20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[keras]

Here is my water-tight evidence which you refuse to address:

The evidence of when the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is; Revelation 6:12-17.
The evidence when the Great Day of Almighty God happens is: Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 19:11

There is at least 10 years between those separate Days.
Believing they happen at the same time, contradicts scripture and a logical understanding of the Prophesies.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The evidence of when the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is; Revelation 6:12-17.
The evidence when the Great Day of Almighty God happens is: Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 19:11

There is at least 10 years between those separate Days.
Believing they happen at the same time, contradicts scripture and a logical understanding of the Prophesies.

Not so. That is because you reject the 7 recaps of Revelation, all closing with a vivid account of the all-consummating return of Jesus.

 

[ShineyDays2]

Isaiah 13:13...and the earth will be moved out of her place.

Isaiah 13:13 - "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger."

The Day of the Lord will, indeed, be terrible with wrath and fierce anger, far beyond all those verses you listed. It is also true that will there will not be any place for the sinner to flee to, or attempt an escape. But those who will have to face this at the end of this age act as though they don't know these things let alone believe them.

However, in scripture, such common figures of speech and strong imagery were often used by the prophets to describe great commotions, judgments, and revolutions. The figures are types that are taken from the images of furious storms and tempest, as when the sky, the clouds, the heavens, appear to be in commotion....Thus the hills, the mountains, the trees, the streams, the very heavens, are represented as shaken, and thrown into chaos at the presence of God when those without God realize just what the warnings of the prophets meant .

There are many comparable verses that I could have used but here are two: Hag 2:6, Heb 12:26,

Haggai 2:6..."For thus says the Lord o Hosts: Once again in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land:"

Heb 12:25-29..."See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. His voice then shook the earth; but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire."​

Compared with Isaiah 13:13, Revelation 16:18 expresses the same type of destruction language concerning mystical Babylon. Therefore, generally speaking, this sign is mentioned in connection with the end of the world, when a "new heaven and a new earth" are to supersede the old earth (Isaiah 66:22; Revelation 21:1 - NHNE)

Since believers do not face this dramatic end of the old, why do you continue "preaching to the choir" as the saying goes? Should you not be taking your fear-mongering wrath and destruction verses to those who need to wake up instead of those who are very aware of what God is going to do on the "last day?" Your usage of this forum is useless to us believers because we are saved from this type of destructive language....and I am not talking from the "pre-mil rapture" belief here but the genuine and only "rapture" on the last day.

Lastly, in Haggai 2:6, above he uses the phrase "Once again in a little while", which means "sometime in the future" and Hebrews 2:6 only uses the partial term "Yet once more" to indicate that God is going to put into action the many warnings by the OT prophets on the future Day of the Lord.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Isaiah 13:13 - "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger."

The Day of the Lord will, indeed, be terrible with wrath and fierce anger, far beyond all those verses you listed. It is also true that will there will not be any place for the sinner to flee to, or attempt an escape. But those who will have to face this at the end of this age act as though they don't know these things let alone believe them.

However, in scripture, such common figures of speech and strong imagery were often used by the prophets to describe great commotions, judgments, and revolutions. The figures are types that are taken from the images of furious storms and tempest, as when the sky, the clouds, the heavens, appear to be in commotion....Thus the hills, the mountains, the trees, the streams, the very heavens, are represented as shaken, and thrown into chaos at the presence of God when those without God realize just that the warnings of the prophets meant .

There are many comparable verses that I could have used but here are two: Hag 2:6, Heb 12:26,

Haggai 2:6..."For thus says the Lord o Hosts: Once again in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land:"

Heb 12:25-29..."See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. His voice then shook the earth; but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire."​

Compared with Isaiah 13:13, Revelation 16:18 expresses the same type of destruction language concerning mystical Babylon. Therefore, generally speaking, this sign is mentioned in connection with the end of the world, when a "new heaven and a new earth" are to supersede the old earth (Isaiah 66:22; Revelation 21:1 - NHNE)

Since believers do not face this dramatic end of the old, why do you continue "preaching to the choir" as the saying goes? Should you not be taking your fear-mongering wrath and destruction verses to those who need to wake up instead of those who are very aware of what God is going to do on the "last day?" Your usage of this forum is useless to us believers because we are saved from this type of destructive language....and I am not talking from the "pre-mil rapture" belief here but the genuine and only "rapture" on the last day.

Lastly, in Haggai 2:6, above he uses the phrase "Once again in a little while", which means "sometime in the future" and Hebrews 2:6 only uses the partial term "Yet once more" to indicate that God is going to put into action the many warnings by the OT prophets on the future Day of the Lord.

This is an excellent post!

 

[ShineyDays2]

This is an excellent post!

Thank you!
Our pastor just started doing a bible study on Genesis. We presently are doing the 7 days of creation. I noticed in it that the same type of Recaps of the creation of Adam and Eve in the Garden and the fall do the same thing. Moses, who wrote the book, did 4 recaps where each focused on something that was not included, or was not as detailed as one of the other 4 "scenes" were. It was then that I realized that Genesis and Revelations, and other figurative prophesies in the OT did the same thing.....which means that it is wrong to try and put these prophesies in chronological order.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thank you!
Our pastor just started doing a bible study on Genesis. We presently are doing the 7 days of creation. I noticed in it that the same type of Recaps of the creation of Adam and Eve in the Garden and the fall do the same thing. Moses, who wrote the book, did 4 recaps where each focused on something that was not included, or was not as detailed as one of the other 4 "scenes" were. It was then that I realized that Genesis and Revelations, and other figurative prophesies in the OT did the same thing.....which means that it is wrong to try and put these prophesies in chronological order.

Yes. I agree. Do you see the approximate 7 recaps of Revelation, all closing with a vivid account of the all-consummating return of Jesus?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Understanding scriptures like this, is so simple that I am astounded that you should even think that King Jesus would continue smashing the people He will rule over.
OBVIOUSLY, SJ; the 'smashing and breaking'; happens before He reigns.

When did I ever say I think that? I'm not Premil, you are. You're not recognizing that it isn't talking about Him actually ruling over anyone the way an earthly king rules over people. The "ruling" actually has to do with Him destroying them, just as Psalm 2:8-9 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate.

You have agreed with me before that all unbelievers will be destroyed on the day He returns, right? So, what do you do about that? You make up an unscriptural scenario of martyred believers being resurrected with mortal bodies and they are the ones you think will be on the earth for Jesus to rule over. But, scripture never teaches that any believer will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future. Instead, it teaches that we will all be changed to have immortal bodies when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54).

 

[ShineyDays2]

Yes. I agree. Do you see the approximate 7 recaps of Revelation, all closing with a vivid account of the all-consummating return of Jesus?

Absolutely!!! No doubt! It is something I can look forward to when the Lord calls me home.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The evidence of when the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is; Revelation 6:12-17.
The evidence when the Great Day of Almighty God happens is: Revelation 16:14 and Revelation 19:11

There is at least 10 years between those separate Days.
Believing they happen at the same time, contradicts scripture and a logical understanding of the Prophesies.

Your interpretation of the day of the Lord contradicts what is described in 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. What is described in those passages is complete destruction on the entire earth from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). No one can escape it. Both Paul and Peter make that very clear. How can anyone survive that unless they are changed to have immortal bodies before the destruction comes down?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you don't want to discuss Acts 3:19-21 directly, I am fine, we can move on.

If you don't want to discuss how your interpretation of that passage directly contradicts other scripture, I am fine, we can move on. It's clear to me that you interpret all passages of scripture in isolation without caring if your interpretation of any given passage contradicts another passage or not.

 

[keras]

Not so. That is because you reject the 7 recaps of Revelation, all closing with a vivid account of the all-consummating return of Jesus.

I do reject the wrong belief of 'recaps'.
Revelation describes a series of events; the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating with the glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next 1000 years, THEN the new heavens and earth will be for Eternity.

You're not recognizing that it isn't talking about Him actually ruling over anyone the way an earthly king rules over people. The "ruling" actually has to do with Him destroying them, just as Psalm 2:8-9 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate.

This is gibberish.

You have agreed with me before that all unbelievers will be destroyed on the day He returns, right? So, what do you do about that? You make up an unscriptural scenario of martyred believers being resurrected with mortal bodies and they are the ones you think will be on the earth for Jesus to rule over. But, scripture never teaches that any believer will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future. Instead, it teaches that we will all be changed to have immortal bodies when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54).

There will be many living people gathered by Jesus's angels when He Returns. Matthew 24:31 The resurrected martyrs will live among them, as their rulers and priests. Revelation 20:6b
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. Only then is Death no more, in Eternity.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 13:13 - "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger."

The Day of the Lord will, indeed, be terrible with wrath and fierce anger, far beyond all those verses you listed. It is also true that will there will not be any place for the sinner to flee to, or attempt an escape. But those who will have to face this at the end of this age act as though they don't know these things let alone believe them.

However, in scripture, such common figures of speech and strong imagery were often used by the prophets to describe great commotions, judgments, and revolutions. The figures are types that are taken from the images of furious storms and tempest, as when the sky, the clouds, the heavens, appear to be in commotion....Thus the hills, the mountains, the trees, the streams, the very heavens, are represented as shaken, and thrown into chaos at the presence of God when those without God realize just what the warnings of the prophets meant .

There are many comparable verses that I could have used but here are two: Hag 2:6, Heb 12:26,

Haggai 2:6..."For thus says the Lord o Hosts: Once again in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land:"

Heb 12:25-29..."See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. His voice then shook the earth; but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire."​

Compared with Isaiah 13:13, Revelation 16:18 expresses the same type of destruction language concerning mystical Babylon. Therefore, generally speaking, this sign is mentioned in connection with the end of the world, when a "new heaven and a new earth" are to supersede the old earth (Isaiah 66:22; Revelation 21:1 - NHNE)

This sort of downgrading and watering down of what the Prophets plainly tell us will happen, is denial at its worst.
It is a rejection of scripture and a scoffing of the warnings that the Lord has, in His mercy; given us.

That God HAS done things like flood the earth and caused the sun to go backward, should be enough for us to look at Isaiah 13:13 literally.
It is my belief that the multi billion ton mass ejected from the sun, as per Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1, will strike the earth a glancing blow.
A direct hit would be too destructive, maybe final.

So an immense pressure on the trailing side of the earth, will push it into a faster orbit around the sun. It won't change the day length, but will make the year length 360 days, which makes the time periods as given in Revelation match correctly. 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days; all exactly the same.

Since believers do not face this dramatic end of the old, why do you continue "preaching to the choir" as the saying goes? Should you not be taking your fear-mongering wrath and destruction verses to those who need to wake up instead of those who are very aware of what God is going to do on the "last day?" Your usage of this forum is useless to us believers because we are saved from this type of destructive language....and I am not talking from the "pre-mil rapture" belief here but the genuine and only "rapture" on the last day.

Lastly, in Haggai 2:6, above he uses the phrase "Once again in a little while", which means "sometime in the future" and Hebrews 2:6 only uses the partial term "Yet once more" to indicate that God is going to put into action the many warnings by the OT prophets on the future Day of the Lord.

Please tell me how I can get this message to unbelievers? Its hard enough to get Christians interested.
The conflation of the Day of the Lord's vengeance and fiery wrath, is not and cannot be, the same Day as the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
Isn't it obvious and logical that there must be some kind of dramatic event to commence the end times events?

BTW- I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven'. When Jesus returns, those who remain alive then, will be gathered to where He is, initially thru the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This is gibberish.

So, you deny that the following passages paint a picture of complete destruction?

Psalm 2:Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If you think it's gibberish to see these passages as speaking about Jesus destroying His enemies instead of ruling over them for a long period of time, then I guess the truth is gibberish to you.

There will be many living people gathered by Jesus's angels when He Returns. Matthew 24:31 The resurrected martyrs will live among them, as their rulers and priests. Revelation 20:6b
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. Only then is Death no more, in Eternity.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will happen when the dead in Christ are resurrected.

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Earlier in the same chapter Paul said that the dead in Christ will be raised at Christ's return.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

These passages make it clear that the dead in Christ will be changed and made immortal when the last trumpet sounds at His return. But you somehow have this occurring 1000+ years after His return which blatantly contradicts what Paul taught. You are denying the obvious here.

 

[ShineyDays2]

This sort of downgrading and watering down of what the Prophets plainly tell us will happen, is denial at its worst.
It is a rejection of scripture and a scoffing of the warnings that the Lord has, in His mercy; given us.

Just what part of Isaiah 13:13 was "downgraded" please tell? Yet, you continuously downgrade almost everything and everyone that contradicts your distortions of most everything you write because it is so out in left field it is hard to understand at times.

You have said in other places that you are a "messenger" told by God. BUT, Satan also has his messengers as in Paul's experience in 2 Cor 12:7..."And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated."

I am certainly not saying this is you, but God's true messengers (prophets) are always 100% accurate and their prophesies are never distorted whereas yours are consistently slanted to your CME's.

Isaiah 13:13 - "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger."
​

The Day of the Lord will, indeed, be terrible with wrath and fierce anger, far beyond all those verses you listed. It is also true that will there will not be any place for the sinner to flee to, or attempt an escape. But those who will have to face this at the end of this age act as though they don't know these things let alone believe them.

Therefore, I not only agreed with the verse, I expect it to be far worse for the unbelievers than you do evidently!

So, do you just automatically condemn anyone that disagrees with your interpretations???

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I do reject the wrong belief of 'recaps'.
Revelation describes a series of events; the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating with the glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next 1000 years, THEN the new heavens and earth will be for Eternity.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The seventh trumpet ushers in the time for "judging the dead". Is that not what Revelation 20:11-15 describes? How can you think the 7 bowls all follow the seventh trumpet when it's already the time to destroy "those who destroy the earth" and to judge the dead at the seventh trumpet? The seventh trumpet signals that it's the time to judge/condemn the wicked and reward believers. That happens at Christ's return at the end of the age just as portrayed in Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. It is at Christ's return that He will destroy "those who destroy the earth", just as it talks about in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:6, 2 Peter 3:3-13 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

 

[ShineyDays2]

There is at least 10 years between those separate Days.

Predicting future events with a timetable attached has been the demise of MANY past failures by so-called "prophets" in sheep's clothing.

 

[keras]

Predicting future events with a timetable attached has been the demise of MANY past failures by so-called "prophets" in sheep's clothing.

What did I predict?
I merely said there will be about 10 years of prophesied events before Jesus Returns. Commencing with the Sixth Seal world changer.

It is at Christ's return that He will destroy "those who destroy the earth",

We have already agreed on this.
Wicked people, but NOT the earth destroyed.
Your 'recaps' simply do not fit. The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are 21 different events.

Just what part of Isaiah 13:13 was "downgraded" please tell?

You denied that the earth would be moved from her place.

So, do you just automatically condemn anyone that disagrees with your interpretations???

God will condemn those who reject, deny, ignore, misapply, misinterpret, allegorize, spiritualize, or say the Prophesies are all fulfilled in the past.
I am not exempt, if I have it wrong. But I remain confident that those 100+ Prophesies about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, will be a CME.

If you think it's gibberish to see these passages as speaking about Jesus destroying His enemies instead of ruling over them for a long period of time, then I guess the truth is gibberish to you.

Jesus will rule over His friends. His enemies will be His footstool.
Only after the Millennium, will some become His enemies. Again; fire from the heavens will destroy them.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What did I predict?
I merely said there will be about 10 years of prophesied events before Jesus Returns. Commencing with the Sixth Seal world changer.

We have already agreed on this.
Wicked people, but NOT the earth destroyed.
Your 'recaps' simply do not fit. The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are 21 different events.

You denied that the earth would be moved from her place.

God will condemn those who reject, deny, ignore, misapply, misinterpret, allegorize, spiritualize, or say the Prophesies are all fulfilled in the past.
I am not exempt, if I have it wrong. But I remain confident that those 100+ Prophesies about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, will be a CME.

Jesus will rule over His friends. His enemies will be His footstool.
Only after the Millennium, will some become His enemies. Again; fire from the heavens will destroy them.

Date setting is not allowed here!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Predicting future events with a timetable attached has been the demise of MANY past failures by so-called "prophets" in sheep's clothing.

Every one of them suddenly rehash their false teaching when it doesn't occur in order to try and save face. But alas it is too late

 

[Guojing]

If you don't want to discuss how your interpretation of that passage directly contradicts other scripture, I am fine, we can move on. It's clear to me that you interpret all passages of scripture in isolation without caring if your interpretation of any given passage contradicts another passage or not.

I started this exchange with you by asking you whether you know what Acts 3:19-21 said, and you replied with a yes.

If there was present salvation for Israel the moment they believe, Peter would not have said Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:9, as stated, even 1 Peter 4:17-18 stated clearly

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

But when I asked you to tell me what it said, you did not even want to mention any of those 3 scriptural verses.