• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, May 15, 2020.

  1. Moriah's Song

    Moriah's Song Member

    239
    +137
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    So you mean that every verse in the Bible has to be interpreted your way (literally) and every one else is wrong - including Jesus? If so, there is no way you will come to a proper understanding of scripture so you should probably cut your eyes, your hands, and your feet off because every human being, Christian or not, tells at least one lie every day - even if it is a tiny little white lie (if there is such a thing.)

    If Jesus required us to take all scripture literally or they could not enter the Kingdom of God, then humanity has no chance of being saved according to your interpretations. We would all have hacked up completely useless bodies from trying to get there !
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +333
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Is time literal or just figurative? Satan's 42 months is the third woe. Satan comes to earth and is given 42 months. Do you think 42 months is figurative of 42 winks?


    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Heaven was rejoicing along with the sound of the 7th angel. Victory over Satan, but woe to those on earth. Why? Because Satan is about to get 42 months during the sound of the 7th Trumpet, the 3rd woe.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  3. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +2,276
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The third woe is the 7th Trumpet and the destruction that accompanies it at the climactic second coming.

    Revelation 11:12 says, “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past (the great battle); and, behold, the third woe (the last trump – the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ) cometh quickly.”

    Verses 15 records the ushering in of eternity, we learn, And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Christ at this juncture has put down all rebellion and has finally ushered in His eternal reign.”
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +333
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    So being in sin is not considered dead?

    Romans 6:11
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Why is this body corruptible, and the physical body in Paradise incorruptible? One is dead, the other is alive. Sin makes this body dead. Adam's disobedience made his physical body go from life, incorruptible to death, corruptible.
     
  5. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +703
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    I already said, it was meant for Israel under the promise that healing is guaranteed for all in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    We are not Israel, and we don't have guarantees of healings.
     
  6. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

    +2,466
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    Taking Scripture as literally as possible does not add any impediment whatsoever to saving faith in the Lord, and being a literalist is not a barrier from admission as a Christian either. It merely serves to point us to the best interpretation of Scripture that we have. For now we know in part, but the time is coming when we shall see face to face and no interpretation or gifts of the Spirit will be necessary, for then we will be taught by the Holy Lord God Almighty Himself, our Lord Jesus Christ!!!
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +333
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    They could be the spirits of living reprobate people. Do they ever leave enough alone and are banished like the soul? I gave you the chapter that shows spirits gathered around the throne of God. Our spirits are not dead, we are dead in sin and have to be separated from are spirit. That is why we are given the Holy Spirit from God. A reprobate soul cannot be redeemed. So the spirit is spiritually dead and cannot be resurrected, ie the second resurrection. That is a demon. A dead spirit that cannot be resurrected. They were not created by God dead. Angels do not have spirits. The fallen angels are bound in the pit. They are not demons roaming the earth. What Scripture do you have that the fallen angels are demons? Did you make that up, or did some teacher make that up and is teaching many what they made up?
     
  8. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

    +2,466
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    Demons are now currently roaming the earth. Their time is coming, soon. I assume when Satan is bound for 1000 years, demons will be with Satan. But for now, I know three Baptist men who have all run into real demons, and they would not have told me about it if it were not the truth. I have personally never run into one, but I won't mess with witchcraft, or Satanic bibles, or Ouji boards, and I know of Wiccan priestesses or whatever these witches call themselves and they are real live human beings. And demon worshippers still exist too.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +2,276
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Can you please quote who you are responding to? That is a common courtesy on forums like this and helpful to fellow posters.
     
  10. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +333
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Your timing is off. You missed the change in narrative.

    Revelation 9:12

    12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

    13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,


    The 5th angel is the first woe.

    The 6th angel is the second woe.

    Now we have an interruption. There are 7 Thunders. Not part of the 3 woes at all. Chapter 10 is the 7 Thunders. Then John explains what is going to happen in the 3rd woe, the 7th Trumpet. The first thing explained is all OT prophets are fulfilled in the sounding of the 7th Trumpet that has a sound that will last days, not a single short blast. Gabriel in Daniel 9:27 claims 1 week of days. In the midst of this week is the 3rd woe. In the midst of the 7th Trumpet sounding is the third woe. But when the Trumpet stops, all will be fulfilled. The 70th week will be fulfilled. Gabriel is more than likely the archangel blowing the 7th Trumpet.

    The next thing mentioned about the 7th Trumpet is the temple is measured. There is a temple during the 7th Trumpet. It is measured, and Gentiles trod in this temple (the courtyard) 42 months, during the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Also at this same time for 1260 days the 2 witnesses will be a thorn in the side of these Gentiles and Satan during the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Now we see an earthquake at the end of these 1260 days and the end of the 42 months. The same earthquake at the 7th vial.

    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    The 2 witnesses ascended right before this earthquake, all during the sound of the 7th Trumpet. This is the third woe. All of the above.

    The third woe has to end so the 7th Trumpet can end the 70 weeks to usher in the promises of Daniel 9:24. Gabriel was the messenger to tell Daniel what would happen. Fitting that when it does happen, Gabriel will be sounding the 7th Trumpet.

    Now chapter 11 and the 7th Trumpet. It is not after the 2 witnesses, because chapter 10 was that angel (Gabriel) now telling John about the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. His message will be complete as given to Daniel. Chapter 12 places the dragon into the 42 months, with a brief historical background. With the explanation out of the way Revelation 11:14 picks up the 3rd woe narrative, left off before the 7 Thunders interrupted the woes.

    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    So it reads:

    12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

    13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    Verse 14 in chapter 11 picks up the narrative that was interrupted. The 2 witnesses have the same time period as Satan and the 42 months. There is not a 4th woe and an 8th Trumpet for Armageddon. Satan's time, the 7 vials, and Armageddon after the major earthquake are the 3rd woe. They are the desolation that splits the week of days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

    The Lord coming at Armageddon ends the sound of the 7th Trumpet. That is not the Second Coming. The Second Coming is being finalized by the 7th Trumpet. It already happened, and Christ already set up the temple that is measured in chapter 11. Already set up the throne Satan, and the FP take control over when they defeat the saints in chapter 13. The temple has to be set up to be trod under foot by Satan and the Gentiles 42 months.

    The 2 witnesses are not the second woe. They are part of the 3rd woe. The 6th Trumpet is the second woe. The Second Coming happened in the 6th Seal, because Christ brought the trump, and the archangel (Gabriel) at the 6th Seal. The 6 Angels sound in judgment along with the 7 Thunders during the final harvest, where all man's works are burned up, and souls are sent to eternal life or eternal damnation. Christ is on earth for the Great Tribulation, after the tribulation of those days in the first 4 Seals. Christ sets up a throne. Ezekiel claims a temple, and John claims that temple is measured. The confirmation of the Covenant by Messiah Prince leads to either Revelation 14 and the winepress during the week of the 7th Trumpet. Or worse case scenario there is a woe instead of the final winepress. If chapter 13 happens, we get 15, 16, and 19. 17 and 18 are just the end of life as we know it. The end of all OT prophecies. Armageddon is the climactic end of the 70th week at 6pm sharp. It is all over, and the Millennium starts. Daylight, Monday morning a resurrection, Revelation 20:4. A new heaven and earth, because: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. All accomplished at the Cross, but placed on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles was brought into this Atonement.
     
  11. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +2,276
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Not so. You are manipulating the text to support your beliefs. The 3rd woe is the end. There are no survivors. We then have the general resurrection and general judgment.
     
  12. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

    +2,466
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    I've explained it before in threads you were in, that when I post its for the group, and not in response to any poster. When I respond to someone specifically, as I have here for you, I am fully aware of how to do so. No need to single someone out when the point is not directly at anyone personally. Otherwise I'd PM them directly instead of commenting in a thread. But i do so here so you are aware I know how to hit the reply button when its appropriate for the point being made.
     
  13. Moriah's Song

    Moriah's Song Member

    239
    +137
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    a) What verse do you get that from please?
    b) When you use the word "Israel" do you mean the state of Israel in the Middle East?
    c) Or, do you mean "Israel" as the name used for the united body of Christ according to 1Co 12:13...

    "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit."
    d) Do you believe that the word "Jew" used in this verse is referring to "Israel/Israelites"?

    e)Do you not see where 1 Cor 12:13 does, without a doubt refer to the Jews and Gentiles being together in ONE not TWO separate bodies?

    f) If you do not have guarantees of healings since you say that it is Israel/the Jews that have healings, are you not literally saying that you would recommend to sinning persons that they dismember all the parts of their bodies that may be causing them to sin when it has been shown to you that Jesus did not mean to actually do it??
     
  14. Moriah's Song

    Moriah's Song Member

    239
    +137
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Israel is the church

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16)

    “...to the Jews first and also to the Greek.”!
    ....By using the word 'first' the verse naturally connects the Greeks/Gentiles as being the '"second" in line after the Jews rejected Christ as their Savior to spread the gospel. The Jews had been chosen centuries earlier to have that privilege of being the first to the world at large and Samaria (Jew and Gentile mixed race) was the first territory outside Jerusalem that Philip went to and of which thousands received Christ.

    So, the order in which the gospel was sent out into the world was this...
    ~ First, the Jews
    ~ Second, the mixed race of the Samaritans
    ~ Third, the Gentiles along with the Jews during the first century​

    "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;" (Ephesians 2:11)​

    "In times past...By using the words "in times past" it can only mean that we became the new Israel of which both Jews and Gentile believers (the elect) are "circumcised in the heart and not by the flesh.

    We physical Gentiles, and Jews by race, who believe in Christ are now the new spiritual Israel as revealed in the book of Acts on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the descendants of Abraham and the Gentile proselytes who had converted to the Jewish faith. But the "new spiritual Israel" is a "mixed race" with the same beliefs about Christ.

    What I mean by that is this, and I use it as an example: In the USA we have whites and blacks having children together. In the past, their children were called "mulattos" or a mutation of both groups. That is what Israel means when Jesus brought the Jews and Gentiles together as in the above verse of Romans 1:16 says. Israel is the name both groups united in Christ are called.

    Israel and the Church are one and it is Amils point of view that the concept of the Church being separate from Israel is one of the most destructive dispensational/pretrib's twisting of scripture ever to appear in Christian doctrine.

    Satan has, by using dispensationalism, for the most part succeeding in driving a wedge between Israel and the Church when it was Christ who united us in Himself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  15. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,289
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I was talking about John 11:26 in particular where Jesus said "whoever lives by believing in me will never die.". I've already explained how I understand John 11:25-26, so I see no need to do it again.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,699
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Scripture's first prophecy:

    Genesis 3:15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Literal or spiritual?
     
  17. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,289
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    You have no discernment. Being dead unto sins doesn't mean we're literally dead in any way. Only unbelievers are dead in their sins, not believers (Eph 2:1-6). To be dead unto sin (not to be confused with being dead in sins) simply means that our sins are not counted against us and we are instead saved and "alive unto God through Jesus Christ".
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  18. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,289
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Please show me the scripture to support what you're saying. Do you think Paul would agree with what you're saying here? I don't think so.

    1 Corinthians 12:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    Jeffwhosoever said "Taking Scripture as literally as possible...serves to point us to the best interpretation of Scripture that we have". In contrast to that, the apostle Paul said "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words...they are discerned only through the Spirit". It's not hard to decide which one of you I should agree with.

    Why wait? We can be taught by Him now.

    1 Corinthians 2:15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”. But we have the mind of Christ.
     
  19. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +703
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    When people assume the Body of Christ is Israel, that interpretation of Paul naturally follows.
     
  20. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

    +703
    Singapore
    Christian
    Married
    a) From Matthew 15:24.

    As for c-e, Paul is talking about the Body of Christ, not Israel. In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentiles so you are correct there.

    As for your last point, your conclusion do not follow. We gentiles in the Body of Christ take our doctrine from what Christ revealed to Paul. Jesus was speaking to Israel only, and we are NOT Israel.

    Its because you straight away assume Israel and the Body of Christ is equivalent, that is why point f is a problem for you.
     
Loading...