2021: Confessional Lutherans and Rome Agree On Justification

[Thatgirloncfforums]

https://ilc-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021-Final-Report-of-Theological-Conversations.pdf

This is something to truly rejoice in. The significance of this is monumental because this joint declaration is signed with those churches who actually represent the historical Lutheran Confessions.

Praise be to God.

 

[public hermit]

All union between Christians is good. It's always late in coming, it seems, but God blessed by default.

 

[rturner76]

Are the Evangelical Lutherans in union on justification as well?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are the Evangelical Lutherans in union on justification as well?

This is a final report of the International Lutheran Council (ILC) and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity in the Catholic Church. In the USA the Lutheran members include the AALC and the LCMS.

I had not heard of this one before, having only heard of the earlier agreement on justification and on how some Lutherans had not bought into it. So this is significant as it is very recent and includes the LCMS. I skimmed it and will have to read it carefully to see what has been accomplished.

Here is footnote 1 of the text. It explains the terms 'Reform-Catholic' and 'Concordia-Lutheran' that are significant in the text:

"Ed.: “Reform-Catholic” and “Concordia-Lutheran” are terms coined to describe respectively the early and late 16th-century forms of the Lutheran movement. “Reform-Catholic” refers to the early Wittenberg movement that attempted to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within. The Augsburg Confession belongs to this phase. “Concordia-Lutheran” represents the developed form of Lutheranism that has become a distinct body, a “confession” within ecumenical Christendom. It is defined by the complete collection of documents in the Book of Concord, particularly the Formula of Concord. Cf. the corresponding distinction between “confessorial” and “confessional” in §1.3."

Did they agree on everything? Looks like they did a process of relectures (rereadings, re-examinations) of Lutheran and Catholic texts from the 1500's concentrating on Augsburg. Seems they have some commonalities and some areas that need more work, but I say that after only skimming the text. This might be very significant. One of the main creedally significant Lutheran bodies (LCMS) might be on board. That would mean more to me than the past Lutheran agreement which did not fully include the LCMS.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is a final report of the International Lutheran Council (ILC) and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity in the Catholic Church. In the USA the Lutheran members include the AALC and the LCMS.

I had not heard of this one before, having only heard of the earlier agreement on justification and on how some Lutherans had not bought into it. So this is significant as it is very recent and includes the LCMS. I skimmed it and will have to read it carefully to see what has been accomplished.

Here is footnote 1 of the text. It explains the terms 'Reform-Catholic' and 'Concordia-Lutheran' that are significant in the text:

"Ed.: “Reform-Catholic” and “Concordia-Lutheran” are terms coined to describe respectively the early and late 16th-century forms of the Lutheran movement. “Reform-Catholic” refers to the early Wittenberg movement that attempted to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within. The Augsburg Confession belongs to this phase. “Concordia-Lutheran” represents the developed form of Lutheranism that has become a distinct body, a “confession” within ecumenical Christendom. It is defined by the complete collection of documents in the Book of Concord, particularly the Formula of Concord. Cf. the corresponding distinction between “confessorial” and “confessional” in §1.3."

Did they agree on everything? Looks like they did a process of relectures (rereadings, re-examinations) of Lutheran and Catholic texts from the 1500's concentrating on Augsburg. Seems they have some commonalities and some areas that need more work, but I say that after only skimming the text. This might be very significant. One of the main creedally significant Lutheran bodies (LCMS) might be on board. That would mean more to me than the past Lutheran agreement which did not fully include the LCMS.

Our Synod, Lutheran Church Canada is also directly involved and on-side with this. The earlier declaration did not involve the Confessional Churches; and both that group of Lutherans and the Catholic Church released later statements that added caveats reflecting divergent views.

My Pastor mentioned that due to cultural and linguistic differences, Catholics and Lutherans often talked past each other in the past. Both groups strove to clearly define everything, so that both Churches could come to the table, and start discussions on the same page.

 

[Petros2015]

This is something to truly rejoice in. The significance of this is monumental because this joint declaration is signed with those churches who actually represent the historical Lutheran Confessions.

Very meaty document and interesting, but I see a lot of things in it that I like (just skimming), including its existence and tone in general

Loved this

3.3 Faith Becomes Effective through Love

“Thus it is evident to everyone, that all the faithful of Christ of whatever rank or status are called to the fullness of the Christian life and to the perfection of charity”.48 Faith precedes love; in love does faith become effective. Love is therefore not a contribution of man to the work of salvation, but the form of the justifying grace of God. In the interplay of divine grace and human co-operation God’s grace is always given primacy. Love itself is a gift of God, which takes shape in man. If people “receive all things with faith from the hand of their heavenly Father and if they cooperate with the divine will”,49 they practise love.

Catholic theology can so speak of co-operating with God’s will. But the basic sequence is preserved here: God is love; He pours His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Every believer hears the Word of God willingly, so that faith sprouts in love.50 The love is very closely related with justification by faith. The forgiving grace of God is always associated with the gift of leading a new life in active love, under the action of the Holy Spirit. In faith, love is accepted and made real.

I'm fairly sure I might (personally) tussel on this
Hopefully something is aiming at empowerment somewhere
Maybe that's my job, but I could use a little help here
I suppose that the Church and Sacraments then are part of the empowerment

4. Open Questions

4.1 The eschatological dimension of justification should be emphasised more thoroughly: Confessional Lutherans claim that God’s twofold action in Law and Gospel does not aim, in the first place, at the empowerment of the sinner to act responsibly; rather it confirms the sinner’s salvation from the Last Judgement here and now, and grants to him participation in the resurrection of the dead.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Our Synod, Lutheran Church Canada is also directly involved and on-side with this. The earlier declaration did not involve the Confessional Churches; and both that group of Lutherans and the Catholic Church released later statements that added caveats reflecting divergent views.

My Pastor mentioned that due to cultural and linguistic differences, Catholics and Lutherans often talked past each other in the past. Both groups strove to clearly define everything, so that both Churches could come to the table, and start discussions on the same page.

They did talk past each other increasingly. Then only polemically. Glad that’s mostly over. I noted that WELS is no part of this.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

They did talk past each other increasingly. Then only polemically. Glad that’s mostly over. I noted that WELS is no part of this.

WELS are not part of the ILC.

 

[chevyontheriver]

WELS are not part of the ILC.

No, I know they aren't. But I wish they too had come on board with this. LCMS and WELS are the two Lutheran groups I consider worth trying to agree with. The two Lutheran groups I have most experience with aside from a rather independent Lutheran charismatic group years before. WELS seems less likely to journey down this path. But I wish, actually hope and pray, they would. God may surprise me. But I'm older now and He would have to hurry a bit or I would have to live to a very ripe old age.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

The joy of heaven is that we will experience the unity we long for and see God working to restore the church on earth.

No, I know they aren't. But I wish they too had come on board with this. LCMS and WELS are the two Lutheran groups I consider worth trying to agree with. The two Lutheran groups I have most experience with aside from a rather independent Lutheran charismatic group years before. WELS seems less likely to journey down this path. But I wish, actually hope and pray, they would. God may surprise me. But I'm older now and He would have to hurry a bit or I would have to live to a very ripe old age.

 

[RandyPNW]

https://ilc-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021-Final-Report-of-Theological-Conversations.pdf

This is something to truly rejoice in. The significance of this is monumental because this joint declaration is signed with those churches who actually represent the historical Lutheran Confessions.

Praise be to God.

As an ex-Lutheran and still a friend of Lutherans, I'm pleased that Catholics and Lutherans are talking. I still am doubtful that Catholicism will ever, as a religious organization, submit to smaller or other communions. Their idea of unity is like China's idea of world unity--it consists of merging in with them and submitting to the dominant entity.

Sorry, there are things more important than ecclesiastical unity. True theological unity must be displayed in love between Christians of both communions. Not all will have it. But it does help to have agreement on doctrine, which is what the early creeds were designed to do.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I understand. That's why I am super encouraged that this paper was drafted with Confessional Lutherans and the Confessions in view. Neither aside should give up what's absolutely fundamental to them. But considering that both are Christian, and it's their respective fundamentals which make them so, I have hope that true unity can be accomplished.

As an ex-Lutheran and still a friend of Lutherans, I'm pleased that Catholics and Lutherans are talking. I still am doubtful that Catholicism will ever, as a religious organization, submit to smaller or other communions. Their idea of unity is like China's idea of world unity--it consists of merging in with them and submitting to the dominant entity.

Sorry, there are things more important than ecclesiastical unity. True theological unity must be displayed in love between Christians of both communions. Not all will have it. But it does help to have agreement on doctrine, which is what the early creeds were designed to do.

 

[Albion]

I understand. That's why I am super encouraged that this paper was drafted with Confessional Lutherans and the Confessions in view. Neither aside should give up what's absolutely fundamental to them.

and it doesn't appear that either side did give up much if anything when it comes to this particular doctrinal issue. If the process leads to other confabs and agreements on tougher issues, that might be the time to get excited.

 

[fhansen]

https://ilc-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021-Final-Report-of-Theological-Conversations.pdf

This is something to truly rejoice in. The significance of this is monumental because this joint declaration is signed with those churches who actually represent the historical Lutheran Confessions.

Praise be to God.

Thanks for this-somehow I missed this lastest news on the declaration. While much if it is a bit difficult to follow without being more schooled on the material involved, there's still much of interest here IMO.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

and it doesn't appear that either side did give up much if anything when it comes to this particular doctrinal issue. If the process leads to other confabs and agreements on tougher issues, that might be the time to get excited.

Justification and ministry are pretty tough issues. Neither side has to give up anything necessarily, insofar as they both speak the truth within their own theological frameworks. That each side sees the other as a legitimate expression of Catholicity and not a cause of condemnation, is enough. The Eastern Catholics for example do not subscribe to a Western soteriology and yet they are in full communion with the Roman See.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I certainly don't expect Rome to become Wittenberg or for Wittenberg to become Rome. We would lose so much if that happened.

Justification and ministry are pretty tough issues. Neither side has to give up anything necessarily, insofar as they both speak the truth within their own theological frameworks. That each side sees the other as a legitimate expression of Catholicity and not a cause of condemnation, is enough. The Eastern Catholics for example do not subscribe to a Western soteriology and yet they are in full communion with the Roman See.

 

[Albion]

That each side sees the other as a legitimate expression of Catholicity (within their own theological frameworks) and not a cause of condemnation, is enough.

Even if both of these sides did agree in print and/or in principle that each is a legitimate expression of Catholicity, that wouldn't do much of anything to bring about corporate reunion or even intercommunion.

I remember when there were some talks with the Eastern Orthodox and there appeared to be some words of mutual agreement. The church news services were alive with talk of the Great Schism ending!

And something similar happened when the ill-fated invitation was extended to dissatisfied Anglicans just a few years ago. The talk was all about the Reformation being put to rest; but only several thousand Anglicans took the offer and promptly discovered that the deal was for them to be allowed to become Roman Catholics.

The Eastern Catholics for example do not subscribe to a Western soteriology and yet they are in full communion with the Roman See.

The "Eastern Catholics" are part of the Papal Church. They merely are allowed to have different rites. Otherwise, it's the same church.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Even if both of these sides did agree in print and/or in principle that each is a legitimate expression of Catholicity, that wouldn't do much of anything to bring about corporate reunion or even intercommunion.

I remember when there were some talks with the Eastern Orthodox and there appeared to be some words of mutual agreement. The church news services were alive with talk of the Great Schism ending!

And something similar happened when the ill-fated invitation was extended to dissatisfied Anglicans just a few years ago. The talk was all about the Reformation being put to rest; but only several thousand Anglicans took the offer and promptly discovered that the deal was for them to be allowed to become Roman Catholics.


The "Eastern Catholics" are part of the Papal Church. They merely are allowed to have different rites. Otherwise, it's the same church.

We would become Roman Catholic. It only makes sense, since that is our roots. But nevertheless,it is also true that when we left we took a part of developed tradition with us. If we came back under the banner of Rome, why wouldn't we be allowed to bring our tradition with us?

 

[Albion]

We would become Roman Catholic. It only makes sense, since that is our roots.

But that's a course of action that's available to every Lutheran at present. The fact is, however, that even if masses of them decided to switch churches, it wouldn't represent a reunion of rival branches of Christianity. That's what I thought you were talking about when you wrote this:

But considering that both are Christian, and it's their respective fundamentals which make them so, I have hope that true unity can be accomplished.

But nevertheless,it is also true that when we left we took a part of developed tradition with us. If we came back under the banner of Rome, why wouldn't we be allowed to bring our tradition with us?

That would depend on what everyone involved thinks "tradition" in this case would mean. If you think that singing "A Mighty Fortress" in a Catholic Church would be allowed, well, it already is--in an altered version. But would those traditions include Lutherans agreeing to an infallible Pope heading their church? Hard to imagine that happening very easily.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Since we are already cooperating in various aspects of mission and social work to avoid duplicating services, one can hope for some sort of expanded fellowship. Reunion? Not even on the horizon at this point in time.