20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Guojing]

"Children of the promise" (Romans 9:8) are the Church (Galatians 4:28).

That has nothing to do with the post you replied to.

If you believe we have present salvation, we are not "scarcely be saved"

 

[jgr]

That has nothing to do with the post you replied to.

If you believe we have present salvation, we are not "scarcely be saved"

Your post has nothing to do with the original topic.

 

[Guojing]

Your post has nothing to do with the original topic.

You were the one who brought up 1 Peter to my post directed to another.

 

[jgr]

You were the one who brought up 1 Peter to my post directed to another.

You were the one who brought up Exodus 19:6 in a post directed to me.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You were the one who brought up 1 Peter to my post directed to another.

Why do you persist in avoiding every single text and argument? Do you think it enhances your position in the eyes of the reader? I believe it has the opposite effect.

 

[Timtofly]

When people talk about GWT, they are usually referring to the final judgement, they don't mean the throne where God sits in heaven.

It is the same throne since creation. Not sure why it is avoided like a plague. God can get up and walk around. It should not be just a figure of speech.


Besides, amil already see the GWT as the Second Coming. They just use the wrong text to make a point. Earth does not flee away at the Second Coming. Only the works of man are burned up. Creation remains in place. Except all the stars are now walking around on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus's Second Coming completes the 70 weeks or else it is no longer 70 weeks. When Jesus returns at His Second Coming, he rules the nations with a rod of iron, to hold sin in check. No more tyrannical dictatorships, and oppressive governments.

That is not the point of Daniel 9.

You are using flawed human logic.

 

[Timtofly]

When we pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” we are praying that “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” would be manifested in us and around us; that God would be given His place and that unrighteousness would be banished. When we pray “Thy kingdom come” we are praying for heaven to come down in supernatural power in our midst – just like at Pentecost. This is a petition for the glory of God to be seen in our world.

When Paul prayed it was to open man's eyes to who God really is:

"For God’s grace, which brings deliverance, has appeared to all people. It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age; while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.

Paul expected to see God on the throne in this physical experience. Over 1900 years have passed. The church should not give up on seeing this as a reality, just because it never came to pass in the first century. The glorious appearing is the 6th Seal, not an event 1000 years after that fact. When the Second Coming happens God's Will will happen on earth, because men will no longer be in spiritual blindness. They will still reject God sitting in all that glory on the GWT.

God's grace appeared to all people according to Paul, not just some elect. Yet we are still waiting for the veil of Adam's punishment to be lifted and to see the full glory of the GWT.

 

[Timtofly]

Not a biblical return then!!!

Moses did not come and lead them out of bondage.

The fig tree did bloom among the rest of the trees.

The return of Israel as a nation is the point, not their wholesale return to God. That can only happen at the Second Coming.

Clearly Israel is a nation. Clearly the Second Coming is still future.

 

[Timtofly]

It is time to move into the NT. The old covenant is gone forever. It is not the Jewish nation that matters. It is all about sinners in all nations under the new covenant. There is neither Jew nor Gentile today. There is no favoritism when it comes to color and races today. The old covenant is gone forever.

Current ethnic Israel is apostate and under the wrath of God. Like every other antichrist nation, they are of their father the devil.

How can they be under Satan's influence if he cannot currently decieve any nation? That is the only reason he is bound according to some amil.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How can they be under Satan's influence if he cannot currently decieve any nation? That is the only reason he is bound according to some amil.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

The Gospel embracing the Gentiles was a revelation made before there was even an Israel, the 12 tribes or before there was a Jew. This was a revelation given to Abraham in the book of Genesis.

It has always been God's plan that His glory would be seen throughout the whole earth. Time after time in the Old Testament the ancient seers foresaw it, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God spoke about the nations it was always in regard to salvation and global influence not mere real estate in the Middle East. The Old Testament prophets prophesied for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth.

 

[Timtofly]

The book of Revelation wasn't even written yet when Paul wrote his letters, so that's a pretty ridiculous question for you to ask.

No, of course not. I have never said that the second coming has already happened. You interpret what others believe about as well as you interpret scripture (not well at all). Why are you asking me ridiculous questions that don't have anything to do with what I believe?

Then Paul was not talking about the 7 different soundings of Trumpets in Revelation. He had not even read Revelation. Paul was only corroborating the OD. If one rejects recap of Revelation, that is rejecting human opinion. It is not rejecting God's Word.

Asking a question is an attempt at clarity, not an accusation of judgment. At least when I ask them. I cannot speak for all posters who just seem bent on judgment and condemnation.

 

[Douggg]

That is not the point of Daniel 9.

You are using flawed human logic.

Jesus's return completes the 70 weeks and the things listed in
Daniel 9:24.

 

[Timtofly]

The power to keep a vast majority of people in spiritual darkness as slaves to the fear of death because of not having any hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The Gentiles had no hope until Jesus died for the sins of the world in order to bring the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

They were not without hope. They were without the message itself. The Law was not the message of hope. Israel was as lost without hope as the Gentiles. Especially when the house of Israel turned to the ideology of the Gentiles. That has never changed. Satan has not been withheld from keeping many in darkness. Many are still in darkness today, even in the US, which has been a light in the darkness.

The Cross shed an equal light on Israel itself which was in darkness. Any claim to the contrary is just a form of dispensationalism where certain people had the light, and others did not. No one had the light until the Cross. What Israel had was the Law.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They need to accept that Christ is their promised Messiah, under the gospel of the kingdom (John 20:31), before they are forgiven corporately, as a nation, so that is where faith saves them.

Scripture does not teach corporate salvation anywhere. WHOSOEVER (whatever individual) believes in Him will not perish and have eternal life (John 3:16). It doesn't say WHATEVER NATION believes in Him.

If there was present salvation for Israel the moment they believe, Peter would not have said Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:9, as stated, even 1 Peter 4:17-18 stated clearly

There is present salvation for individual Israelites. Any of them who have put their faith in Christ are saved.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Salvation for Israel is always tied to the promised kingdom. Haven't you realized the final question the 11 asked of Jesus before they will never see him again in Acts 1:6?

It was not "So are we finally saved now that you have risen from the dead", but rather is about whether the promised kingdom will finally begin for them.

As for your last question, since the fall of Israel as a nation in Acts 7, all Jews are considered uncircumcised and hence are saved like us, thru the Body of Christ (Romans 11:11)

But when the Tribulation begins, the nation of Israel will once again be God's favored nation. That will be when all gentiles will be cut off once again (Romans 11:22)

You are taking Romans 11:22 far out of context. Romans 11:22 does not say that all Gentiles will be cut off.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

First of all, Paul only said "IF" they don't "continue in his goodness" they would be cut off. He didn't say they wouldn't "continue in his goodness". You missed the word "IF" there.

Also, Paul is not speaking corporately there, anyway. Each branch that he mentions refers to an individual person. There were natural branches (individual Israelites) who were cut off in Paul's day because of their unbelief. HOWEVER, not all of them were in unbelief, so not all of them were cut off. There was a remnant of elect Israelites (see Romans 11:5) who were not cut off. They remained in the olive tree.

Individual Gentiles (branches from the wild olive tree) were grafted in because of their faith. Paul warned those Gentile believers that they too could be cut off if they didn't "continue in his goodness". If they didn't keep their faith, in other words. That is not talking about them as a whole, but about each individual Gentile. Any individual who did not "continue in his goodness" would be cut off. Any individual who did "continue in his goodness" would remain.

The same is true for individual Israelites as well, which is why Paul said "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in". Paul was not speaking about them corporately abiding "not still in unbelief", he was speaking of them as individuals. Any individual Israelite who put their faith in Christ would be grafted in.

Turning what Paul wrote in Romans 11 into a corporate thing is not at all what he was teaching there. Again, each branch of the olive tree represents an individual person and the basis for being cut off is an individual's unbelief while the basis for being grafted in is an individual's faith.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They were not without hope.

Let's see. Who should I believe? The apostle Paul? Or Timtofly? It's the easiest choice anyone could ever make.

Ephesians 2:11 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands) — 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Is this passage in your Bible?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus's return completes the 70 weeks and the things listed in
Daniel 9:24.

How will everlasting righteousness be brought in at Jesus's return exactly? How about the end of sins? What about the anointing of the most holy?

 

[Douggg]

How will everlasting righteousness be brought in at Jesus's return exactly? How about the end of sins? What about the anointing of the most holy?

First thing to keep in mind is the 70 weeks are determined upon the Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem. Everything in Daniel 9:24 regarding the 70 weeks is relevant to them. Including the covenant to be confirmed for one week. It is not because they are more worthy than anyone else.

Everyone here agrees that the messiah cutoff, but not for himself is Jesus. It is the one thing here amongst all posters is that there is 100% agreement on. There is also 100% agreement among all posters here that Salvation is available to everyone, to take away sins power to destroy us forever.
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In Daniel 7, Jesus is given the everlasting Kingdom which will never be destroyed. That Kingdom has not been inherited by the Jews and Jerusalem yet, because they have not turned to Jesus.

When they turn to Jesus, they receive Salvation, putting an end to sins power over them to destroy eternally.

In Daniel 7:27, after the little horn's kingdom and dominion v26 is destroyed, Jesus's kingdom and dominion is given to the saints who the little horn wears out, v25, and Jesus's kingdom has dominion over all kingdoms here on earth.

Jesus's kingdom is the Kingdom of God. Which is the everlasting righteousness brought in when Jesus returns. And with righteousness Jesus will rule the world.
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Anointing the mostly Holy, is God placing Jesus as King upon his holy hill of Zion. Zion is a name for Jerusalem.


When Jesus returns, it will fulfill Matthew 23:39.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Back in John 12:13 before being rejected by Jerusalem,

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Anointing the most Holy, is God's anointing of the Jesus as the King of Israel, and the Jews and Jerusalem acknowledging Jesus as their king.

 

[Douggg]

Scripture does not teach corporate salvation anywhere. WHOSOEVER (whatever individual) believes in Him will not perish and have eternal life (John 3:16). It doesn't say WHATEVER NATION believes in Him.

Salvation is a personal matter agreed.

However, Jesus did indicate corporate acknowledgment of him as the rightful King of Israel in Matthew 23:39. Which for the Jews and Jerusalem to make that acknowledgement must corporately believe upon Him. Is the church not a corporate group of individual believers?

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Really?

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

You say the opposite. You say there will be countless more offerings for sin.

You fail to see: Calvary completely finished the Old Testament shadow and type. That is why there is no more sacrifice for sin. I find your belief extraordinary. Honestly! This belief should not be allowed on an evangelical site. It is a direct assault upon the cross. It undermines the finished work of Christ. It abrogates the new covenant.

Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

Who are the consistent literalists? Amils! We take Scripture at its word.

It is both alarming and sad how many (that sincerely profess Christ) champion the re-starting of rival sin offerings in the future to compete with Calvary when Christ fulfilled and eternally removed them at the Cross. Most of this error has emanated from false teaching of men that should know better. The fact is, the New Testament totally forbids the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. Their expectation to return to the Old Testament type, shadow and figure is gravely misplaced.

It is as if Christ’s perfect life, atoning death and glorious resurrection are not enough for Premils; not perfect enough, not satisfactory enough, and not final enough.

Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

Since there is no sin in the Millennium reign of Christ there will be no need for a sin offering.

Christ already covered all sin issues in the next Millennium.