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Featured 2thessalonians2:7

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    That verse is not hard to understand that the Lord was allowing the Thessalonians and other Christians in their day, troubles caused by the spirit of Antichrist, as part of the growth and expansion of Christianity.

    "now letteth"..... referring to the presence time Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians.

    "will let"....... actually what is inferred is "continue to let" those same sort of troubles Christians experience caused by the spirit of Antichrist, would continue all the way through history....until....

    "he be taken out of the way". Which is a reference to the rapture.

    The collective body of believers is the body of Christ. The "he" is the body of Christ that will be taken out of the way. That is, to say, the rapture. The "he" is Jesus, and the "he" taken out of the way is Jesus's body here on earth.

    And "then", i.e. after the rapture, the man of sin will be revealed by the act of going into the temple sitting, claiming to be God.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed.......
    ,
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
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  2. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member

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    It's not agreed that The Restrainer -- the 'he' -- is The Church.

    Where else in the Bible is The Church referred to as "he"?
     
  3. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member

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    Again, one of the prerequisites to "our gathering together unto Him" is the REVEALING of the son of perdition"
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "letteth" means "restrains"; check the NASB.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    1Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    So the members of the church, collectively, are considered the body of Christ. Christ is a he, not a she.

    As you to your point, the church is also called the bride of Christ, which in that case would not be a he, but a she.

    You missed the mark. The Day of the Lord, the prerequiste is the Revealing of the son of perdition, by the Transgression of Desolation act. The Day of Lord is dark time of trouble and foreboding.

    18Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

    In looking for the rapture, we are not desiring the Day of the Lord. The revealing of the man of sin is not a prerequisite for the rapture, but for the Day of the Lord.

    2thessalonians2:7 is saying that Christians will experience troubles in this world by the spirit of Antichrist which is opposed to Jesus, and was working back in Paul's day, and will continue to work causing troubles for Christians - until the body of Christ is taken out of the way. Then the man of sin will be revealed by the Transgression of Desolation act which sets off the Day of the Lord.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    A person could look at it as "restrains" or "letteth". The net result is the spirit of Antichrist was causing troubles for the Thessalonians, and will cause problems for Christians right up to the day of the rapture.
     
  7. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member

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    2Th 2:1
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2Th 2:2
    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    2Th 2:3
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    coming of Jesus is paired with our gathering together unto him,

    and can't come until man of sin is revealed
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its accompanying apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

    "Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

    Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

    History subsequently confirmed the inspired prescience of Paul's admonitions, as the apostasy of the Roman papacy unfolded over the centuries.
     
  9. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    Thanks!!
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Anto9us, if so, your view that the man of sin must be revealed prior to the rapture, in which verse are reading the gathering unto him (Jesus) in verses 8-17 ?

    8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
     
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member

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    2Th 2:1
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    Coming and gathering together unto him are paired from the get-go in verse 1; I don't know how to make it any plainer.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    That verse could be read, interpreted a couple of different ways, including yours, which there is no resolution - the answer is in the rest of 2thessalonians2.

    There is a comma between Christ.... and by our gathering together unto him. Which grammatically would indicate two separate events. But I would not want to rely on the minutia of a comma, especially since we are reading a translation, to prove not the same event.

    I think when a person goes down through the verses, and the evident troubles the thessalonians were having - verse 7 solidly establishes the rapture - the taking out of the way, before the judgments and wrath of God takes place on the earth because of the outlandish act of the revealed man of sin, and the persecution by him that follows - corresponds to both Luke 21:34:36 and Revelation 3:10 in not having to experience that time that takes place here on earth..

    I want re-emphasize that 2thessalonians2 does not prove nor disprove a pre-trib (pre-70th week) rapture. That's not what I am trying to do, okay?
     
  13. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member

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    OK. Great that you are not trying to prove or disprove a pre-trib rapture; really, neither am I -- I am just pointing out that the first few verses of 2 Thess 2 SEEM TO put the COMING and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM in the same day of Christ that Paul was trying to assure the Thessalonians that it had not happenned yet -- and WOULD NOT HAPPEN until a future apostasy AND a revealing of the son of perdition would occur; and imo, that would seem to rule out a pre-trib GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM...

    Actually, it is 2 Thess 2 which, imo, rules out both pre-trib and full preterism, for if there was a son of perdition that was destroyed by the mouth of the Lord and the brightness of His parousia, who had sat in a Temple as God -- I sure don't know who or when that was, and a couple of different explanations had been given to me in the past, both very weak

    And btw, there are no commas in Koine Greek...

    Paul's purpose was to try to assure them that the day of the Lord/day of Christ had not come yet, as some Thessalonians were believing.

    1. If those who thought that had believed in a pre-trib rapture, it would mean that all the then-present Thessalonian Christians had MISSED a "gathering together unto Him".

    2. If those who thought that did not believe in a pre-trib rapture, it would mean that all the then-present Thessalonian Christians thought they were already in the Trib -- and I think that was the case rather than #1.

    It's far more logical for me to think that the Thessalonians who were troubled were troubled because they thought

    "The Trib is here!"

    rather than

    "Wow, me and every Thessalonian Christian I know has MISSED A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!"

    Think about it.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If that were the case, that the rapture, the gathering to Christ, follows the man of sin being revealed - then there should be mentioning of the gathering somewhere in verses 8 -17, but there is nothing there about the gathering to Christ, because the rapture - the taking out of the way, takes place in verse 7.

    Then (after the rapture), the man of sin, that Wicked be revealed in verse 8. The Transgression of Desolation is the act that reveals him. The Transgression of Desolation is in Daniel 8:13 and includes the stopping of the daily sacrifice.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    The Abomination of Desolation is something different, an image made of the person after he has become the beast in Revelation 13, basically a statue of him and place in the temple.
     
  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member

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    I think decades ago, I used to believe that...

    the HE that is taken out of the way is the Holy Spirit inside all the believers who get raptured away...
    making the falling away a falling UP...
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The problem with the interpretation as the "he" in verse 7 being the Holy Spirit is that people will be saved after the rapture of the church. And when a person is saved they are born again, by the power of the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit has to be in the world.

    While there is no disagreement that the Holy Spirit is within believers, their souls; apart from being in believers, the Holy Spirit is present in the world to draw men to Christ.

    The Jews (Judaism) in particular, during the intial stages of the seven years, prior to the person revealing himself as the man of sin, will not be believers in Jesus, quiet the opposite. But when their King of Israel, thought to be messiah, does the unthinkable, by stopping the daily sacrifice, goes into the temple, sits, and claims to be God by the act... they are going to be mortified.

    That's when they will turn to Jesus and be saved. They, becoming Christians after the man of sin is revealed, they are not raptured, but are rescued at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns - in Zechariah 14.

    The great tribulation also corresponds to the time of Jacob's troubles.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  17. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    How do you authoritatively from scripture support your above claim?


    From past posts on this topic I have read;


    The “he” is:


    1. the church


    2. the Holy Spirit within the church


    3. God himself


    4. Michael or another of God’s angels


    I may have missed some.


    From our past conversations I fully understand what your position is, my question here is how do you from scripture prove it?


    It is clear from verse 5 Paul had already explained this to the Thessalonians but we do not have that luxury.
     
  18. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    No the word actually does mean BINDS so the verse should go like this...He (Church working via the Holy Spirit) who now BINDS will BIND until he be taken out of the way

    By looking at the following verse it all comes together.

    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    So he who BINDS will continue to BIND until he is taken out of the way (Because the Gates of hell can not prevail against the Church)......And THEN and ONLY THEN can the Anti-Christ come forth.

    The He could be the Church or the Holy Spirit to be honest. But the Holy Spirit BINDS HIM from coming forth on behalf of the Church, until we are Raptured, so its really irrelevant.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Postvieww, here is my comments on the four thought to be interpretations of the "he" - which you provided.


    1. the church -
    the church cannot rapture itself. i.e. take itself out of the way.

    2. the Holy Spirit within the church -
    already explained, the Holy Spirit must remain present within the world for people to be saved.

    3. God himself - Jesus is God. But God Himself does not need to be taken out of the way. Corporately, believers are the body of Christ, and are not appointed to wrath or the time of the great tribulation. 1Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    4. Michael or another of God’s angels -
    does not have the authority to letteth and continue to let in regards to the mystery of iniquity - the spirit of Antichrist..
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Holy Spirit is not only in the souls of believers. But is present outside of believers to draw men to Christ, and it is the Holy Spirit, not the church, that enters mens's soul, i.e. that the person is borne again.

    So it is not the Holy Spirit which is taken out of the way. And it is not the church who is binding the mystery of iniquity, the spirit of Antichrist. The church is being troubled because of the spirit of Antichrist, present in the world.

    Back in Job, God limited Satan to what he could do to Job - if you want to go with the interpretation as being binding. All power in heaven and in the earth has been given to Jesus.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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