, literalists unwittingly ascribe to the Bible the status of being "fully human and fully divine" that is normally reserved only for Jesus.

So why, then, would so many people read the Bible literally? Perhaps that's the subject for another post. For now, I'd be interested in your experience with the Bible and sense of its nature and authority.

This is what you get when you have a Historical-Critical understanding of Scripture. This is garbage of the first kind and should be thrown out as garbage. The LCMS seminaries teach the HIstorical-Grammatical method of understanding scripture. Great effort goes into teaching Greek and Hebrew so that we may look at scripture as a whole and in part to understand with the help of God, what is being said to us.

Paul wrote, "I desire to know nothing among you except Christ and him crucified." this was to the Corinthians in his first epistle to them. He wanted them to know the truth and he spoke some very difficult truths to them in which one of them he said to expel the immoral believer, which is reminiscent of what the Old Testament Israelites were told to do when someone chose sin over God's ways. But Paul meant for this to be a form of Church discipline to help this believer come to repentance and be restored (which did happen by the way).

If we did that today, almost the whole ELCA would be expelled as a church for upholding immorality as good (homosexuality issue). As it is, there is no altar and pulpit fellowship with this group from other Lutheran bodies so I guess that's the best that can be done in that area.

This article shows how far those in the ELCA have become too liberal to be considered Lutheran anymore. They have never in their History going back to the 19th century, accepted or adapted the whole Augsburg confession, but only those parts where they agree.

So this article does not hold water for me at all and as another poster said, he used many of the same old tired arguments.
 
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doulos_tou_kuriou

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the first reason it is no good is the author and the school for which he is writing. Anyone who has gone to St. Louis or Fort Wayne in the LCMS will just about pooh pooh anything coming out of this seminary.

I think that is a bit of an overstatement. After all, some of the more conservative ELCA seminary profs are at Luther including Paulson and Grindal. I know LCMS has had Paulson lecture before, in fact I think I was reading about a lecture of his at Fort Wayne not too long ago.
By all my estimations Luther is probably the most conservative of the ELCA seminaries (apart from maybe Southern, which I do not know too much about). Forde taught at Luther too, my friend at St. Louis has mentioned him as a name that immediately comes to mind when he thought of Luther (and not in a bad way).
 
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MDIVGRAD

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I think that is a bit of an overstatement. After all, some of the more conservative ELCA seminary profs are at Luther including Paulson and Grindal. I know LCMS has had Paulson lecture before, in fact I think I was reading about a lecture of his at Fort Wayne not too long ago.
By all my estimations Luther is probably the most conservative of the ELCA seminaries (apart from maybe Southern, which I do not know too much about). Forde taught at Luther too, my friend at St. Louis has mentioned him as a name that immediately comes to mind when he thought of Luther (and not in a bad way).

I would agree that Paulson is a conservative. I don't know enough about Grindal. It's ashame that they still believe that the ELCA can be turned around. It can't because the core leaders don't want to turn around. They are just as bad as Schmucker of the 19th century.
 
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doulos_tou_kuriou

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I would agree that Paulson is a conservative. I don't know enough about Grindal. It's ashame that they still believe that the ELCA can be turned around. It can't because the core leaders don't want to turn around. They are just as bad as Schmucker of the 19th century.

I've heard Paulson say a bit about this, and his example looks further back to the Arian controversy, where a few orthodox bishops were able to sustain and order the faith.
Grindel (I might be spelling her name wrong by the way) is a hymn writer, she was heavily involved in Word Alone and the Reclaim hymnal project.
 
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MDIVGRAD

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I've heard Paulson say a bit about this, and his example looks further back to the Arian controversy, where a few orthodox bishops were able to sustain and order the faith.
Grindel (I might be spelling her name wrong by the way) is a hymn writer, she was heavily involved in Word Alone and the Reclaim hymnal project.

If Paulson can maintain his own faith is one thing, i don't know about how effective he'll be as a sem prof to change other's minds. He is a friend of John Pless who used to be ELCA until he got fed up and left. He was the Pastor at ULC at the University of Minnesota for quite a number of years.
 
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St Jeremy

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Rechtgläubig;58243474 said:
I will make this short.

Perversion of God's Word is what got us into this mess in the first place (Gen 3:4).

It sickens me that this guy is teaching at a sem.
Do you believe the Bible should be taken literally? I do.
 
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