20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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sovereigngrace

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No, it is you saying that them in the old testament had salvation, not me. I have been saying them in the old testament had hope of salvation.

So it is you who is saying that them in the old testament had a different way of salvation, since you are saying they already had salvation.


Yes, I hear that. But it is inconsistent with your position that them in the old testament already had salvation.

It was more than a hope. It was salvation! The same salvation we enjoy today though the regenerating power of the Spirit. Read the numerous proof-texts to that effect in the OT. Please read #4113 which you avoided. It shows they enjoyed the same salvation as us.
 
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Douggg

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The sacrifice and resurrection of the Messiah are throughout the Old Testament. Psalm 22, written by King David a millennium before Christ, gives us the very perspective of the Lord hanging on the cross.
No one understood God's Way of salvation until after the cross and resurrection. It was kept a secret, a mystery.

1Corinthians2:
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If Abraham had salvation in Jesus, His death and resurrection three days later for propitiation of sin - then why did Abraham sacrifice a ram instead of Issac?

Is there any verse in the old testament that God would sacrifice His Own Son for propitiation for the sins of mankind?

Also, why did them you say had salvation, without Jesus having died for their sins and rose again from the grave overcoming death - do animal sacrifices? Even so, in the temple?

And don't you say that if another temple is built where sacrifices are done would be an affront to God? Because salvation is based on the shed blood of Jesus, and not animal sacrifices.
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Abraham and all in the old testament did not have salvation - they had hope for salvation, and they had faith in God which righteousness, not salvation, was credited to them.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man, Abraham and Lazarus were not in heaven, but paradise.

When Jesus brought back Lazarus from the dead, did Lazarus testify of what it was like in heaven?

Lazarus never departed this life. He simply slept until Jesus spoke to him.

After the penitent thief requested that the Lord would “remember” him when He comes into “thy kingdom.” The Lord immediately responded “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

Right from the outset, we see the definite connecting of entering paradise with entering the heavenly kingdom. To say otherwise is to butcher the text. Why would Jesus promise this thief paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

Was Abraham’s bosom not paradise?

We need to 1st rewind the tape to the beginning and remember that God’s perfect will for man was that he would abide in paradise forever. This represented perfect uninterrupted communion with God. When man fell he was separated from God. That perfect communion was broken.

As we look at the Old Testament we see that fallen man could not handle the holy presence of God after this, even when he was forgiven. There were only intermittent manifestations of the Shekinah glory. Generally, this glory was hidden behind a curtain in the temple, and was only experienced once a year by once person – the high priest.

Abraham’s bosom was not God’s perfect plan. Hades itself was “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41).

There is not one single passage Old or New Testament that describes Abraham’s bosom as Paradise.

Why would Abraham’s bosom not be Paradise?

Even the Old Testament believers going there was a result of the fall and a constant reminder of the victory Satan secured over man in the Garden.

Abraham’s bosom was not Paradise. After all: Paradise is where God is. Paradise is where there is perfect peace, perfect order and perfect uninterrupted communion with Him. It is where the will of God is supreme.

Abraham’s bosom was God’s permissive will and was a reality that had to be rectified. After all the Old Testament redeemed were still separated from God – something that did not constitute Paradise.

Paradise is a Persian term meaning a royal garden or a hunting-park. It gradually over the years became a synonym for Eden. The Hebrew word pardes (פרדס) occurs three times in the Old Testament, but never directly in the context of Eden. However, every time it refers to orchards / gardens. It can be found in the Song of Solomon 4:13, Ecclesiastes 2:5 and Nehemiah 2:8.

Genesis 2:8-9: “And the LORD God planted a garden (paradeisos) eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden (paradeisos), and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

The Greek word for paradise (paradeisos) is used 27 times in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint). The first thirteen times are in Genesis 2 and 3, all references to the Garden in Eden, of course. Other references in the Old Testament to the Garden in Eden use this same Greek word. But it is also employed to refer to a beautiful Royal garden in Scripture.

The Greek New Testament that Christ and the Apostles often used which was written in the 3rd century BC.

It is in the Jewish apocalyptic literature and in the Talmud that Paradise gets its association with the Garden of Eden (and its heavenly prototype).

Genesis 3:23-24: “Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden (paradeisos) of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

This was Paradise lost!!

Man was not allowed to go into the presence of God – only under certain circumstances.

The priest once a year on the day of atonement.

New Testament

Paradise was lost right up until the cross.

In the New Testament Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem.

When Jesus prophesied to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

Was Abraham’s bosom paradise?

He was about to secure the victory that would allow the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise.

He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realise that.

It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
 
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Douggg

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It was more than a hope. It was salvation!
They did not have salvation - or else Jesus would not had to have died on the cross for removal of their sins. You are claiming that they had salvation apart from what Jesus did.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I just showed you the clear OT evidence and you completely avoided/rejected it. They knew more than you are willing to acknowledge/accept. I refer you back to the OT evidence.
 
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sovereigngrace

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They did not have salvation - or else Jesus would not had to have died on the cross for removal of their sins. You are claiming that they had salvation apart from what Jesus did.

Scripture trumps man's opinions.

Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.

Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.


Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Isa 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.

Jon 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

Hab 3:18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
 
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Douggg

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I just showed you the clear OT evidence and you completely avoided/rejected it. They knew more than you are willing to acknowledge/accept. I refer you back to the OT evidence.
I am going to stop my part of the discussion, but it is becoming absurd at this point what you and jgr are saying. You are going to keep saying what you are saying and I am going to keep saying what I am saying.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am going to stop my part of the discussion, but it is becoming absurd at this point what you and jgr are saying. You are going to keep saying what you are saying and I am going to keep saying what I am saying.

I understand. Numerous Scriptures have been left unaddressed or avoided in our discussion by you. But it is impossible to fight with the sacred text.
 
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sovereigngrace

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1 Corinthians 2:6-8 does not say God's Way of salvation was kept a secret, a mystery until after the cross and resurrection. That is you saying that. I have showed you multiple Scripture that refutes that. Notably, you avoided every single passage.

A mystery is not something that is not known it is rather something that is only gleaned by spiritual revelation. One has to have eyes to see and ears to hear to grasp it. Most Israelis didn't have that.
 
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ShineyDays2

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Ephesians 2:11-12

You remove that scripture from my original reply to SG, and then claimed there was no scripture,...(insult removed)
I did not address Eph. 2:11-12 because it does not reflect what you had said.
A gentile in the OT, even if he were to sacrifice animals, his sins are still not covered/forgiven.

In the OT, without joining Israel, he can sacrifice all the animals he want and he is still going to hell. (Ephesians 2:11-12)
In the 'International Standard Bible Encyclopedia' below there is a section that contradicts what you say above in regards to a non-Israelite going to hell if he did not join Israel.

2. Relation to Sacrifice and Ritual: (ger = sojourner or stranger)

Nearly all the main holy days apply to the "ger". He was :
But he could not keep the Passover unless he underwent circumcision (Exodus 12:48).​



 
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Timtofly

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In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, why was Abraham and Lazarus in paradise, but not heaven?

Because at the time of the story, they were in the place of the righteous dead, but they were not yet saved, and thus were not in heaven.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
This place has two names?

When did God open Paradise and let Adam's family back in?
 
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Guojing

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Not so! Gentiles would be exclusively saved through Israel's Messiah alone. Paul, in Galatians 3:8-9, shows that Abraham was saved through the same inspired Gospel as we are today. It was the good news of salvation, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It says: “the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

The same glorious Gospel runs from the Old to the New Testament. It involves one ongoing progressive harmonious revelation of the person and work of Christ. He is man’s only redeemer. He is man’s only hope. Notwithstanding, the Old Testament saints were looking at our Savior from a more obscure perspective, and their revelation of Him was more veiled than that of the new covenant saints. However, they embraced the same overriding life-changing message.

The old covenant saints were looking forward with anticipation to Christ’s earthly assignment on man’s behalf, while the new covenant Christian is looking back to His victorious earthly ministry. Salvation came in both testaments through the enlightening power of the Gospel. We see in this passage that it the glad tiding of good news that we enjoy today was proclaimed to Abraham and he embraced it by faith.

Repeated Scripture shows the continuity between the old covenant Gospel message and the new covenant Gospel message. It also shows the harmony between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

1 Peter 4:4-6, “they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Previous generations have heard the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those that had eye to see embraced Him, those that were blind rejected Him. There is one Gospel that has gradually developed through clearer revelation. All the truth we find in the New Testament can normally be found in the Old Testament, albeit sometimes veiled. This not does in any way suggest 2 Gospels. There is only one Gospel, one faith, one overall covenant of grace, one election and one salvation.

Hebrews 3:17-19 4:1-2: with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The writer to the Hebrews is here showing us that the Gospel was indeed preached onto natural Israel in the Old Testament. This is the same Gospel that we have today. This Gospel produced the same fruit then, in those that got it, as it does in us today. Those who rejected that liberating message back then faced the same awful consequences as those who do the same today. The Gospel in essentially the good news of Jesus Christ. He is man’s only Savior. He is man’s only hope. The Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to His appearing. We today look back and rejoice in His appearing 2000 years ago.

The Old Testament sets forth a Gospel theme consistent with the New Testament that men were saved from sin by grace through saving faith in the Lord and His promises.

The Gospel message was a prophetic message predicting the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. Christ was the central focus of the Old Testament. His life, death and resurrection are man’s only hope – past, present and future.

Alright, can see that you are indeed a covenant theologian. You really like their Covenant of Grace teaching.
 
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Guojing

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I did not address Eph. 2:11-12 because it does not reflect what you had said.

In the 'International Standard Bible Encyclopedia' below there is a section that contradicts what you say above in regards to a non-Israelite going to hell if he did not join Israel.

2. Relation to Sacrifice and Ritual: (ger = sojourner or stranger)

Nearly all the main holy days apply to the "ger". He was :
But he could not keep the Passover unless he underwent circumcision (Exodus 12:48).​




why don't you quote Ephesians 2:11-12 and explain why you don't think that a gentile who did not join Israel is without hope in time past, no matter what he does?
 
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Guojing

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If they repented and believed the gospel of the kingdom, they were saved.

If they did not, they were lost.

As I said.

As Scripture tells us.

As I said, you being a covenant theologian, will naturally prefer to interpret Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24 in another way, that the gospel of the kingdom is directed to both Jews and gentiles.

I disagree with your interpretation but I understand it is truth for you.
 
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Guojing

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I am going to stop my part of the discussion, but it is becoming absurd at this point what you and jgr are saying. You are going to keep saying what you are saying and I am going to keep saying what I am saying.

Do you agree that they are preaching covenant theology doctrines too?

The doctrine that OT saints "looked forward to the cross" and hence is also saved like all of us in the Body of Christ, is definitively covenant theology.
 
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Douggg

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Do you agree that they are preaching covenant theology doctrines too?

The doctrine that OT saints "looked forward to the cross" and hence is also saved like all of us in the Body of Christ, is definitively covenant theology.
I don't know enough about covenant theology to say for certain, but it appears that way.
 
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Guojing

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I love the truth. Now, are you going to address the sacred text?

You are interpreting scripture thru their grid. Since you are unaware you are doing that, you will naturally believe that grid is the only way to interpret scripture, and hence cannot understand why others, who don't use that same grid, would interpret otherwise.

That is why people like Douggg is expressing some degree of frustration, not that you disagree with him, but you simply cannot understand where he is coming from.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are interpreting scripture thru their grid. Since you are unaware you are doing that, you will naturally believe that grid is the only way to interpret scripture, and hence cannot understand why others, who don't use that same grid, would interpret otherwise.

That is why people like Douggg is expressing some degree of frustration, not that you disagree with him, but you simply cannot understand where he is coming from.

Not so! I totally understand where you are both coming from. I just totally disagree with it. Like many here, I abandoned the Dispy school (and Pretrib/Premil) because it didn't add up and was clearly unbiblical to me.

Both of your failures to answer the simple biblical arguments presented above reinforce what I am talking about.
 
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