30+ Bible verses that support universal salvation

[Der Alte]

...

This was my original point to you. The first BIG hurdle I had to get over.
If the punishment isn't "eternal", then neither is the "life".
Fortunately, one age follows the previous one. And we'll all be ready for something new.

That is the UR pipe dream. All of humanity will be saved every crook, criminal, con man etc. will be saved, even after death.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. "Gehenna,” ”aiōnios,” “kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180

“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”​

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below. Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
This shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity. ​

= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's certainly a puzzling account in some ways.

Right. Not to mention talking snakes with legs. - lol
Something Eve didn't seemed to be surprised about. Makes you wonder.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Right. Not to mention talking snakes with legs. - lol
Something Eve didn't seemed to be surprised about. Makes you wonder.

The Bible does not state what the physical characteristics of the "serpent," not "snake," were before he/it was condemned to crawl on its belly.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Surely all the UR "scholars" can come up with an English adjective which corresponds to "aionios?"

"Aionios" occurs 72x in the NT
"Aionios" is translated world 5x
"Aionios" is translated eternal 42x
"Aionios" is translated everlasting 25x
Paul used "aionios" 23x
In Paul's writings "aionios" is translated world 3x.
So Paul used "aionios" for eternal/everlasting 20x
Jesus used "aionios" 28x. Jesus never used "aionios" for anything ordinary or mundane which was not /cannot be "eternal."

Apparently the translators can't settle on a single fixed denotative meaning of aionios, so why would the scholars?

Jesus refers to the aionion as another future state more than as a temporal duration. It's not just 'next week', but something qualitatively different. I experienced it when God opened my eyes, a sense of timelessness enriched with the immanent glorious presence of God. It was breathtaking and left me feeling as though I'd been given a glimpse across the Jordan to the Land of Milk and Honey.

So mere words don't convey the power of the aion or the olam, which must be known, experienced by the grace of God.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Earlier we discussed whether or not the wicked will fear God at the judgment (or after); as we know the fear of the Lord leads to life.

The naysayers wanted a verse to support this idea. I provided one but according to der Alte it was from a prayer and that is not a prophecy. Fine. Here's what I came up with:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31

So there it is, the wicked will indeed fear God, which leads to life. Praise God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Right. Not to mention talking snakes with legs. - lol
Something Eve didn't seemed to be surprised about. Makes you wonder.

I don't think 'Nacash' is necessarily a snake. Dragons and lizards have legs.

But isn't it somewhat explained by Paul in the verse from Rom 8 we discussed on another thread, that creation was subjected to futility in hope. It's this dynamic narrative of God saving the world by such true righteous acts (esp. Calvary), while never denying man his belief in free choice, the right of Israel to choose its own king...could say God made the world in order to destroy His spiritual enemies, by giving us life through death.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Earlier we discussed whether or not the wicked will fear God at the judgment (or after); as we know the fear of the Lord leads to life.

The naysayers wanted a verse to support this idea. I provided one but according to der Alte it was from a prayer and that is not a prophecy. Fine. Here's what I came up with:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31

So there it is, the wicked will indeed fear God, which leads to life. Praise God.

There's plenty. Another goodie is Rev 15:4:

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

 

[Saint Steven]

Earlier we discussed whether or not the wicked will fear God at the judgment (or after); as we know the fear of the Lord leads to life.

The naysayers wanted a verse to support this idea. I provided one but according to der Alte it was from a prayer and that is not a prophecy. Fine. Here's what I came up with:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31

So there it is, the wicked will indeed fear God, which leads to life. Praise God.

Humans have a natural fear of the unknown. I think that is the bulk of it. The one who takes notice of the fallen sparrow is NOT an angry volcano god.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't think 'Nacash' is necessarily a snake. Dragons and lizards have legs.

I agree, however one of the consequences (vs 14) of the serpent was to "crawl on your belly" and "eat dust all the days of your life." This infers the loss of legs. Also said (vs 15) to "strike his heel", metaphorically the action of a snake.

Genesis 3:14-15
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

 

[Saint Steven]

...could say God made the world in order to destroy His spiritual enemies, by giving us life through death.

We are told that it is godly character to love our enemies. I expect nothing less from God. I don't believe the wrath of God is directed at individuals, but rather at the brokenness of creation that he is about to restore. The refiner's fire. (removes impurities) Thus preserving the precious metal.

The Damnationists make God out to be worse than a pagan, or a tax collector (traitor).

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree, however one of the consequences (vs 14) of the serpent was to "crawl on your belly" and "eat dust all the days of your life." This infers the loss of legs. Also said (vs 15) to "strike his heel", metaphorically the action of a snake.

Yes, a quick review of the 'nacash' passages reveals it's always used in the OT to refer to a snake.
Strong's Hebrew: 5175. נָחָשׁ (nachash) -- a serpent

(including the 'nacashim seraphim' fiery/ brazen serpents in Num 21:6, which lead to the brazen serpent being raised up, which Jesus reveals as a type or prophecy of him in John 3:14.)

It appears that there are other Hebrew words for other reptiles:

Leviticus 11:30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the common lizard, the skink, and the chameleon.

So the legged serpent is an animal with which we're not familiar. To be revealed in the time of restoration of all things?

As an aside, it's been suggested that the dollar sign $ represents the snake curled around the tree. Hence the word 'cash' derived from 'nacash'. As in 'I got na cash, sorry' lol. Interesting, eh?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

We are told that it is godly character to love our enemies. I expect nothing less from God. I don't believe the wrath of God is directed at individuals, but rather at the brokenness of creation that he is about to restore. The refiner's fire. (removes impurities) Thus preserving the precious metal.

True, that's why I said 'spiritual enemies', meaning predominantly death, sin and the devil, the powers and principalities etc. Those unseen forces that plague and blind mankind.

The destruction of these enemies that keep man from God and righteousness, lost in unbelief and vanity (misplaced faith) is precisely that process of burning away the dross. The dross is destroyed.

 

[Der Alte]

Apparently the translators can't settle on a single fixed denotative meaning of aionios, so why would the scholars?

Perhaps I might introduce you the the term "hyperbole." Words are often used hyperbolically in the Bible.
It depends on what one is calling "translators" and "scholars." I term a "scholar" as one who has completed doctoral level education, credentialed in his/her field with peer reviewed published works. That would exclude the likes of Robert Young author of YLT since he was self taught.
One current scholar who is held in high esteem is Dr. Daniel Wallace who has taught graduate level Greek for 40+ years and has published peer reviewed Greek grammars. I happen to own his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Most enlightening. Unfortunately the works of credentialed scholars does not support the reinterpretations of UR supporters. And unlike the writings of UR-ites legitimate scholars provide substantial scholarship in support of their works.

Jesus refers to the aionion as another future state more than as a temporal duration. It's not just 'next week', but something qualitatively different. I experienced it when God opened my eyes, a sense of timelessness enriched with the immanent glorious presence of God. It was breathtaking and left me feeling as though I'd been given a glimpse across the Jordan to the Land of Milk and Honey.

I had a NDE in '09 when I experienced acute kidney failure, a-fibrillation and a few other things during a simple laparoscopic hernia repair that went way south. Prior to that I seriously doubted such accounts. But that is neither here nor there. Anecdotal evidence is not falsifiable.

So mere words don't convey the power of the aion or the olam, which must be known, experienced by the grace of God.

It will take substantial, verifiable evidence to refute the evidence I have posted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT which I have posted numerous times and I am convinced such evidence will never be provided. As I said forget about the 100 year old obsolete YLT.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

One current scholar who is held in high esteem is Dr. Daniel Wallace who has taught graduate level Greek for 40+ years and has published peer reviewed Greek grammars.

I've been watching a few of his lectures on YT recently, as it happens. Serious textual critic, no doubt.

Unfortunately the works of credentialed scholars does not support the reinterpretations of UR supporters. And unlike the writings of UR-ites legitimate scholars provide substantial scholarship in support of their works.

That's a little unfair. There are many well-credentialled UR scholars, if that's what you're after, dating all the way back.

I had a NDE in '09 when I experienced acute kidney failure, a-fibrillation and a few other things during a simple laparoscopic hernia repair that went way south. Prior to that I seriously doubted such accounts. But that is neither here nor there. Anecdotal evidence is not falsifiable.

Sure, I mentioned it in passing, not for persuasive effect. What did you see/ experience?

It will take substantial, verifiable evidence to refute the evidence I have posted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT which I have posted numerous times and I am convinced such evidence will never be provided. As I said forget about the 100 year old obsolete YLT.

I'm happy for Matt 25:46 to read 'eternal punishment', but say whatever Jesus meant it could not have been to displace the great covenants of God, in particular the 'all peoples blessed' (Abrahamic) and 'every knee every tongue' (Cyrenian). That's just the logic, the son does not do anything against the Father, whose emphatically and repeatedly expressed will is that all shall be saved.

 

[Der Alte]

I've been watching a few of his lectures on YT recently, as it happens. Serious textual critic, no doubt.

Well respected in his field. I am not aware of any serious challenges to his writings.

That's a little unfair. There are many well-credentialled UR scholars, if that's what you're after, dating all the way back.

Quote some of them amigo? Along with the CVs. What's unfair? I would not go to a Dr. who doesn't have a MD granted by an accredited university, with a membership in the AMA. A lawyer ditto. Why should anyone settle for anything less in any other field?

Sure, I mentioned it in passing, not for persuasive effect. What did you see/ experience?

Not open for discussion. Enough to convince me that NDEs can be legitimate.
My first encounter with one was a soldier back from Viet Nam said he had an NDE on an operating table when he was wounded in Viet Nam. It took about 4 decades for me to believe he was right.

I'm happy for Matt 25:46 to read 'eternal punishment', but say whatever Jesus meant it could not have been to displace the great covenants of God, in particular the 'all peoples blessed' (Abrahamic) and 'every knee every tongue' (Cyrenian). That's just the logic, the son does not do anything against the Father, whose emphatically and repeatedly expressed will is that all shall be saved.

This might be correct but it will not be decided by amateurs who don't know a hithpael from a hatpin or an aorist from an aardvark and probably couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it.
When I was taking my final in Hebrew, lo these many decades ago, the Professor said "Locate all the verbs and that doesn't mean open your Hebrew OT and point."
So unless I see scholarship from credentialed scholars the best scholarship available is the 1917 JPS and the EOB. Neither of which have ever been shown to be incorrect.

 

[Saint Steven]

So the legged serpent is an animal with which we're not familiar. To be revealed in the time of restoration of all things?

As an aside, it's been suggested that the dollar sign $ represents the snake curled around the tree. Hence the word 'cash' derived from 'nacash'. As in 'I got na cash, sorry' lol. Interesting, eh?

Wow. That's an interesting thought. (or two) At the restoration of all things the snakes might get their serpent legs back and stop crawling on their belly and eating dust all the days of their lives. - lol

Hopefully the end of weeds and thistles (sweat on the brow) and labor pains as well. I have always wondered whether all things that impede our progress here will not be present in heaven.

That "$" thing would explain why I get bit every time I open my wallet.

 

[Der Alte]

...

That "$" thing would explain why I get bit every time I open my wallet.

This is the house of representatives chambers. This image appeared on the back of a US bill. This is the source for the "$".

 

[Gup20]

Wow. That is a COMPLETE misunderstanding of UR.
Bad continues for all eternity in a forever burning hell.
Bad is dealt with permanently in UR. There will be no "bad" people in heaven.

When a person is released from prison, they paid their debt to society for their wrong.
But since humanity refuses to forgive them, they typically have no choice but to return to their previous life of crime. So, who is the REAL bad person in this situation? The one who paid their debt to society, or the one who refuses to welcome them back into society?

This was my original point to you. The first BIG hurdle I had to get over.
If the punishment isn't "eternal", then neither is the "life".
Fortunately, one age follows the previous one. And we'll all be ready for something new.

You're implication is that if any saint doesn't accept an unrepentant sinner as a future saved person, they are the "real" bad persons. So again, you've blamed the saints and allowed the unrepentant sinners full grace. I don't think I've misunderstood UR at all. There is a spirit who is the accuser of the saints, and it from him that the notion of blaming saints comes from.

Many of the Old Testament scriptures that describe the eternal nature of God use the same word, owlam (I posted several of them). Are you saying that the hurdle you had to get over was that salvation was eternal, and that God Himself was eternal, and once you got over that, you were able to believe UR? Are you telling us you deny the eternity of God, and you deny the eternity of salvation?

 

[Gup20]

Contempt is equated to shame, which is the result of having your bow broken in the Valley of Jezreel, that moment your unbelief is overcome by amazing grace.

Isaiah is instructive:

Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD. O LORD, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it. They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame; Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies. (Isa 26:10-11)

Plunging on to Isa 45:22-25:

Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are deliverance and strength.’ ” All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. But all the descendants of Israel will find deliverance in the LORD and will make their boast in him.

Then we trace to Rev 15:3-4:

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

And of course, after they're 'devoured by fire' in Revelation 20:9, the nations return to worship God in Revelation 21:24-26 and receive healing in Revelation 22:2.

So yes, contempt for the old man, the sinner who didn't believe God would or could save everyone, arises when the revelation of the divine fire of zealous righteous grace transforms all creatures. 'Behold, I am making all things anew' (Rev 21:5).

So you don't believe these verses mean "everlasting" when they say "everlasting" even though both the Hebrew and Greek agree (and since both agree, you have to do some wonderful mental gymantics to get them both to say the opposite).

[Mat 25:46 KJV] 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Dan 12:2 KJV] 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.​

By the way, you skirted the question; is contempt the same as grace? Your answer implies "no" but contempt isn't permanent.

If this is the case, let me ask you -- is it righteous and good and just for God to torment the evil doers with unyielding suffering for a short while, so long as it is isn't permanent? Perhaps for a few thousand years? Longer? Shorter?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well respected in his field. I am not aware of any serious challenges to his writings.

He really brings the story of Tischendorf's Codex Sinaiticus find to life.

Quote some of them amigo? Along with the CVs. What's unfair? I would not go to a Dr. who doesn't have a MD granted by an accredited university, with a membership in the AMA. A lawyer ditto. Why should anyone settle for anything less in any other field?

I'm no expert in who the UR scholars are. You'd no doubt rubbish them anyway. But just on that point, I know many non-accredited healers and legal thinkers who are far more gifted than many who are. Great inventions for example rarely come from within the field, because it requires thinking 'outside the box', and conformity to 'accepted practice' can be soul-destroying.

Not open for discussion. Enough to convince me that NDEs can be legitimate.
My first encounter with one was a soldier back from Viet Nam said he had an NDE on an operating table when he was wounded in Viet Nam. It took about 4 decades for me to believe he was right.

Good. I know something about NDEs, but being 'born again' differed in that the sense of timelessness was plenary, it was chock-full of God's spirit, ineffable qualitative gold.

This might be correct but it will not be decided by amateurs who don't know a hithpael from a hatpin or an aorist from an aardvark and probably couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it.
When I was taking my final in Hebrew, lo these many decades ago, the Professor said "Locate all the verbs and that doesn't mean open your Hebrew OT and point."
So unless I see scholarship from credentialed scholars the best scholarship available is the 1917 JPS and the EOB. Neither of which have ever been shown to be incorrect.

That's fine der Alte. But I'm always going to read Matt 25:46 in a way that harmonises with the main scriptural artery that runs through the covenant revelations of Abraham, Cyrus, Jesus and John the Revelator.