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20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, May 15, 2020.

  1. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Not so! This is a false dissection, and very troubling. You and Keras seem determined to invent theology no one else teaches and then force it on others. Well, there is a reason why others do not believe this. It is unbiblical. This is what the cults do!

    A lot of Christians seem to get confused by what happened with faithful Israel at the time of Christ’s earthly ministry. Did God’s Old Testament spiritual remnant finally disappear when Christ came on the scene? Or, did it continue, but lose its purpose and identity with the first advent? Was remnant Israel replaced by the New Testament Gentile Church? Was it merged into the New Testament Church or was the New Testament believers merged into faithful Israel?

    Revelation 12 sheds some lights on these queries. It helps us understand the transition of God’s people from the Old to the New. We, notably, see a figurative woman in this chapter who exists before Christ’s birth and who continues to thrive after His ascension. She is symbolically represented in Revelation 12:1 as “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” This passage depicts this woman bringing our Savior into this world. She is described in Revelation 12:5 as birthing “a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

    Who is the “man child” who “was to rule all nations with a rod of iron,” and “was caught up unto God, and to his throne”? This is Israel’s Messiah Jesus Christ. He is the promised seed. He is the offspring of the woman. He is the Holy One of Israel. He is the ultimate expression of true Israel. The woman therefore must be an Israeli woman. But not an apostate woman, who was previously rejected of God in the Old Testament, but a faithful woman. This woman has to refer to faithful Israel. Anyway, God’s true people are often described in Scripture as a woman. The 12 stars on her crown either represent divine authority or are symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel. It was from this Israeli woman that Christ was produced.

    The detail before us powerfully shows us the continuity and continuation of faithful Israel after the earthly life, death and resurrection of our Lord. Revelation 12:17 confirms that the woman represents those that accept Christ (the Messiah) as Savior and Lord. Despite Satan persecuting the woman (Revelation 12:15-16), those who survive of the woman’s seed are all those that expressly “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Christ (Israel’s Messiah) is the common bond that joins the household of faith in the Old with the New. Apostate Judaism can never fit this description, with its hostility to Jesus. They therefore have no part in this figurative woman. We are clearly looking at God’s true covenant people – the elect throughout time. This was God’s preserved remnant within national Israel in the Old Testament and are the redeemed Church from throughout the nations in this New Testament era.

    After Christ ascended up into heaven, and after Satan was banished from heaven, through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, this elect people, that are represented by this chosen woman, are described as those that overcame him [the devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death(Revelation 12:11). This woman clearly transcends both covenants. She was manifestly before the incarnation (as she brought forth Christ), but she is also alive and active after the cross (as she is seen advancing the Gospel of Christ). This shows us that the New Testament is the continuation of faithful Israel.

    True Israel did not therefore go away. It recognized Israel’s Messiah and embraced Him as Lord. That spiritual company coalesced around John the Baptist. The prophet was called to be the forerunner of Christ. He introduced Him to Israel. His direct preaching separated that which was counterfeit from that which was real. He caused a dividing of the people by only baptizing those Israelis who were willing to “bring forth … fruits meet for repentance.” (Matthew 3:8).

    After the cross, the congregation (or Church or ekklesia) of faithful old covenant Israel became the new covenant congregation (or Church or ekklesia). While overlapping two different eras, it was the exact same developing spiritual organism containing the exact same elect remnant, and more. The new spiritual community grew into a larger broader global entity.

    Let us then have no doubt, the remnant of Israel continued. What is more, God remained faithful to His covenantal obligations to Israel during the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant through His preservation of an elect remnant within that overall nation. This was true believing Israel. This was God’s chosen people. God was as bound to them as He was any previous generation of believing Israel. When Jesus sent the 12 disciples out in Matthew 10:5-6, He declared: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

    Here we are confronted in the New Testament with the Hebraic shepherd/sheep symbolism. The same familiar imagery carries over from the Old to the New. This reinforces the continuity of thought, faith, people and purpose. While the Messiah came to usher in a new economy, nothing changed in regard to the intimacy God shares with His true people. Our Lord’s earthly mission was initially and primarily, but not exclusively, concentrated upon the lost sheep of the house of Israel. His attention and principal mission was to firstly evangelize them before reaching out to the Gentiles. God in His infinite wisdom chose to work through one lone nation before the cross. That was His divine will. We see that in His earthly mission (which was still under the old covenant). Nevertheless, that focus was broadened out after His death to embrace all nations.

    As in the Old Testament, there was the sporadic Gentile conversion before the cross. But they were the exception rather than the rule. When a Gentile “woman of Canaan” approached Him in Matthew 15:22-28, He explained: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (v24). Not taking no for an answer, she continued to implore Him for mercy. Finally, in verse 28, Jesus said to the woman, “O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

    While Dispensationalists are fixated with all things biologically Jewish, they seem blind to the fact that the infant New Testament Church was indeed faithful Israel. Christ’s early followers consisted of the elect remnant of Israel. This was the enlightened congregation of Jewish believers from among wider national Israel. They were the Israeli community who believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

    This company contained people like Mary and Joseph, John the Baptist and his parents Zechariah and Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna who were waiting faithfully in the temple for Jesus, and early disciples like Peter, James and John. Many Jews recognized Jesus as the Messiah and embraced Him during His earthly ministry. In fact, they came to Him in great multitudes. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who were both believed to be members of the ruling body of the Jews – the Sanhedrin, trusted in Him. Faithful Israel also included that Hebrew of the Hebrews the apostle Paul. The fledgling early Church overwhelmingly consisted of true believing Israelites. This was the ongoing righteous remnant of Israel. Those Jews who rejected Jesus were apostate Israel. They preferred to remain in their sins and go to a lost eternity.

    The 12 apostles were Jewish. The New Testament writers were Jewish. The 70 disciples that were sent out to evangelize Israel were likewise. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the new covenant congregation. That small faithful band of Israelis that existed after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ became the New Testament Church, and became later known as Christians (Acts 11:26). It was that faithful number who Jesus used to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19).

    The 120, who met on the Jewish festival of Pentecost, were of solid Israeli stock. When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost after the Holy Spirit had fell, his audience was devout Jews “out of every nation under heaven” who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost. That is why he addressed them as “Ye men of Israel” (Acts 2:5). Personally, three thousand of them experience salvation. Not long after that, God saved five thousand Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 4:4). Following that, there was “multitudes both of men and women” who “were the more added to the Lord” in Acts 5:14. There was a mighty ingathering of Jews in the early New Testament Church.

    There is no doubt that the Jews were the main focus of Christ’s earthly ministry. That situation continued on for a while throughout the book of Acts. But redemption didn’t stop there. His sheep were not limited to the house of Israel. His heart for Israel did not in any way diminish His intention to reach the Gentile nations with salvation. Jesus said prior to the cross, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

    The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  2. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

    It would seem right to regard God's future inheritance for Israel as relating to the heavenly abode and the prepared city the New Jerusalem. The Patriarch’s earthly abode in Canaan is depicted here as a temporary sojourn and “a strange country.” This was not Abraham’s eternal abode or was it his true home. Like us, he looked for the New Jerusalem that would last forever. Man’s ultimate hope (whether Old Testament or New Testament) is when Jerusalem from above comes down to the earth to dwell forever.

    Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

    Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city.

    The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

    Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

    Whilst earthly Jerusalem may be the hope today of the Christ-rejecting Jew, the heavenly New Jerusalem was the desire of the believing Old Testament saints.

    That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. Notwithstanding, it is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the centre of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. The passage says, “for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” That city is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come!!!

    During our Lord’s earthly ministry He made a very significant statement about the heavenly abode, which many modern-day eschatology students tend to overlook. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

    Something we should establish here due to the array of false teaching floating around on the subject: whilst this eternal abode Christ is currently preparing for His people is now in heaven there is no proof in this text that this city will remain in heaven after His Coming. Jesus simply promises: I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

    Where Christ is at His appearing is where the heavenly city with its many mansions will be. This closely connects Christ to the holy city. One could take from this statement that the New Jerusalem will appear with Christ. It would be wise to see whether there is other Scripture to support or negate such a hypothesis.

    Christ here directly addresses the undoubted concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure. In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.

    The next thing of note we see is that Christ was, shortly after this incident, going to His “Father’s house” – heaven – to “prepare a place” for His people. That “place,” which was undoubtedly heavenly, and its final manifestation, is clearly identified here with the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word rendered “prepare” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word hetoimasoo which simply means ‘to make ready’. Therefore, Christ is presently preparing, or making ready, a heavenly abode for the redeemed of God, which they will inhabit at His glorious final all-consummating Second Coming.

    The bride is represented as the holy city. Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

    That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

    This Second Coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

    This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the Second Coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

    Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the Second Coming – namely:

    The “new Jerusalem” appears.
    The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
    The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
    The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

    Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

    The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the Second Coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

    Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.

    Premillennialism divorces Christ from the eternal city He is preparing now. It also evacuates the New Jerusalem at the Second Coming and forbids the saints entry to it for 1,000 years. Why would Christ emphasise the eternal glory and comfort of this city He is preparing for His people if they were not going to immediately enjoy it when they die or when He appears? The whole promise of John 14:1-3 is negated by this theological school of thought. Premillennialism must also ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the Coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

    No wonder 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, “as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

    I guess if I was to sum up the great difficulty I have with Premillennialism on this matter, it is its constant focus upon the natural city Jerusalem, and their notion that God's favour is upon this Christ-rejecting people, rather than focusing like Abraham upon that city that embraces the true chosen of God – the New Jerusalem. The New Testament constantly directs our eyes toward the heavenly Jerusalem, whereas Premils are constantly speaking of, and speculating about, the old Jerusalem, which we know is likened today unto Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11) and is now "in bondage with her children" (Galatians 4:22-26).

    This temple within the city – the New Jerusalem – is Christ. Revelation 21:22 says, “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” The New Jerusalem represents the wider kingdom wherein the temple centrally resides.
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    But the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. They would need to levitate to accomplish that.

    Since there is much symbolism, we have no idea of the actual construction or characteristics of what John saw.

    Nor can we, because it will be in an infinite dimension with which we in our present finite dimension cannot identify.
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  4. TMarcum

    TMarcum New Member

    United States
    I would like to interject regarding this topic. Let's look a little closer at this. A little about me; my beliefs are closer to Amil than any other end time beliefs, but I do propose that the 42 month reign of the beast (Rev 13:5) does occur after Satan is loosed from the pit and after the thousand years, but I do propose the saints were all martyred spanning from the time Jesus ascended into heaven until the end of the 1000 year period. I cannot find a single reference of any saints being killed between (Rev 13:7) and (Rev 20:4). I believe both occurrences are the same event.

    I will make a few points. If you compare the language of (Rev 20:4) closely with that of (Rev 13:7), notice the saints were overcome by the 2nd beast (false profit) and they did not worship it (Rev 13:7). Only those that did worship the 2nd beast (false profit), were "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 13:8)".

    This is the same language as written in (Rev 20:4), "which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands". The reason they did not worship it, is because he killed and beheaded the last of the martyrs as soon as he ascended from the pit. This sets the clock for the 42 months (Satan's little season). We do know that their were some saints that did escaped the reach of the beast (Rev 14:12-13), but not killed by him nor the great whore.

    Rev 13
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Rev 20:4
    and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Another passage to look at (Rev 17:7-11). It says here that the beast, which hath the seven heads and ten horns "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition". We can read (2 Thess 2:3-9) where Paul discusses the man of sin, son of perdition. He is destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord. But the 2nd beast (false profit) was of the 1st beast with 7 heads. It went into perdition once it ascended out of the pit (Rev 13:8 & 11). The head with the deadly wound that was headed, is the 2nd beast (the false profit). The head was wounded when Christ was crucified. The head was healed when Satan was loosed from the pit. Satan (the dragon) gave his power to the seat of the beast with 7 heads (Rev 13:4). The beast with 7 heads gave his power to the 2nd beast (false profit) with 2 horns (Rev 13:11). They both received all power from the dragon (Satan).

    Rev 17
    7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    Something to look closely at; Notice (Rev 16:13-14) when the (3) unclean spirits came out of the mouth of the dragon, beast, and false profit. The mouth of the false profit is 1st introduced (Rev 13:5). But look at what the mouth belonged to, "the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed".

    This is what killed the beheaded saints of Rev 20:4 and Rev 13:7

    Rev 13
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    Rev 16
    13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    If your curious about the mouth of the dragon, review (Rev 12:15 & 16).
  5. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    You have NOT addressed the scriptures.
  6. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Why would they? God has various means of enabling people to go to & fro. Even today we have planes and rockets etc that go into space. Also remember the `ladder` that connected earth and heaven with the angels moving up and down. Also think of Elijah who was caught up in a chariot.

    There are things we do not understand, `no eye has seen...` The marvels we see now are not to be compared with what God has in store in the next ages.

    I also agree that the New Jerusalem is depicted by symbols.
  7. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    You do present your case well.

    However.....you seem to not have an answer as to why God would make a nation that He knew would not obey Him. Why not just deal with people individually and fix everything up much earlier? Why wait all these centuries when God knew Israel as a nation was no good?

    Also the 12 disciple are NOT in the Body of Christ. They never knew about it. Peter asked the Lord when was He going to restore the kingdom/rule to Israel. He had to be shown by the Holy Spirit to go to the Gentiles when he should have done that before. Later he tried to get the gentiles to act like Jews.

    There are `holes` in your presentation.
  8. Yesha

    Yesha Westminster Standards

    United States
    I am not sure what to make of your statement that “heaven can be anywhere and everywhere”. I do not wish to slander you, but that sounds like Rob Bell language. How do you draw this conclusion from Scripture?

    I digress. I contend that because the souls that John sees are in heaven, it follows that their reign with Christ occurs in heaven. John does not indicate a change in scenery between his mentioning the souls and their coming to life. All of this gives credence to the position that John is indicating the present millennial reign of Christ and his saints in heaven.

    I understand Revelation 20:4-5 to be referring to martyrs and non-martyrs. Here is what I wrote in the post you quoted:

    The text says that John saw the souls of “those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God” and of “those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Are these souls not inclusive of all saints since John refers to them separately in the same setting?

    In other words, because John inserts an “and” between his references to the beheaded and the faithful, he gives us reason to conclude that he has all saints in view.

    But to reach that conclusion, you must first interpret the thousand years of Revelation 20 as temporally exact and then read it back into 1 Corinthians 15. How would the Corinthians have interpreted Paul’s argument when they did not have the Revelation?

    My point is that there is no reference to a thousand-year millennium in the fifteenth chapter. In verse 23, Paul clearly states that “those who belong to Christ” are raised “at his coming”. The beneficiaries of this resurrection must be all the saints and the timing must be coincident with the second advent. I see no contextual evidence that suggests otherwise. When Paul goes on to describe the nature of the bodily resurrection in verses 42-44, what evidence suggests that this is referring to a different resurrection than the aforementioned? I submit that only with the presupposition of a literal, earthly millennium can anyone read a parenthetical gap of 1,000 years between verses 23 and 24 and thereby conclude that Paul jumps ahead to a different resurrection not ever implied in the text.

    Christ’s words in Matthew 12 are not merely referring to simple exorcisms, but to the fact that his casting out demons through the power of the Holy Spirit was evidence that he had already bound the strongman and initiated the plundering of the strongman’s house. Satan is the clear reference here (Matt. 12:26) and by his binding he is rendered powerless to prevent the coming of the kingdom of God.
  9. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    I can appreciate your line of thought, however it presumes we all go to the city which you say is on earth. You seem not to know who the `nations of the saved` are on the earth. (Rev. 21: 24) Also you seem to be saying, (correct me if I am not hearing you) that God the Father and Jesus will also be on the earth. Is that so?
  10. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    I have told you who the nations are but you dismissed it. All the elect from all nations (Jew and Gentile). Yes, heaven is coming to earth.
  11. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Good questions, and thanks for your gracious approach to discussion. It is challenging and refreshing to see.

    I really don't see any holes. There are only holes if you foist Dispy teaching/rules on the Bible, which I abandoned 27 years ago. I am free of that.

    I could ask: why did God create man when He knew man would fall short. Because man is the problem, and God is the answer. We see that from the Garden until the second coming. God knew man could not keep the law and He knew Israel's prophets, priests and kings would fail. That is why Christ came to earth and took on flesh. That is why He superseded every old covenant office with a perfect manifestation of the same. He is true Israel.

    Israel never stopped. The theocracy stopped. Israel was expanded to embrace the Gentiles. Those in Him are true Israel. The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-45; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

    Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:

    · He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
    · He determines who true Israel is.
    · He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.

    But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

    Saying all this, the principal element that joins the old and the new, Jew and Gentile, together is shown to be Jesus Christ. He overlaps both covenants, He brings a continuity in salvation and is at the core of meeting man’s greatest need in any day. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows how one’s response to Christ will ultimately determine one’s eternal destiny. Accept Him, and experience eternal life. Reject Him, and experience eternal damnation. Participation in God’s elect remnant therefore is determined by our relationship with Jesus – man’s redeemer and Israel’s only Messiah. Paul presents Christ as the epicenter of man’s favor with God. He supports his teaching with the analogy of a figurative stone which the elect embrace but the religious balk at. He refers back to the Old Testament to Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14 to support his thesis.

    Romans 9:30-33 records: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

    Paul shows how national religious Israel missed the boat because they rejected Christ (“they stumbled at that stumblingstone”). Also, they were bound to a religious aberration that revolved around keeping the law. The fact is: none of them could keep it. They were totally deceived if they thought they could. They were not a believing people which is why they were cut out of the good Israeli olive tree. On the other hand, Paul shows natural Gentiles (heathens) embracing that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Albert Barnes explains: “This rock, designed as a corner stone to the church, became, by the wickedness of the Jews, the block over which they fall into ruin.”

    Through Calvary, the Gentiles have been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoy a new citizenship, with new sanctified benefits. Gentile believers united with Jewish believers on an equal basis, inhabiting God’s Zion. Christ taught this same truth (that Paul shares in Romans 9:30-33) in Matthew 21:42-44 – relating various messianic prophecies to Himself (only adding Isaiah 28:16 to the mix). By doing this, Christ reveals the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament prophecies in our day. In Matthew 21:44, Jesus laid it out as straight and simple as it could honestly be said: “whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Nothing has changed today!

    Dispensationalists argue that Romans 9–11 is all about ethnic Israel. But it clearly isn’t! They fail to see that it is primarily focused on Christ and His spiritual elect (irrespective of race). They miss how the apostle defines who true Israel is and demonstrates how believing Gentiles would be integrated into faithful Israel on the grounds of saving faith. This is seen in the detailed symbolism in these chapters of the good olive tree. The whole analogy is central to his reasoning. He focuses on national Israel because there was so much confusion in the fledgling Church as to ethnic Israel’s place (or not) in the plan of God, with the introduction of the new covenant. Paul addresses this in great detail to give a proper perspective. But natural Israel is an extra in the main play, both in this narrative and in repeated New Testament instruction.

    In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

    This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

    Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.
    So, let us summarize:

    · To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
    · They also have to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
    · As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
    · Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.

    In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he has just said previous in Romans 9–11, in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed. That is why he uses the future tense.

    Dispensationalists fail to notice (or choose to ignore) Romans 9:6-13. There, Paul identifies who “all Israel” is: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

    These words blow apart Dispensationalism. Paul very adeptly distinguishes here between the believing elect remnant within Israel and the wider national Israel itself. He eliminates any apparent confusion between Romans 9:27 and Romans 11:26 by demonstrating that true Israel is not merely that which is physical and ethnic, but rather that which is faithful and believing. Genetic pedigree means nothing to the Apostle. Rather than conflicting, Romans 9:27 and Romans 11:26 are really speaking about the same Israel – faithful believing Israel. It is this Israel alone that is chosen and who carries divine favor on this earth. They are the flock of God. He confirms that it is this faithful assembly within wider Israel that are the elect and who walk in covenant blessing.
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  12. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Thank you for such a detailed response. I will go and prepare what I see we agree on and then I have a few more questions for you.
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    This is correct and we agree here.
    So where then does the current Jewish State of Israel fit?

    It is the belief of many that they will be saved after passing thru the Great Trib.
    But there are over 20 prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel and just a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27
    I find the prophecy in Jeremiah 12:14-16 very enlightening. It says the evil neighbors will be uprooted from the holy Land and Judah too will be gone on the Day He does this.
    The Jews will be allowed to come back; ONLY IF they learn the ways of My people.
    My People; are the faithful Christian believers, the only people God wants to live there. Isaiah 35:8-10, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

  15. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Give me one land promise to Israel under the new covenant? There is none in Romans 9-11. Please don't furnish me with old covenant promises. These are long fulfilled.
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Thank you!
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    The new Covenant isn't to ethnic Israel, but to the Christian Israelites of God.

    Well then, you haven't read Romans 9:24-26 very carefully.
    That prophecy says the Christians will be in the very place that the ancient Israelites were, as God calls them, us; the children of the Living God. Isaiah 62:1-5 confirms this.
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    You said:

    Please answer the question! Give me one land promise to Israel under the new covenant?
  19. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    Hi Sovereign Grace,

    Good name. Now let`s see what we can agree on and then go from there.

    I do agree with you that `Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race.` (as you said). And `Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.`

    So with that as our basis we can look at some specific points I`d like to raise for discussion.

    1. Christ the primary focus.

      You said - `Dispensationalists argue that Romans 9 – 11 is all about ethnic Israel. But it clearly isn`t! They fail to see that it is primarily focused on Christ and His spiritual elect (irrespective of race).`

      I agree.

      So let`s look at your next statement. `They miss how the apostle defines who true Israel is and demonstrates how believing Gentiles would be integrated into faithful Israel on the grounds of saving faith. This is seen in the detailed symbolism in these chapters of the good olive tree.`

      This we need to check to see if what you say is true.

      `For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree were grafted in among them, and with them become partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

      So as you said `symbolism.` Let`s have a look at who is what.

      Fruit-fruits - `Christ the first- fruits,` (1 Cor. 15: 23)

      Root – Jesus said `I am the Root and Offspring of David.` (Rev. 22: 16)

      Wild Olive Tree (branches) - `you being a wild olive tree,,,` (Gentiles) (v. 17)

      Natural Olive Tree (some of the branches) - `some of the branches were broken off..` (v. 17) Unbelieving Israel.

      So it is that I see that the Lord is the Root of the Olive Tree, (Israel) and some branches (people) were broken off and then some branches, (Gentile people) from the wild olive tree, were grafted into the Lord.

      The Lord as the Root is holy.

      The Lord is whom the branches (believing Israel & Gentiles) partake of and are nourished by, (fatness).

      Note: The OT saints although righteous are not of themselves holy, and have no ability or inner resource to nurture and nourish the believers, (Jews & Gentiles).

      Thus I don`t believe your statement that we are grafted into faithful Israel.

      The focus, as you partly said, is CHRIST.
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    This is what is Promised to the Jewish State of Israel:
    Judah, judged and punished, in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal devastation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14
    Matthew 8:1-12 Many will come from the East and the West to partake with the Patriarchs in God's Kingdom. But those who were born into the Kingdom, will be thrown out into the dark.....

    Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live. Luke 19:27

    Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah:
    v11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.

    The Promise of all the holy Land was given to Abraham and to his seed. Genesis 15:18
    That Seed was Jesus and we Christians are the children of Abraham by faith. Galatians 3:26-29