20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[iamlamad]

You are totally avoiding the question. This is about the 6th time I have asked you and the 6th time you have ducked around it. We all know why!

Are there any believers in your supposed future 7-years tribulation after "your Pretrib rapture"?

Yes, of course. After the rapture, millions of saints who called themselves "Christian" but were not born again, will then turn to Jesus completely. John called them a "remnant" in chapter 12, because that is all that will be left after the rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

The two witnesses are called by God. Are they more beast than man? We are not told when they appear.

“Also I will give power to my two witnesses; and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.” They witness for 1260 days, but which 1260? Also they may be around for more, but John does not say. The narrative seems to state we should already know who these two are before the 1260 days start.

Yes we are: the "appear" right in the verse where they are first mentioned. If you study, you will discover that they show up just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week.

 

[iamlamad]

No!

The correct answered should have been YES. Look at the remnant in chapter 12.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Saints, believers, righteous, the church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, those who have faith and trust in God, sons of God, the redeemed, and any other human name you want to call them by are not in any of the Trumpets, Thunders, Satan's 42 months, or the 7 vials.

The two witnesses are called by God. Are they more beast than man? We are not told when they appear.

“Also I will give power to my two witnesses; and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.” They witness for 1260 days, but which 1260? Also they may be around for more, but John does not say. The narrative seems to state we should already know who these two are before the 1260 days start.

Yes, of course. After the rapture, millions of saints who called themselves "Christian" but were not born again, will then turn to Jesus completely. John called them a "remnant" in chapter 12, because that is all that will be left after the rapture.

It is Pretrib that says that believers in Jesus (a remnant) will go through God's wrath – namely their 7 year-trib. According to you, this means the wrath of God on the cross meant nothing; believers in Jesus (a remnant) in Jesus still have to face all the wrath during this “time of trouble.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, of course. After the rapture, millions of saints who called themselves "Christian" but were not born again, will then turn to Jesus completely. John called them a "remnant" in chapter 12, because that is all that will be left after the rapture.

Can you tell me where in the Olivet Discourse that a pretrib rapture is taught? I'm sure Jesus wouldn't have neglected to mention such a significant event, so I'm curious as to where He mentioned it.

 

[SeventyOne]

Can you tell me where in the Olivet Discourse that a pretrib rapture is taught? I'm sure Jesus wouldn't have neglected to mention such a significant event, so I'm curious as to where He mentioned it.

You shouldn't tell yourself that you are so 'sure'. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that our rapture is a mystery that he is revealing. If Jesus revealed it, then Paul would not be doing so later.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You shouldn't tell yourself that you are so 'sure'. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that our rapture is a mystery that he is revealing. If Jesus revealed it, then Paul would not be doing so later.

Can you give us one single Scripture that teaches your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

 

[SeventyOne]

Can you give us one single Scripture that teaches your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

I expressed to you several weeks ago that I wasn't going to ever willingly allow you to use my comments to preach or advance the heretical amillennial viewpoint. Nothing has changed.

 

[Timtofly]

It is Pretrib that says that believers in Jesus (a remnant) will go through God's wrath – namely their 7 year-trib. According to you, this means the wrath of God on the cross meant nothing; believers in Jesus (a remnant) in Jesus still have to face all the wrath during this “time of trouble.”

You do not accept a rapture. All alive will have to be judged making the cross worthless. Why do those in Christ have to be subjected to Satan at all? Or any of the judgments mentioned? You put all the church alive at that time into judgment. There is no remnant as neither of you posted the verse. God's chosen people the Jews are not the church. Israel did not give birth to the church. The Holy Spirit did. Her seed in Revelation 12 are all those athiest and the newly formed Sanhedren searching for their God, living in Israel this very day.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you tell me where in the Olivet Discourse that a pretrib rapture is taught? I'm sure Jesus wouldn't have neglected to mention such a significant event, so I'm curious as to where He mentioned it.

Why would Jesus tell unbelievers about a rapture? That is the hope of the believer. The only hope of unbelievers is God’s mercy at the GWT.

 

[iamlamad]

It is Pretrib that says that believers in Jesus (a remnant) will go through God's wrath – namely their 7 year-trib. According to you, this means the wrath of God on the cross meant nothing; believers in Jesus (a remnant) in Jesus still have to face all the wrath during this “time of trouble.”

According to you, this means the wrath of God on the cross meant nothing That is human reasoning; it does not mean that at all. What it really means is, many people did not get born again so were left behind. They could have. They SHOULD have. But they did not - for many different reasons - NONE of which were God's fault. He has been standing with open arms saying "come." By the way, it is not "pretrib" that says this, it is the word of God that says it.

 

[iamlamad]

Why would Jesus tell unbelievers about a rapture? That is the hope of the believer. The only hope of unbelievers is God’s mercy at the GWT.

There is NO HINT of mercy at the GWT. Those not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[iamlamad]

Can you give us one single Scripture that teaches your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

TRICK QUESTION, indeed, a silly question. Why would we look to "One single scrpture" to teach ANY theory. I have said over and over that we don't form theory or doctrine from isolated verses, but by EVERY end time scripture.
You know where to look for each part of your question.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You do not accept a rapture. All alive will have to be judged making the cross worthless. Why do those in Christ have to be subjected to Satan at all? Or any of the judgments mentioned? You put all the church alive at that time into judgment. There is no remnant as neither of you posted the verse. God's chosen people the Jews are not the church. Israel did not give birth to the church. The Holy Spirit did. Her seed in Revelation 12 are all those athiest and the newly formed Sanhedren searching for their God, living in Israel this very day.

I think you know, I was using your own faulty argument against you. It is the same with the non-mention of "church" between Revelation 4-19. That argument negates Premil. This is typical Pretrib.

 

[sovereigngrace]

TRICK QUESTION, indeed, a silly question. Why would we look to "One single scrpture" to teach ANY theory. I have said over and over that we don't form theory or doctrine from isolated verses, but by EVERY end time scripture.
You know where to look for each part of your question.

Exactly! That is why we are looking other extra-biblical doctrine. It is not in the Word of God. I think you know that. If you had an answer you would give it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You shouldn't tell yourself that you are so 'sure'. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that our rapture is a mystery that he is revealing. If Jesus revealed it, then Paul would not be doing so later.

Let's clarify terms here. When I think of the term "rapture" I think of 1 Thess 4:13-17 and that it specifically talks about all believers (resurrected and alive) meeting the Lord in the air.

The mystery that Paul talked about in 1 Cor 15:50-54 was not regarding us being gathered and meeting the Lord in the air when He returns, but rather was specifically related to the fact that we all will be changed to have glorified, immortal bodies "at the last trumpet".

1 Cor 50
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

In terms of us being gathered together when Christ returns, Paul never said that was a mystery. Because it wasn't. Jesus taught about that in Matt 24:29-31 (Mark 13:26-27).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why would Jesus tell unbelievers about a rapture? That is the hope of the believer. The only hope of unbelievers is God’s mercy at the GWT.

I don't know what you mean by your question. Can you clarify it?

 

[jgr]

God's chosen people the Jews are not the church.

God slew unfaithful disobedient Jews by the thousands.

Do you think they were His chosen people?

 

[sovereigngrace]

You do not accept a rapture. All alive will have to be judged making the cross worthless. Why do those in Christ have to be subjected to Satan at all? Or any of the judgments mentioned? You put all the church alive at that time into judgment. There is no remnant as neither of you posted the verse. God's chosen people the Jews are not the church. Israel did not give birth to the church. The Holy Spirit did. Her seed in Revelation 12 are all those athiest and the newly formed Sanhedren searching for their God, living in Israel this very day.

Rapture is not in the Bible. It is a man-made term.

 

[Timtofly]

I think you know, I was using your own faulty argument against you. It is the same with the non-mention of "church" between Revelation 4-19. That argument negates Premil. This is typical Pretrib.

Your reasoning does not negate premil. Your reasoning wishes away the 1000 year reign of Christ. Now you are saying Satan does not exist, neither does wickedness. Revelation after the seals has nothing to do with the church. If you keep saying it does, you are going to have to prove it. All I read is about sin and Satan. Revelation was not given to explain the 1000 years, which you deny exist. It only puts it into the timeline, which you also deny.