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20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, May 15, 2020.

  1. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    16 of them are your own private opinion. No Scripture written to refute your private opinion. Private opinion itself is considered refuted. At least that is what they tell me about my post.
     
  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Acts 8:27 explains about the Ethiopian:

    27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

    As for Acts 2, right there:


    6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

    7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

    8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

    9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

    10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

    11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

    12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
     
  3. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I see, well, to me, they have effectively joined the nation of Israel, so yes, I won't deemed them as gentiles too (Exodus 12:48, Esther 8:17)
     
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Scriptures shows that repentant Gentiles would join faithful Israel as the Gospel started to spread out in the book of Acts. That growth has continued for 2000 years. The believing Gentiles have been integrated into the remnant camp of Israel under the new covenant. They are the promised “children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). They have been grafted into the “good olive tree” (Romans 11:17-24). They are “fellowcitizens” with the Old Testament saints of the “citizenship of Israel” (Ephesians 2:10-19). They are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16). They are “the circumcision” today (Philippians 3:3, and Colossians 2:11-14). The Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ over this past 2000 years do not form a new people of God. They become part of the one already existing people of God.
     
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  5. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    That is your opinion, which I respect but I disagree.

    If those gentiles who joined Israel in the OT are also willing to believe in Jesus as their Messiah, which is the gospel of the circumcision, they will then become the little flock.

    True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

    They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

    The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

    As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11).

    All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

    But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
  6. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    They would be Gentiles who became Jews who became into Christ.

    Unless they were just Hebrews from the start and lived in Gentile lands as cultural Gentiles. One could still follow the law and be a cultural native with a foreign tongue as well as a Hebrew upbringing.
     
  7. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Yes, as Exodus 12:48 and Acts 15:1 showed, in the OT, a male gentile who is willing to undergo physical circumcision and follow the Law of Moses, in God's eyes at least, will be indistinguishable from anyone who is born a Jew in the nation of Israel.

    So a gentile in the OT could still be saved, but he had to get it thru the nation Israel.

    Thank God for this current dispensation of grace where we former gentiles no longer needed to go thru Israel for our salvation. We get salvation thru the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:7)
     
  8. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Not so! I presented biblical facts. The Bible makes clear, only the second birth can create “a new creature” – nothing else. That is why Paul commences by saying, in Galatians 6:16, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Galatians 6:15). Those who subject themselves to this divine decree (namely, giving their life to Christ), will, irrespective of race, experience the peace of God and the mercy of heaven.

    The New Testament is constantly reminding us that we are saved by grace and not by race; and that when we are saved we become one unique spiritual race. The Church in fact is a spiritual nation with it passport stamped in heaven.

    We should carefully consider what verse 16 is actually saying, as so many people misinterpret it: “as many as walk according to this rule (namely not looking to any hope or advantage in your natural birth but rather in a spiritual new birth), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

    This is not telling us that there is a group of Gentile Christians that “walk according to this rule” and then there is another group of Jewish Christians that are called “the Israel of God” (as some argue). Such an interpretation would totally undo everything the writer has just taught. It would butcher the text. The “as many as walk according to this rule” are plainly all believers. Paul message is crystal clear: there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile today. Both equally experience the gift of new creation life in Christ Jesus. This totally tears apart the Futurist argument in regard to 2 distinct groups here.

    Dispensationalists turns Paul’s whole argument on its head and make it nonsensical by trying to maintain a distinction between Jewish believers and Gentile believers, when that was actually the opposite to Paul’s intent and totally opposite to what he was teaching in this passage. They put a division in Galatians 6:15-16 between Jewish and Gentile believers that actually contradicts everything that Paul was actually teaching and trying to repudiate in the text. He was actually demonstrating that one’s ethnic standing meant nothing when it comes to the blessing and favour of God, but rather it is only one’s spiritual standing that counts. He then adds a postscript: “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

    So, are you saying that there is a group of Jews that believe in Jesus but are not part of the body of Christ or "in Christ" but yet are supposedly saved by keeping the Law of Moses?

    What then is their ticket to eternal life if anything? Who exactly is their Savior then? How are these Israelites saved if it is not through the blood of Christ? How many types of salvation do you hold to?

    According to your Dispy teachers, but not according to Scripture! You are trying to take us back under the old covenant arrangement. But it is gone forever. Christ has abolished it.

    You have repeatedly been shown strong Scripture that there is only people of God throughout time. You will never be able to cobble Scripture together to support Dispensationalism. That is because it does not fit! This is spiritual apartheid you are promoting. This is forbidden under the new covenant.

    I notice you ducked around most of my New Testament references as they negate your views. I will repost:

    Scriptures shows that repentant Gentiles would join faithful Israel as the Gospel started to spread out in the book of Acts. That growth has continued for 2000 years. The believing Gentiles have been integrated into the remnant camp of Israel under the new covenant. They are the promised “children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). They have been grafted into the “good olive tree” (Romans 11:17-24). They are “fellowcitizens” with the Old Testament saints of the “citizenship of Israel” (Ephesians 2:10-19). They are “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16). They are “the circumcision” today (Philippians 3:3, and Colossians 2:11-14). The Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ over this past 2000 years do not form a new people of God. They become part of the one already existing people of God.

    You obviously have no answer to this strong Scripture. You are actually fighting it with your teaching. Your careful avoidance of it is testimony to that. You or no Dispy has any answer to this water-tight evidence.

    Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

    Jesus says there is now "one fold, and one shepherd" whereas you promote two folds. Sorry, I go with Jesus on this (once again) not Dispensationalism!

    The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

    Jesus brought a radical revolutionary message to the early Jewish disciples. He told them that there are others that are not of this flock (namely not of the Jewish race) that belong to Him, who will be integrated into His sheepfold. He was talking here of the Gentiles. What is more, He describes how these two peoples (both Jews and Gentiles) would be united together in Him and become one flock! Jesus is here acknowledging that salvation would not be limited to the Jewish race. He was predicting that the Gospel would expand out and embrace the nations. He explains that there would then be a fusion of the believing element of both ethnic groups into one cohesive believing sheepfold – with Him as a Shepherd. This indeed happened 2000 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  9. Moriah's Song

    Moriah's Song Active Member

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    Gal 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
    16- Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.​

    To paraphrase 15 & 16 in order to get the intended message I would rewrite write it this way....

    "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision gets anyone saved. Only "a new creation" does. But peace and mercy comes to all who walk by the rule of becoming "a new creation." It's only the "new creation" that makes both the Jew and the Gentile co-members of the same body of Christ are "the Israel of God."
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    And why some reason that this equals some form of replacement theology, is beyond me? No one is being replaced, ppl are being added, not replacing anyone instead.
     
  11. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You should understand Galatians 6:16 using the KJV instead of paraphrasing from another translation.

    Now, the "and" is explicitly in the KJV so you don't have to sneak that in, unlike what you did for the previous debate about Acts 2:5.

    But of course, I see you instead, quietly use a version that now drops the critical word and

    I can certainly understand your motivation for doing the opposite for Galatians 6:16
     
  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Again you are offering your interpretation, I am offering mine.

    You avoided Acts 21:18-25 where James distinguished between the little flock and the Body of Christ, in terms of law keeping.
     
  13. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    The term RT has developed a negative connotation so many are wise enough to avoid using, so many covenant theologians use the term Fulfillment Theology instead, which is what you are doing here.

    What are some misconceptions about covenant theology? | Reformed Theological Seminary
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sovereigngrace presented a classic resounding rebuttal here of the dispensational attempt to racialize this inspired and inspirational portion of God's Word.

    You should review it.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dispens aren't wise enough, so they continue to use RT.

    However, what they preach instead is in fact RB, Replacement Biology, which attempts to replace God's one Holy Chosen People, His Church; with two peoples, based upon their fallacious understanding of biology.
     
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    More avoidance. That is what you get when you engage with Dispensationalism.

    Do you even read what I write? Jesus said there is one flock and one shepherd. You disagree. The above refutes Dispensationalism.
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    James in acts 21 did not view it that way, read what he stated.
     
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    I presented this to another Dispy a week ago.

    Galatians 6:15-16 states, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on [Gr. epi] them, and mercy, even on [Gr. kai epi] the Israel of God.”

    You attempt to create two peoples of God in this reading, despite the fact that Paul’s whole import in this reading is that there is only one harmonious people of God. Dispensationalists make much of the words “and upon” (kai epi) and present this as proof that there is a distinction among God’s people. However, this flimsy argument is quickly nullified by (1) looking at the whole trust of Paul’s argument, (2) taking a closer look at the original Greek and (3) exploring similar usages of the Greek phrase in Scripture.

    First of all, the Greek language scholar will know: kai has both a copulative and a cumulative force. The Greek word kai can be translated “and” or “even.”

    Copulative refers to the joining together of coordinate words or word groups and expressing addition of their meanings. Cumulative refers to a snowballing effect. It means increasing by successive additions. It is formed by the addition of new material of the same kind. The best way to illustrate this is that the word can be equally translated as “and” or “even.”

    This Greek coupling kai epi is found together in a couple of other places in the New Testament. It is always helpful to compare similar or identical usages elsewhere in Scripture. This gives us a greater sense of meaning. Significantly, in these cases rather than suggesting a distinction in factions they actually show an enlargement of detail relating to the exact same subject matter. The coupling together of these words simply adds greater depth or more information to what has already been outlined. In each NT case, it is used in a cumulative sense. The second noun basically adds emphasis or further data to the first. It is therefore acceptable to interpret the same as “even on.”

    An example of this is found in Christ’s words in Matthew 21:5, which similarly reads, “Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon [Gr. epi] an ass, and [Gr. kai epi] a colt the foal of an ass.”

    The same idea is presented here (surrounded by the exact same key Greek words) as Galatians 6:16: epi ... kai epi (“on ... even on”). No one would be as naïve as to argue that the “ass” and the “colt” mentioned above are two different beasts. No, it is obvious that this is speaking of the one same animal. It literally reads, “on an ass, even on a colt the foal of an ass.” The “even on” simply adds further detail upon the description already given on the matter. In this case, not only is it an ass, but it is “a colt the foal of an ass.” This verse assists us in our understanding of Galatians 6:16, and illustrates the real import of this much-debated text.

    The same formation of Greek words is found in the same sequence, in order to present the same idea in Revelation 14:6, which reads, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto [Gr. epi] them that dwell on the earth, and [Gr. kai epi] to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    No sensible Bible student would suggest that that there are two different companies in view in this reading. Even though the word kai is translated “and” (like Galatians 6:16) in the KJV, it doesn’t negate the fact that those that are said to “dwell on the earth” are in fact those of “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    The Greek words kai epi are simply used here to broaden the information already given about the singular subject in view. They are not therefore two distinct peoples, they are the same. We see the exact same pattern as we have in Matthew 21:5: “unto ... even on” (epi ... kai epi). This passage simply states, “unto them that dwell on the earth, even on every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    Galatians 6:16 therefore agrees with these other two passages. The construction of the passage in the original Greek leads us to the obvious conclusion that we are looking at one unitary people. It is important we acknowledge the sequence of the words – “on ... even on” (or epi ... kai epi). Just like Matthew 21:5 and Revelation 14:6, the 2 mentions connect together and refer to the same subject matter. There can be no doubt: the phrase “the Israel of God” is carefully and deliberately related to all those who have experienced the new birth (who are the focus of this passage). This serves to add description to the regenerate.

    Christopher W. Cowan explains: “[Kermit] Titrud cites the linguistic principle of ‘maximum redundancy’ – that is, ‘the best meaning is the least meaning’. In other words, the correct meaning is usually the one that ‘contributes the least new information to the total context’ … To say that Paul intends the phrase to mean all believers, Jew and Gentile, is consistent with the letter and adds the least new information to the context” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16).

    Cowan adds: “As the saying goes, ‘context is everything’, and context is the decisive factor in understanding Paul's meaning here. Having contended for the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ throughout his letter, now at the conclusion Paul identifies the church, those who conform to the new creation in Christ, as the true Israel … To make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles here at the end of the letter would appear to counteract Paul’s entire preceding argument!” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16).

    Anthony A. Hoekema challenges the Dispensational position: “The problem with this interpretation is that believing Jews have already been included in the words ‘all who follow this rule’. The word kai, therefore, should here be rendered ‘even’ … When the passages is so understood, ‘the Israel of God’ is a further description of ‘all who follow this rule’ – that is, of all true believers, including both Jews and Gentiles who constitute the New Testament church. Here, in other words, Paul clearly identifies the church as the true Israel” (The Bible and the Future).
     
  19. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    remember not to avoid acts 21:18-25 before you form this doctrine
     
  20. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    The Jewish believers experienced a gradual revelation of the impotence of the temple sacrifices and priesthood and the all-sufficiency of the heavenly temple, high priest and once all-sufficient sacrifice of the cross. The book of Hebrews was specifically addressed to the Jewish Church to enlighten them on this matter and assist them in turning their back on the removed Old Testament practices. The destruction of the temple removed the last vestige of old covenant thinking that had attached itself to the Jewish Church. They were now finally separated from the old.

    Albert Barnes contends, speaking about the Christian leaders in Jerusalem instructing Paul to submit to the Jewish customs in order to gain credibility: “It is evident that James and the elders meant to say that these men were connected with them in the Christian church; and the fact shows that the Christians at Jerusalem did not disregard the institutions of Moses, and had not been so far enlightened in the doctrines of Christianity as to forsake yet the ceremonial rites of the Jews.”

    Asked 21:15–25: “And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.”

    The Jewish leader leaders forced Paul to go to the temple to prove his Jewish credentials. This was not voluntary. He did it under duress. It clearly was a sop to the Christ-rejecting Jews.
     
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