2019 was a rocky year for superheroes — until 'Watchmen' raised the bar for the genre

[durangodawood]

Wow.

If the most interesting thing about a character is that they are fat, gay, non-white, gender-fluids, female, etc....then perhaps the character isn't interesting. If these things truly don't matter, then building an identity around them makes a character boring.

Yeah. "The most interesting thing".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Since you do not experience systemic, institutional, and daily discrimination based on your gender, race, LGBT status, religion, etc.

Nobody does.

What you're calling for is ignoring history and also show a strong amount of hypocrisy.

Delving into historical fantasy isn't necessary for character building.

You sound mad that a film doesn't promote you and people that look like you anymore, ignoring the fact that film has promoted your gender, race, sexual orientation and religion for decades.

Promote??? Promote?!?!

Is this meant to be taken seriously? You actually think having a white character or straight character is somehow promoting those characteristics like some sort of nazi war propaganda?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah. "The most interesting thing".

Well? What else did you mean by "norm"?

These things are placed front and center for rewritten characters....they're constantly referenced, and stories are built around these superficial characteristics like they're super important.

 

[durangodawood]

Well? What else did you mean by "norm"?

These things are placed front and center for rewritten characters....they're constantly referenced, and stories are built around these superficial characteristics like they're super important.

Who said that identity issues ought to be "the most interesting thing"? Go ask that person.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Who said that identity issues ought to be "the most interesting thing"? Go ask that person.

You mean like this guy?

But I find it hard to imagine that the black small town Texas character would not find being black in that situation very formative. It almost seems fake to imagine its not

 

[loveofourlord]

lets see we've had end game, far from home two good movies and the capstone of over a decade, in four days were having crises on infinite earths one of the biggest super hero television moments....how is this a shakey year?

 

[loveofourlord]

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Shazam did quite well, and you left out Avengers: Endgame. Oh, and the Arrowverse shows are still going strong.

and about to have one of the biggest cross overs next to endgame.

6 currently running tv shows, 3 superman from smallville, superman returns, and the one from supergirl, THE only true batman, and many other cameo's :>

 

[durangodawood]

You mean like this guy?

No I mean the person who said being ____ should be "the most interesting thing" about them.

 

[Ironhold]

Hypothetical profiles for three characters from a G. I. Joe - esque series I'm drafting.

Let's see who can guess the race of each character ->

1. This character had two loves as a child: playing in the snow, and watching the planes come and go from the local airport. When he found out that the military operated in both the Arctic and Antarctica, he applied himself in school, got accepted to a major military academy, became a pilot, and convinced his superiors to let him attend arctic survival training school. Pilots with experience operating in cold environments are rare, and so he soon found himself at the forefront of many a snowy operation.

2. When this character was in Boy Scouts, his troop leader was an MMA fighter who, shall we say, frequently held troop meetings at the leader's gym. By the time he made Eagle, he was already a good enough fighter to credibly compete in the octagon... if he had decided to compete. Instead, a major motivating factor for his wanting to learn to fight was his decision to enter the Army and become a surgeon: medical personnel aren't traditionally allowed to carry weapons, and so he knew he'd need this level of advanced hand-to-hand training in a worst-case scenario. If anything, it's only made him a more potent fighter, as his medical training tells him where to strike for maximum effect while his MMA training tells him how to strike.

3. Imagine you're a ground-pounder. You can handle traditional enemy ground forces, but if they send some air units after you you're in trouble. Good thing you've got an anti-aircraft tank backing you up, right? Except... this tank's helmed by a guy whose life motto is "sometimes crazy works". Don't believe him? Ask him why the "kill" markers on his vehicle include multiple armored combat vehicles and a main battle tank. He'll tell you all about it...

 

[Ana the Ist]

No I mean the person who said being ____ should be "the most interesting thing" about them.

I don't know who that is....but it seems like a school of thought from the sjw crowd.

Take the female asian lesbian from Deadpool 2....I can't tell you what her mutant powers were. I think she only had about 2 secs of screentime using them. They were completely superfluous to her character.

What I can tell you is she's an asian female lesbian...those are the only important parts of her character. Like some dumb list to be checked off. She's just there in case some whiny people complain about the prevalence of white male characters in the movie.

 

[SummerMadness]

I think there is still a ways to go for progress to be made. Magneto is turned into a Jewish man, nary a peep. Watchmen highlights African American history and there seems to be incessant whining coming from some circles because unless the characters are white, there is a complaint. The responses and anger is hilariously predictable, and quite sad, especially when there are complaints about people from different genders, ethnic or racial groups taking on the mantle of famous comic characters... as if the mantle for a superhero has never been occupied by another person before. Like I said, hilariously predictable, but sad.

 

[Ironhold]

The responses and anger is hilariously predictable, and quite sad, especially when there are complaints about people from different genders, ethnic or racial groups taking on the mantle of famous comic characters... as if the mantle for a superhero has never been occupied by another person before. Like I said, hilariously predictable, but sad.

Have you ever stopped to look at *why* people are upset when the mantles are passed on?

At one end, people are upset because the characters receiving the mantles were wholly and solidly established as their own characters, and the mantle they're given overshadows that. Consider, for example, the decision to "kill" Captain America and have Falcon take the mantle. Falcon had, by that time, been fully established as his own person with his own dreams, wants, and desires. Then he got saddled with Cap's legacy, and his entire nature as an independent character got shoved out the window; instead, his new character is "replacement for previous guy".

At the other end, people are upset because the replacement characters aren't adequately sold to the public. For example, whereas in the MCU Peter Parker became Tony Stark's heir because he'd been Stark's student and was one of the most logical successors despite his inexperience, in the comics Riri Williams is a teenage wunderkind who was the most awesomest student ever at MIT, such that Stark didn't even mind her stealing the college's equipment to make her own armor because he was that magically impressed with her; when he went missing, all she had to do was prove how big a fangirl she was and she was in. This at best came off as her being somebody's wish fulfillment character, and at worst came off as a ham-fisted attempt to shove Stark aside for someone more "woke".

I'm trying to find all of the videos now, but YouTube host "YoungRippa59" (who is indeed black) has repeatedly explained this very same thing in his own fashion, noting along the way the shared sentiment that past a certain point it's simply better to let existing characters be existing characters and let original characters stand on their own two feet rather than wrenching things to fit a person's whims. Note that he sometimes swears in his videos, which is why I'm not linking them here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think there is still a ways to go for progress to be made. Magneto is turned into a Jewish man, nary a peep.

Turned into? He's been Jewish since 1981....when his origins were revealed.

Watchmen highlights African American history and there seems to be incessant whining coming from some circles because unless the characters are white, there is a complaint.

They took a story that wasn't about race...and made it entirely about race.

If that's the goal...why not just make an original work about race instead of tainting someone else's?

The responses and anger is hilariously predictable, and quite sad, especially when there are complaints about people from different genders, ethnic or racial groups taking on the mantle of famous comic characters... as if the mantle for a superhero has never been occupied by another person before. Like I said, hilariously predictable, but sad.

Watchmen Ratings Drop Again; Sheds Over 100k Viewers For Week 3

Ratings: HBO’s "Watchmen" Endures Decline For Episode Six

They started off with over a million....now they're down to almost half a million. The upside is once enough of these eggs are laid....projects, directors, actors, and the writers who made them will be finished.

 

[SummerMadness]

Have you ever stopped to look at *why* people are upset when the mantles are passed on?

Yes, I have and they're inconsistent.

At one end, people are upset because the characters receiving the mantles were wholly and solidly established as their own characters, and the mantle they're given overshadows that. Consider, for example, the decision to "kill" Captain America and have Falcon take the mantle. Falcon had, by that time, been fully established as his own person with his own dreams, wants, and desires. Then he got saddled with Cap's legacy, and his entire nature as an independent character got shoved out the window; instead, his new character is "replacement for previous guy".

At the other end, people are upset because the replacement characters aren't adequately sold to the public. For example, whereas in the MCU Peter Parker became Tony Stark's heir because he'd been Stark's student and was one of the most logical successors despite his inexperience, in the comics Riri Williams is a teenage wunderkind who was the most awesomest student ever at MIT, such that Stark didn't even mind her stealing the college's equipment to make her own armor because he was that magically impressed with her; when he went missing, all she had to do was prove how big a fangirl she was and she was in. This at best came off as her being somebody's wish fulfillment character, and at worst came off as a ham-fisted attempt to shove Stark aside for someone more "woke".

There is no difference between Peter Parker and Riri Williams. Peter Parker was not a student of Stark, he was simply thrown in as part of Civil War where Stark shows up at his home and recruits him. There was logical journey showing his great intelligence impressing Stark so much that you would consider him the proper successor. No, the only reason why there isn't complaints about Peter Parker's transition into Iron Man (as opposed to James Rhodes) and whining about Riri Williams comes down to skin color.

I'm trying to find all of the videos now, but YouTube host "YoungRippa59" (who is indeed black) has repeatedly explained this very same thing in his own fashion, noting along the way the shared sentiment that past a certain point it's simply better to let existing characters be existing characters and let original characters stand on their own two feet rather than wrenching things to fit a person's whims. Note that he sometimes swears in his videos, which is why I'm not linking them here.

Just because you find a black person who is a complaining water holder does not make his opinion more valid, the main problem with the "let the characters stand on their own two feet" is that it's an invalid argument. How many Flashes are there? How many Green Lanterns are there? How many kid/protege versions of an adult character are there? There are many of them, but the ones that catch the most grief are the female and racial/ethnic minority characters. Heaven forbid you choose anything other than a white guy for a character that has already been played by multiple characters (e.g., the moaning and complaining about using John Stewart in the Justice League animated series).

But your rant is a departure from the main point. Hooded Justice never had an origin, he was not changed or altered for this series. This series revealed his origin and presented the motivation for him becoming a superhero, everything from his costume to the likely reason he disappeared. It also dovetails perfectly with Alan Moore's complaint that many superheroes are "white supremacist dreams" and the show also serves as a perfect metaphor of how American myth ignores reality; Hooded Justice being white in the fictionalized American Hero Story is similar to The Lone Ranger ignoring its inspiration, Bass Reeves (we also find the same connection when it comes to musical genres like rock'n'roll).

The original:

Versus this ridiculous joke:

But Watchmen hasn't been controversial here, this is just the whining of a sliver of fanboys who don't even know the source material when they complain about characters like Hooded Justice. The show premium cable’s most popular new series of 2019.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, I have and they're inconsistent.

There is no difference between Peter Parker and Riri Williams. Peter Parker was not a student of Stark, he was simply thrown in as part of Civil War where Stark shows up at his home and recruits him. There was logical journey showing his great intelligence impressing Stark so much that you would consider him the proper successor. No, the only reason why there isn't complaints about Peter Parker's transition into Iron Man (as opposed to James Rhodes) and whining about Riri Williams comes down to skin color.

Riri is clearly a Mary Sue. Peter Parker is not.

It also dovetails perfectly with Alan Moore's complaint that

....his complain that his source material is constantly ruined by hacks?

But Watchmen hasn't been controversial here, this is just the whining of a sliver of fanboys who don't even know the source material when they complain about characters like Hooded Justice. The show premium cable’s most popular new series of 2019.

Woke garbage.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Who Is HBO’s ‘Watchmen’ For, Exactly?

This review hits the same problems I saw...

And that’s fine, nobody wants that fanbase anyway. But sometimes, Watchmen’s condemnation of racism feels absurdly on-the-nose, a world of lynchings, Klan hoods and race riots. Do oppressed minorities enjoy watching shows that tell them how oppressed they are? Or is this a self-congratulatory show that makes white people, critics especially, feel “woke” for watching?

I can’t help but notice that the racist characters in Watchmen are openly, often rabidly racist; there’s very little nuance, no character acting in a subconsciously racist manner – everyone wears their prejudices on their sleeve.

Bingo. It's a "white people are racist" fantasy that spends all its time patting itself on the back.

 

[SummerMadness]

The Incredible, Indelible 'Watchmen'

"Now: We have a god to kill."

It is a bold statement that Lady Trieu (Hong Chau) makes in the finale of HBO's "Watchmen" — boldness being part of the job description for a comic-book mad genius. It is also a kind of mission statement for this daring, breathtaking series, which in one season took American history and pop mythology, dismantled it down to its smallest atoms and reconstructed it in a form that was familiar yet wholly new.

The season finale wasn't the best episode, but it was a masterful season.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The Incredible, Indelible 'Watchmen'

The season finale wasn't the best episode, but it was a masterful season.

Possible the series finale...

Watchmen: Lindelof Doubles Down on No Second Season of HBO Series

 

[SummerMadness]

What Could Be in Store for Watchmen Season 2 (If There Is One)

The season finale of HBO’s Watchmen comes with a number of questions, including whether or not the premium cable channel will order another season. At one point, it seemed as though Watchmen was designed to be a one-season event, with executive producer Damon Lindelof saying the season represents “everything” he has in mind for the Watchmen world. HBO has since walked back his comments, though, as it likes to have dependable programs come back year after year.

Article contains spoilers if you have not watched the show.