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25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

Discussion in 'Word of Faith' started by SavedByGrace3, Jun 28, 2002.

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  1. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States

    Amen! :clap:
    Please help us :help: keep the thread open! I do not blame the mods for wanting to shut this and other threads down. It is painful to read some of the stuff that is going down and I am a guilty as anyone . Please forgive if I offended! :sorry:

    As a rule I am not going to respond to anything that is not framed in scripture. Nor will I respond to anything that even looks like a personal attack or a schoolyard antic. It takes two to tangle and I won't be one of them.

    If the thread takes another turn for the worst, I will ask the mods to shut it down myself.
    Let's be nice. :hug: Even if you disagree with what is said, please offer more than a negative remark. Let's raise the level of the discussion to one that informs and edifies. :idea: We all might learn something. Especially me!
  2. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States

    I too ask for forgiveness for any offense.  I also will try to abide by the same rule of not responding if I feel the poster is out of line. 

  3. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    The Old man.Degenerate Spirit. Soul ruled old man.Flesh.

    What is unregenerate man?
    What is his makeup and nature?

    First, we have to understand what man is.

    You are a spirit, you have a soul, and you live in a body.

    1 Thessalonians 5:
    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The wording of this verse is very specific. There are three parts: Spirit, soul, and body.

    Some confuse the spirit and the soul, and even think them to be the same. This verse shows them to be separate. Also Hebrews 4:12 reveals that the two can be "divided asunder". The verse also demonstrates the difficulty in discerning the difference between the two.
    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    That the body is separate from the spirit and soul is evident in that we see that when the spirit is separate from the body, it is present from the Lord.

    2 Corinthians 5:
    8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    The Fallen Nature
    John 8:
    44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Here in a nutshell is a declaration of the nature of fallen man. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, but this is true of all. He was stating a fact about all unregenerate mankind. Unregenerate people are all children of the devil. If you are saved, you were a child of the devil before you were born again. Jesus is talking about the heart.

    Look at these other statements about the nature of the unregenerate:

    Ephesians 2
    1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    The spirit that lives and works in the unregenerate is that of the devil. They are children of the devil and are "by nature the children of wrath". They cannot help it.

    Look at what Jeremiah said:

    Jeremiah 17:
    9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    The word "desperately" wicked here means incurably wicked.

    And this also:
    Jeremiah 13:
    23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

    The man with the unregenerate heart cannot change his nature any more than a leopard can change its spots. Even his efforts at righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord:

    Isaiah 64:
    6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Jesus knew well the fallen nature of man, and spoke concerning it.

    Matthew 15:
    19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    So what did you do as a fallen man with the nature of the devil in you? You dared not walk in accordance to the desires of your unregenerate spirit. If you had done that, you would have been like the devil incarnate, doing every evil and wicked thing that your fallen nature told you. You would have murdered, looted, and sinned every imaginable sin, and shortly either been killed, or caught and jailed.

    So what did you do?

    You did is what we all did, and what all unregenerates do. You learned to live out of your soul. You lived according to carnal rules and regulations. You lived by fear and guilt. You kept your fallen spiritual nature under the control of your soul, which was trained with religious and social rules. Odd as it sounds, you walked in the flesh! You walked according to the rules of the soul and body. You reacted to fear of pain, fear of punishment, fear of rejection. Guilt and condemnation was used to control your life and actions. You lived by "dead works". They were not pleasing to God, but they did prevent you from committing the most grievous and harmful sins. The "old man" of scripture is the man that is soul ruled. It is the man that is dominated by the soul, by fear, by guilt, and by condemnation.

    Man is lost, not because of any decision he has made, but because of the fallen nature he was born with. He is acting out his own nature. He cannot help doing what he was born to do. His sins are just the fruit of his fallen nature. Even his attempts at doing good are filthy rags before God. If God is to save man, he must do more than just pluck him from the fires of hell. He must do more than just forgive sins. He must do more than simply redeem him. He must remove the incurably wicked spirit of the devil that is in him, and replace it with a new spirit that is righteous and able to do the good works that are required by God. The ultimate goal of salvation is not to just save man from hell and punishment, but to recreate him in the image of God, with a divine nature that can commune with and please God. If this was not done, then we would be nothing more than cleaned up sinners, who were still incapable of pleasing God.
  4. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    Dear Readers,

    Here are some scriptures for you to ponder.

    Hebrews 12:4-11
    4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin: 5 and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him; 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness. 11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness.

    Notice that the discipline of the Lord is compared to scourging [verse 6] and that it is unpleasant at times [verse 11].

    Hebrews 11:1
    1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

    God is not faith and nor does He have faith. God does not need to hope and he sees all things.

    Always check out whatever you hear with the Word of God and let the Spirit guide you into all truth.

    Thanks for your time,

    In His love,
  5. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    The New man. Regenerate Spirit. Soul renewed to submit to spirit. Flesh crucified.

    When Jesus died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, a great deal more was done that simply to redeem us from past sins. God took the steps needed to raise all who believe in the gospel from spiritual death.

    Romans 6:
    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    When Jesus died on the cross, he did more than just pay the price of our sins. He became one with us. Just as we are one with Adam, Jesus became one with us. When He died on the cross, we, that is our fallen spirits, died with him. We passed away on the cross with Jesus. We were joined with him in spirit.

    2 Corinthians 5:
    21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    It is difficult to grasp. Out minds cannot fathom it. Jesus, who never sinned, became one with us in spiritual death. It was imperative that this happen, so that when God raised him from spiritual death, we would raise with Him! Jesus loved us so much, that he was joined with us, and was thereby "made sin for us", so that when God raised Him from the dead, we (who are joined to Him forever) would be raised up with Him in newness of life. When God raised up the spirit of Jesus from spiritual death, we were raised with Him. Because He were made one us in spiritual death, we were made one with Him in the new life.

    2 Corinthians 5:
    17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Therefore, the old adamic spirit that was incurably wicked is gone. The new spirit we have inside us now is the same as that of Jesus.

    Colossians 2
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    We partake of this new birth "through faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead... you have he quickened together with him..."

    We are raised from spiritual death with Jesus.

    Ephesians 2:
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    You could not be quickened together with Christ unless you were both dead in sins. He had to be made spiritually dead when he became one with you. He was made sin, like you.

    Romans 5
    16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {by one man's...: or, by one offence}

    We are one with Christ now, in the same way we were one with adam before. We had the same fallen nature as he did. Now we are one with Christ, we have the same divine nature as He does. Adam, and all mankind had the nature of the devil and were said to be children of the devil. They were not the devil. but they had his nature. We have the same divine nature as Jesus has. We are children of God. We are not divine, but we have His nature in our recreated spirits.

    Romans 5:
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Can you see what this is saying? Just as you were lost through no action of your own, so to are you saved through no action of your own. By the disobedience of adam, you were made a sinner. By the obedience of Jesus, you are made a doer of righteousness. Not just proclaimed "righteous". You now have a spirit which is as incapable of committing sin as the old adamic spirit was incapable of doing righteousness.

    2 Corinthians 5:
    21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    You are made a good tree, and cannot put forth evil fruit. Your spirit cannot sin!

    1 John 3:
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Dare to believe this my friend. This is the first step towards living live without sin. It is believing what the Word say about you. It is saying the same thing as the Word says about you. Say this to yourself continually in your prayer life and confession.

    "I am born of God, therefore I do not commit sin. His seed and nature is in me, and I cannot sin, because I am born of God. I have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. My nature is that of God, and I am a good tree that cannot put forth evil fruit"

    Understand that you still have a body and soul to deal with. But settle it in your mind that your spirit is born of God can cannot sin. The key to overcoming the flesh and the world is in the new creation spirit that lives in you. We shall see how that most of us have been going at our war with the flesh all wrong. We have been doing the very things we should not have been doing.

    And so we know have a new spirit in us, the nature of which is God. Why then do we still sin? We mentioned before that before we were saved, we had to walk in the soul. If we had walked according to the fallen nature of our spirits, we would have been monsters! So we contained our sinful spiritual natures with soulish religions and social training. We had to do so for all the years of our lives till we were born again. Walking according to the soul was all we knew. Now we find we have to do something different. Not only different, but completely the opposite of what we had been doing all of our lives. We had to stop walking according to the religious and social training that had served us so well, and start to walk according to the spirit! This was something we have strived to avoid for many years!

    Ephesians 4
    22 ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
    23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

    We are told to "put off the former behaviour of the old man". The former behaviour of the old man was the habit of walking according to the soul! He is not saying to stop walking according to the old fallen nature, primarily because it is gone and no longer there to walk in if you wanted to, and secondly, because you never dared to walk according to the fallen nature to start with. The old man is the man you were before you were born again; the soul controlled man who kept the spirit under at all costs. Now you must be renewed in the spirit of you mind. The phrase "spirit of your mind" means the intention or goal of your mind. There is coloring in the Greek which means to return your mind to a child like state for the purpose of training. You trained your soul all your life to control your actions and rule your spirit and flesh with fear and guilt. Now we have a new creation spirit in us, and we have to train our soul to submit to the inclinations of this new spirit. In times past we resisted the the (old fallen) spirit all costs! Now we are doing an about face and training our soul to submit to that which it ruled before!

    Ephesians 4:
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    We now have to put on the new man. We kept the (fallen) spirit hid for many years. Now we want to bring the (new) spirit out, and put it on for all to see! This is a task that you must do. If you have not yet taken steps to bring your soul into submission to your spirit, then you are still living in the "old man" habits of fear, guilt, and condemnation. It is no mistake that the first doctrine listed in the Doctrine of Christ is "repentance from dead works"

    Hebrews 6
    1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    This brings us to the first principle of how to never sin again.

    You must stop trying to obey God by the dead work obedience of your soul. You must repent of trying to be saved (and staying saved), by being good enough. God has declared you good. BELIEVE you are the righteousness of God in Christ. How could you possibly improve on that?

    You must stop living in FEAR of God and FEAR of punishment for sin. Believe the scripture. Jesus came and took away the sin of the world. BELIEVE! Do you think He failed? He did not fail.

    All these are holdovers from your "former behaviour"; when you, with fear, guilt, and condemnation kept your fallen nature under control. You do not have to worry about a fallen nature any longer. It is gone. Now fear and guilt are the enemy. Fear is the opposite of faith. Fear fuels doubt. The very thing you used to keep sin under control before is now that which keeps you defeated. You need to have faith to defeat sin in your life. Fear is what prevented the Jews from going into the land of promise, because they believed an evil report about "giants in the land". Fear is what helped bring Job into despair; "that which he greatly feared came upon him". In actuality, fear is a kind of faith in the negative. It believes the worst is coming. It looks for the bad. It believes the worst, even when there is not evidence of it. If you are in constant fear of God, you will never draw nigh unto Him. You will hide your face from the very one who you desperately need to help you overcome the world. You need to immediately repent of the dead work of obedience by fear. Confess and believe that you are a child of God, and that you have the righteousness of God in Christ. March confidently into the throne room of Grace, raise your hands, and praise Him for His goodness. Praise Him and tell Him that you are what He said you are. You must stop allowing the GUILT and shame of sin to prevent you from approaching the throne of God. It is unbelief that causes this. You are not believing what the scriptures say. They say that you are righteous. If you feel you have some unconfessed sin in your life, simply confess it and He said that He is faithful (not you) and just to forgive you and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. He will do it. He did not lie. Once done, you are cleansed of all unrighteousness.

    In the many years before you were saved, and even since: how did you resist sinning? Some used fear and guilt, as described above. But many used "will power" and self denial to attempt to resist sinning.

    Colossians 2:
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and (mock) humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    These things are the methods of the old soul ruled man. They appear to work on the surface, but are just a "show". There is no true victory in this. It is still the old soul ruled man trying to accomplish something it cannot do. So what are we to do?
  6. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    Does condemnation, fear, and guilt
    lead to righteousness and sinlessness?

    We used to live in a house out in the country which had a septic tank. If you are unaware of what a septic tank is, then think of it as a sewer in you back yard. Waste is piped out into an underground holding tank where it is broken down and eliminated into the ground through long pipes. They work great, unless yours overflows or a leak develops! Then there is big trouble! If you tried to patch or cover up the leak, it would not help at all. If you tried to wash the mess away, it would just make the mess worse and spread it around. Sin is like this. You cannot cover it up, or stop it by willpower. It will only get worse. The mere act of dwelling and meditating and worrying about the sin actually gives it more power over you. Filling your heart and mind with the problem will cause it to overwhelm you. It is like pushing a boulder up an ever increasing slope. The harder you push, the heavier the stone gets. The key is to stop pushing and let it go! You have to dig down and fix the problem at it's source. Dealing with the outward manifestations may prevent you from actually committing the act (which is certainly better than doing it!), but all the while you know the ugliness and stench is still in your body and mind. We want to overcome the world, not just endure it!

    This brings us to the second principle of how to never sin again.

    1 John 5:
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

    We overcome the world by faith. A religious sounding concept, which has been overlooked by the church world as a whole for centuries. Look at what the "world" is:

    1 John 2:
    16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    Lust of the flesh is overcome by faith. Lust of the eyes is overcome by faith. The pride of life is overcome by faith.

    Not by will power. Will power is of the soul, and is actually a part of the pride of life in it self. Not by self denial. More pride of life. Not by guilt, fear, shame, or condemnation. All these are faith destroyers. These are the very things we need to stay away from if we are ever to overcome the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

    The preacher who preaches fear and condemnation into his flock is destroying their faith and confidence to approach the throne of grace when mercy is most needed. The teacher who promotes "will power" is turning you away from the true path of victory, which is faith.

    How then do we use faith to overcome the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life?

    1. Hold fast to the profession of you faith.
    2. Renew your mind.
    3. Crucify the flesh.
    4. Taking control of your flesh by faith.

    We have seen that the flesh is not going to be overcome by "will power" or "self denial". We see that the flesh is going to be overcome by faith:

    1 John 5:
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

    We see in Romans 10: 9-10 and Mark 11:23 that faith consists of two parts. One is heart belief, and the other is the vocalizing of what is believed in the heart.

    Romans 10
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Mark 11:
    23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

    So faith consists of two parts; believing and confessing, or believing and "saying the same thing" as what your heart believes. Therefore, we are going to overcome the flesh by believing something, and saying the same thing that we believe.

    Look at Romans 10:10 again:
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    The word righteousness means "rightstanding" or in our application, rightness. The heart believes unto rightness. The first thing you are going to have to do, is believe you have what you desire, and that is "rightness" of the soul and body. Though the flesh and mind rage, you must begin to believe in your heart that you have overcome the appetites and desires of the flesh. It will appear outwardly in your feelings and senses that this is not so! But you have to walk by faith and not by sight. This means you are going to call things which be not as tho they were. Begin to believe that you have control over the flesh!

    Believe that you overcome because "greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world". Now most people read this verse and think it is talking about satan. And of course satan needs to be dealt with. But as we saw in 1 John 2:16, that "ALL that is in the world" is lust and pride.

    1 John 2:
    16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    So when John writes "greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.." he is also talking about the "new creation spirit of Christ in you" being greater than the flesh part of you that exists in "the world".

    You can speak to your flesh and soul just as you could speak to a mountain. Of course we do not want to cast our flesh into the sea, but we can control it! We can confess what we are, and believe our flesh is coming into line with our confession. We can believe we have what we say.

    "Flesh, you are under control, and not raging. I walk in love toward God and my fellow man."

    Begin to believe this confession and say it. Do not give up if you fail. Know that you are on the road to complete victory over the flesh. There is light at the end of the tunnel. You have a plan and direction. It is just a matter of time before you begin to feel the effects of your faith. You have what you say! Do not speak words of doubt and defeat. Do not speak hopelessness and gloom. Speak words of victory and triumph. Through Christ we have the victory!
  7. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    Meditate the Word

    Psalms 119
    11 ¶ Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee.
    133 ¶ Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

    Overcome the world with the word of God. Meditate, or "ruminate" on the law of God. The Hebrew word for meditate is "ruminate" or to chew the cud. This means to take something into your belly, digest it, bring it back up, and chew it again. If you do this with the law you will begin to defeat your body and flesh with the Word.

    A number of years ago I bought a copy of Young's Literal Translation of the Bible. Young handles verb tenses very accurately, and his translation offers some excellent insights. Look at something I found in line with our discussion:

    Exodus 20 (YLT)
    3 `Thou hast no other Gods before Me.

    (Note the tense in these verses. They are presented, not so much as commandments, as they are confessions of faith by God about us!)

    4 `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, ...
    7 `Thou dost not take up the name of Jehovah thy God for a vain thing ...
    13 `Thou dost not murder.
    14 `Thou dost not commit adultery.
    15 `Thou dost not steal.
    16 `Thou dost not answer against thy neighbour a false testimony.

    These sound very much like the creative statements of God. "let there be light... etc..) This is how God intends for the righteous spirit of Christ within you to overcome the flesh. If you find you have particular areas that bother you, speak out of your spirit to those areas and bring them into line. (See the course on "how to prophesy" for instructions on how to speak out of the spirit of Christ in you). God intends for you to overcome the flesh, and has given you the tools to do this.

    Take what is inside you and put it on the outside:

    Eph 4:
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    How do you do this?
    Lets look at some more references.

    James three is talking about the evil which the tongue can do, but in these words is also a great truth.


    James 3
    1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. {condemnation: or, judgment}
    2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
    3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
    4 Behold also the ships, which though [they be] so great, and [are] driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
    5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! {a matter: or, wood}

    Again, James is speaking of the negative aspect of what the tongue can do. But look at the positive things the tongue can do:

    "...the same is a perfect man..." "...and able also to bridle the whole body..." "...we turn about (the) whole body..."

    Look at this understanding:

    "...though they (lusts) are driven of fierce winds (of the body) , yet are they (lusts) turned about with a very small helm (the tongue, the speaking of faith) , whithersoever the governor (the spirit of Christ in you) listeth..."

    Can you see the power the word spoken from your spirit has over your body? Faith overcomes sin. The power of faith is released by allowing the spirit to speak the words that are believed. You must speak to your body and bring it into subjection. There is no other way for your spirit to extend it's will over the body.

    Faith that works through love availeth much...

    Look at what Paul said to the Galatians in the famous fruit of the spirit chapter:

    Galatians 5
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    The OT law was the outward attempt to be righteous with the soul and the flesh. The New Covenant "availeth" by "faith that works through love". It is the spirit bringing the flesh into subjection by the love spoken word. The confession of what is written on the heart.

    14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. {ye...: or, fulfill not}
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    If we were to take this list of works and crucify them on the cross of Christ by faith (rather than by will power), we would allow our spirits to speak the faith confessions from out of our love:

    Thou dost not commit adultery
    Thou dost not fornicate (very good for those ensnared in porn)
    Thou dost not commit uncleanness
    Thou dost not commit lasciviousness
    Thou dost not commit idolatry
    Thou dost not engage in witchcraft
    Thou dost not hate
    Thou dost not commit variance
    Thou dost not engage in emulations
    Thou dost not engage in strife
    Thou dost not engage in seditions
    Thou dost not commit heresies
    Thou dost not envy
    Thou dost not murder
    Thou dost not engage in drunkenness
    Thou dost not engage in revellings

    Remember that this is not simply speaking these things out of you soul, or memory. Reading this out loud over and over again is not faith or the confession of faith. You must speak these things out of your spirit. This will be the voice of your conscience. When you are tempted or are grieved at a particular sin, you will feel or perceive the leading of your spirit on this matter. In your heart you will not want to do these things. SPEAK out of that leading. Just feeling it will not do it. It is faith that works through love that availeth much. Speak to your flesh and it will be crucified. If you are grieved because of a problem you may have with porn, you would speak out of the grief, and say (to you flesh): "Thou dost not fornicate". If you are grieved by a tendency toward being bitter, you might speak out of that grief and say (to you flesh): "Thou dost not engage in hate".

    Galatians 5
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. {affections: or, passions}
    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    The Bible says that the the law has been written on our hearts.

    Roma 2:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) {their conscience...: or, the conscience witnessing with them} {the mean...: or, between themselves}

    We have love in our hearts, which is expressed in the form of our conscience speaking.

    Faith that works through love availeth much.

    Speak out of the love of the spirit of Christ in you. Speak what is written on your heart. The words of God are written on you heart. speak these words to yourself, your body, your soul.
  8. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    Dear Hobart,

    Wow! That is a lot of work and effort you have put forth.
    And much of it is undisptable good gospel teaching,and I thank ou for it.

    But why do you say this is how we can never sin again? Do you know anybody [besides God] that doesn't sin? Doing all these things and putting all of what you have written into practice will keep us from sin.

    It will UNTIL we fail to do what you have exhorted us to do as the Bible exhorts us to do. When we fail then we sin. If we say we do not sin, then the Word tells us we are liars, and the truth is not in us.

    But thanks again for a great exhortation on walking in righteousness.

  9. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States

    Hey Mike,

    I agree, Hobart did do a good job.

    And, just to respond to this part of your post, the scripture ref your refering to is 1 John 1:10 and KJV says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

  10. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    Thanks for the kind words Mike.
    I understand your objection about 1 John 1. I understood the passage as you do for a long time. The Lord prompted me with the question a number of years ago and reminded me of the passage in chapter 3:

    1Jo 3:
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.
    7 My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous:
    8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

    He is drawing a clear and concise picture of the child of God and the child of the devil. If a person is a child of God, he cannot sin from his spirit. The part of us that has been born again is our spirit. If sins come from the spirit, then the spirit has not been born again. In like manner, if a person does righteousness(from out of his spirit), it is only because he is a child of God. An unregenerate person cannot do righteousness. Not even a single act.

    With these thoughts in mind I returned to chapter one and the common understanding of verse 8. I understood this to mean that we all have sinned, and even that we all still have the sin nature in us. But it cannot be both ways. Either we cannot sin from our spirit (as intimated in chapter 3) or we still have the sin nature in us (as the common understanding of chapter 1) and cannot help but sin.

    The solution is found to be in the specific wording of Chapter 1:6

    (WNT) If, while we are living in darkness, we profess to have fellowship with Him, we speak falsely and are not adhering to the truth.

    The profession here is not that we are without sin. The profession is that those who are in darkness can still have fellowship with God. He is not saying that we are all in darkness. He is saying that if you are in darkness, it is because you have sinned.
    Verse 8 picks up this understanding:

    1Jo 1:
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    He is talking to those people who, while in darkness and out of fellowship with God, are claiming to have not sinned. He is not talking to every believer here. He is talking only to those who are in darkness.
    Hence if you are in darkness, you got there through sinning.

    "if we are in darkness, and claim to still be in sinnless fellowship with God, we are decieve ourselves and the truth is not is us."

    My old understanding did not have an answer to the apparent contradiction between chapter 3 and chapter 1. When we see chapter 1 is only talking to those who have sinned and are in darkness, then it makes perfect sense.

    It is not saying we are all in sin, in darkness, out of fellowship with God, deceived, and have no truth in us... which is what we would have to assume if we in fact all still had sin in us. Only those who have sinned and who are in darkness are in this condition.
    Another problem with my prior understanding is: what happens when you do confess your sin and are forgiven? Are you not without sin at that point? If you are without sin, then can you not say that you without sin. Then you get into an endless loop between verse 8 and 9.... that does not make sense. If you are forgiven of all unrighteousness, then verse 8 does not apply to you. You are without sin.

  11. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States

    Thanks. But most of the work was done years ago during lesson preparation for an adult Sunday class I used to teach. I just reformated it for this forum.
  12. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    Dear Hobart,

    Do you know anyone who does not sin?

    It seems to me that you are not quite understanding John. One is cleansed from his sins and is clean. Yea that we should always we walk in the Spirit and never give into the flesh, which of course I know you agree.

    But we as humans do not always walk this way. I do not. No Christian I know claims a sinless walk. No one I know ALWAYS treats others the way the way the want to be treated and therefore they sin.

    Now i do not think that it was any different in the early days of the church. These letters were written years after the churches had been established. Of course some of the teachings were being put into practice even before the new Testament letter/books were written, but there was a need in each church [or city] or in several churches [or cities] that prompted these Letter/Books. The Christians who were the recipients needed to hear the truths written in them, including the rebukes, the reproves, and the encouragements. Therefore these christians, [and the Corinthian church comes to mind first] were not living as they should, and were not treating others as they ought to [sinning].

    So when John writes to his children in the Lord, he is telling them that they are people who still sin and that sin is to be abhorred. Similarly, paul writes and says that he is the chief sinner. The point is that as we mature in Christ, we go deeper into the Spirit and more of our old selves is brought to light. In seeing ourselves in this greater light, we then have the chance to grow closer to God by mortifying the fleshly ways as they are revealed to us. We need to choose to walk in the Spirit so as not to walk in the flesh. In this way we grow and mature as a christian.

    BUT, just because the sin we see now [and need to mortify] was unseen by us before, DOES not mean we were sinless due to our ignorance? No it means we were thoughtless. david asks forgiveness for the unseen sins. These sins are not unseen by God, but by David.

    John is telling us we are sinners and we are wrong to deny otherwise. But we are sinners who should not walk in sin. When the Spirit convicts us, we should repent and turn away from our selfish and thoughtless behavior, confessing our sin and being cleansed from it. We turn from sin because we love God and not because we are trying to be righteous in and of ourselves, but rather our righteousness comes from our resting in Jesus as 1st Cor 2:30 tells us: It is because of Him we are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God -that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    Therefore it is written, let him who boasts boast in the Lord.

    So who do you know that does not sin?

    Paul says this in 1st Cor. 4:4 [NIV] My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

    and in Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

    Now who needs justification but sinners? And who would stand before God and falsely accuse His chosen? We are sinners, BUT we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus who took our sins upon Himself and satisfied the wrath of God for us on Calvary.
  13. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States

    Thanks so much for putting this down so well.

    The Lord started showing me this stuff (through His Word) a few years ago.  I did not really put the speaking part into practice until maybe a little over a year ago.

    There is such a difference in the way my "walk" goes now.  There is more of a positiveness and I have seen the Word come to life more in my behalf.

    The verse I thought of (I don't remember if you listed it already or not) is 2 Peter 1.  He states, starting at v5 giving all diligence, add to your faith virture; and to virture knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Even though we know that it is quite likely that we will spend the rest of our life having God show us areas where our flesh and soul are weak, God still gives us the goal and the way to obtain it.
  14. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    I have lived for three months without sin (only when I was keeping track).

    My pastor tells of a time when for two weeks he knew no sin because he was constantly surrounded by the glory of God.  He says that that experience changed his life.
  15. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States

    Is your Pastor Barry Taylor?
  16. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    I don't know who Barry Taylor is.  But if your suggesting that he had a simular experience, then that only adds to the validity of the example.
  17. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States
    That's what I'm suggesting.
  18. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    You, me, and every other believer who is a child of God and has the spirit of Christ born into him.
    I am, of course like John, talking about sinning from the spirit. The flesh and the soul will want to sin and if you follow the flesh and the soul they (the flesh and the soul) will sin. You, that is the real you that is the spirit man, will not, cannot sin.

    Your reborn spirit cannot sin. I have been saved for 30 years and my spirit has never sinned. Never! It cannot.
    Neither can yours.

    A good tree cannot put forth evil fruit.
    The spirit that is of God (that is your reborn spirit) cannot commit sin any more than the spirit that is of the devil (that is the unregenerate spirit in the lost) cannot do a single act of righteousness.
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "I have lived for three months without sin (only when I was keeping track)."

    I'd have to be a doubting thomas again here and quote some scripture here...

    "1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. "
  20. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    You have this way of just twisting scripture.  I didn't say that I have no sin, or that I have never sinned (this is what the scripture is accually talking about), or that I would never sin again.  I only said that I went a period of time without commiting a sin.  You yourself have gone a certain period of time without sin (waybe a day, a week, or just an hour).  The point is that we don't sin every second.
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