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Featured 2thessalonians2:7

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    For Antichrist would be against Christ, head of the kingdom. Anti does not only mean against but also in place of of vice as in vice chancellor. By calling himself Vicar of Christ, he is calling himself Antichrist.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes, Antichrist will be both instead of and against Christ (being instead of Jesus and against Jesus is what is being inferred).

    The person who becomes the Antichrist - that is, anointed the King of Israel - must be a Jew and his religion Judaism. Judaism is against the position that Jesus is the messiah. So, the person will be speaking against Jesus for all the reasons Judaism currently state as why Jesus is not the messiah.

    Does the Pope say that Jesus is not the messiah?

    Is the Pope the another that Jesus said to Nicodemus that they, the Jews, would accept?

    Do the Jews accept the Pope as their King of Israel?

    David, by knowing what the "confirms the covenant with many" in Daniel 9:27 actually means - it becomes even more apparent that the person becomes the Antichrist by being anointed the King of Israel - and made the leader of Israel.

    Back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses made it a law that all future leaders of Israel, address the nation of Israel (the many in Daniel 9:27 ) to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant, in a big speech to the people, specifically that God gave the children of Israel, the land of Israel as theirs forever. By being the leader of Israel - like Moses was the leader of Israel - it will be incumbent upon the person to give the speech.

    The "for 7 years" is the cycle, how often that the speech is to be given. It is in Deuteronomy 31:10.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    There are some pastors who have "issues" for sure. But what distinguishes the person as the man of sin
    is that the goes into the temple, sits, and by that act claims to be God.
     
  4. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Amen, amen. There is far more evidence in scripture the one who restrains is an angel than any of the other theories.


    Below is a repost of mine from another thread:


    Who is the he who now letteth?



    2 Thess. 2: 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.



    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,



    It is the contention by many the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit within the church is the only one who could possibly restrain the man of sin, until “his time”. The scriptures below prove that is absolutely false. Notice it always Michael the archangel who shows up when satan or one of his fallen angels are to be dealt with.




    Daniel 12:12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



    Thy people are “every one that shall be found written in the book”



    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



    Note, when Michael “stands up” it is at the time of the tribulation and the resurrection.



    Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.



    13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.



    The prince of Persia (fallen angel) withstood one of God’s unnamed angels until he received help from Michael.





    Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.



    21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.



    Michael fights with one of God’s angels against the fallen angel the prince of Persia. Interesting wording in verse 21 “there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince”.



    Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.



    Michael contends with the devil over the body of Moses.



    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,



    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.



    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



    Michael and his angels fight with the devil and his angels and cast them out of heaven.



    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



    Note it is after satan is cast out of heaven he has great wrath.



    Many like to throw around clichés about the church restraining the man of sin, but there are never any scriptures to back that up. The uncomfortable fact for pretribbers is they need it to be so, to nullify what 2 Thess 2 really says. How convenient, if the Holy Spirit with the church is departed from this earth. I would like to see a list of scripture like those above that show the Holy Spirit doing battle with the evil one and his angels. No, I am not doubting the power of the Holy Spirit, that is just not His role as laid out in scripture. If you disagree post specific scriptures where that happens.


    Fact is Michael the archangel has power over the devil and his crowd. All through the Old and New Testament we find angels carrying out missions for God, that’s what they do.
     
  5. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    You keep telling me?
    You've not said anything,me about a temple.I havnt even spoken of a temple till this thread?
    I havnt visited this board for five years and you claim you keep telling me?You must be losin your mind.

    As for Paul.He never called the man-made temple in Jerusalem the temple of God.He knew better.Sail may have called it that but not Paul.
     
  6. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, He is the king of the church.
     
  7. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    • 1 Corinthians 3:16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    • 1 Corinthians 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    • 2 Corinthians 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    • 2 Thessalonians 2:4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Postvieww, in which of those cases is Michael engaged with any activity asserting his power except with another angel?

    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    It is Jesus who is doing the letting and the restraining.
    And we should get down on our knee's and be thankful that it is Jesus and not Michael.

    "What a friend we have in Jesus"
     
  9. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Daniel 12:1 which IMHO was Paul’s understanding when he wrote 2 Thess 2. Michael was the angel charged with watching over Israel. What does that matter anyway?

    100% agree Jesus has all power but with that power He has the authority to delegate whatever power even to you if He so choses and most definitely angels who do heavens bidding.

    Your argument that Jesus has all power is a nonstarter here. Are you taking the position that Jesus cannot use Michael if He so chooses? If that is your position then you are saying Jesus does not have all power.

    Amen, amen
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Postvieww, find a verse of Michael, his name spelled out in the text, of him combating, or engaged in any forceful way, to anyone other than another angel.

    Daniel 12:1, Michael is the angel watching over Israel, Daniel's people... but in 2thesssalonians2, Paul was addressing the Thessalonicans, not Israel.

    btw, I am not trying to prove or disprove the pre-trib rapture in this thread.
     
  11. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  12. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Hi Doug, can we be frank with one another and not play games? So far I am trying to answer your questions and points raised and you are avoiding many of my points and questions by asking more questions , but I will try to address them all.

    When this topic has come up on other threads I have stated and will repeat here, this is the theory I hold to because I believe it has the most evidence. I do not claim I am absolutely right here. My point is some of the other theories have little or no evidence from scripture.

    My claim is that Michael is the most likely candidate but in other posts I have left that possibility open to another angel. Now to your question.



    If your point is , where is there a verse that clearly states Michael is the “he” there is not one . I am trying to present evidence here that this “could” be the case..

    Revelation 20:1-3 clearly describes an angel of unknown name single handedly binding satan for 1000 years. My questions to you are.

    1. What in the text says to us this cannot be Michael? To my overall point it really doesn’t matter what the angels name is.

    2. If one angel single handily can bind satan , why can’t an angel prevent the revealing of the man of sin until God says it’s time.



    Agreed, it is my contention here that part of Michaels duties may include restraining until the proper time, the man of sin which will have a direct impact on Israel.



    Point taken, it is your thread. I should have edited my comment on that out of the repost I put on this thread.

    Now would you be so kind as to address my point raised about Jesus having all power. I will repeat it here.

    Also to my original question, what is your scriptural evidence for your position?
     
  13. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Hal A Peno said:

    This is no easy passage for me and I have to spend some time on it, etc. There are several ways to go with the verse, and the removal of the Holy Spirit is too contradictory to be true. A man? Maybe.

    Could be, I am not trying to be dogmatic here, only trying to support my theory with at least something from scripture.

    It's all about Islam, in my view.

    I agree, Islam is a major player is end time events.

    The apostasy is an end-time event that I believe is currently taking place in the Arab world. ISIS is also prophesied in the OT.

    I haven’t really looked at the “apostasy” in that way, hmmm

    I'm not a believer in OWG and OWR. I say the kingdom of the man of sin is limited to the Mid-East.

    I do believe there are forces in our day trying to achieve both, whether that happens or not we shall see. I do agree with your point that the man of sin is mainly limited to the Middle East. There are several scriptural reason to take that position.

    Apostasy is a political and religious revolt or rebellion, and the Arab Middle-East, esp. Iraq, is in the Middle of it, ripe for the man of sin to enter. IF it is a man that is 'detaining' that would be abu bakr al-baghdadi. I know, it sounds crazy.

    We shall see. If you haven’t already, check out Joel Richardson on end time studies.

    It's also crazy how much stuff IS taking place in the spirit realms with the angels etc. If we only knew.

    1000% agree
     
  14. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  15. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  16. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Trust me brother, since I accepted Christ in 1980 I have had to make a lot of adjustments in my theology.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The one angel performs a specific task of taking chains and binding up Satan. The issue is not of who restrains the man of sin from committing the act.

    And it is WHAT in the text, not WHO... with-holds (restrains if you want to use that word) the man of sin being revealed in his time.

    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    The what is that Christians be taken out of the way first.... the what is the gathering unto Christ. Then the man of sin revealed act will take place.

    Since verse 6 is not a who but a what... To find out the who, we go to verse 7.

    And in that verse, the who applies to the person who both letteth and restrained the spirit of Antichrist work at the time of Thessalonians. Michael an angel is not the he because it way beyond his ability or place, as controlling the spirit of Antichrist is too broad that Michael be everywhere at once. Michael and the angels can do tasks that are one place at a time.... like the angel with the chain in Revelation 20.

    It is Jesus, who is both letting and restraining the spirit of Antichrist.

    And the same spirit of Antichrist will continue to work, causing trouble for Christians - until he, the person who is both letting and restricting is taken out of the way. Jesus Himself doesn't nee to be taken out of the way. But we Christians do, since we are not appointed unto wrath. Christians, collectively, are the body of Christ, and it is by the rapture Christians are taken out of the world, before the Day of Lord commences, triggered by the man of sin revealed act.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  18. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  19. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  20. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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