20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[jgr]

So you do not have a soul, because it cannot be seen unless in the Spirit? The soul is a physical reality because it makes physical post on a physical internet forum. I do not need to be in the spirit to see your soul putting a lot of effort into your post. I see your soul quite clearly.

Did John's physical eyes see, and his physical hands write on a physical substance what he saw? Being caught up in the Spirit is not the same physical experience as being filled with the Spirit. At the Second Coming it would seem we would want to be caught up physically, and not just filled with the Holy Spirit.

If you accept he was caught up, then obviously he was brought to this time frame as well, since it was a physical experience. Caught up being as real for John then as it will be for those dead souls, because they are in dead corruptible bodies, at the Second Coming. It will be physical not just a "spiritual encounter".

Scripture?

 

[Timtofly]

Scripture?

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Is Paul still groaning after 1900+ years?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you do not accept we have a soul, body and spirit? It is just a soul and body? The spirit and body are the same part of a two part being?

We are tri-part.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You don't provide any scriptural support for this assertion, because there isn't any.
The ONLY time that anyone other that Jesus is given immortality, is at the final Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

I have given you multiple Scripture but have avoided every one.

 

[keras]

I have given you multiple Scripture but have avoided every one.

They were all Promises of the future time, when immortality will be given t those whose names are found in the Book of life.

It is just a fanciful dream to think any human will become immortal before Eternity comes. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Timtofly]

We are tri-part.

Yes and the first physical resurrection happened at the Cross. The church in Paradise is just waiting for the robe of white, our spirit given back to us, not a physical body. Before the Cross, a soul was waiting for that first resurrection. The one Jesus proved with calling Lazarus out of his grave. John 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus did not give incorruptible bodies to his disciples and apostles at the Cross. Jesus led those in Abraham's bosom out of sheol and gave them physical bodies just like His Resurrected physical body, incorruptible, so they could enter Paradise. He did not change their soul nor rearrange the soul's disposition. They would not have been in Abraham's bosom, but actually in torment with the rest of the dead if that were the case. What changed is a physical incorruptible body and the ability to enjoy Paradise physically. They could have been souls in Paradise without a body just as well as Abraham's bosom. It was the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ that was afforded all those in Christ at the time of the Cross. The soul and body restored for ever more. Now they wait for the third part, the spiritual, the spirit. The symbolism of the robe of white. It is not a literal physical white garment. It is the spirit of light wrapped around the incorruptible physical body. The Second Coming is the complete restoration. Nothing has prevented Jesus Christ nor those in Christ in Paradise from a physical body that is incorruptible. Paul states:

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

The "rise not" is an ongoing phenomenon, not a distant future event. We as living have a dead corruptible body that needs resurrection. That is the point. Not that the soul needs a future resurrection. The soul does not die, the physical corruptible body has to die.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They were all Promises of the future time, when immortality will be given t those whose names are found in the Book of life.

It is just a fanciful dream to think any human will become immortal before Eternity comes. Revelation 21:1-7

This occurs at the second coming - the last day and time of the final resurrection/judgment. This is when time is no more and eternity arrives. Your timing is all off.

 

[keras]

This occurs at the second coming - the last day and time of the final resurrection/judgment. This is when time is no more and eternity arrives. Your timing is all off.

Revelation 20:1-10 plainly says there will be a thousand years of Christs reign on earth.
Revelation 20:11-15 plainly says that after that 1000 years, everyone who has ever lived will stand in Judgment before God. Those worthy who have their names Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and the rest will be annihilated.

Why do you have beliefs that contradict scripture?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20:1-10 plainly says there will be a thousand years of Christs reign on earth.
Revelation 20:11-15 plainly says that after that 1000 years, everyone who has ever lived will stand in Judgment before God. Those worthy who have their names Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and the rest will be annihilated.

Why do you have beliefs that contradict scripture?

Where does it say in Rev 20 He is on earth? Please quote.

 

[keras]

Where does it say in Rev 20 He is on earth? Please quote.

Rev 20:1-10 prophesies about the nations and in verse 8, The armies of Satan are mustered from the four quarters of the earth....to attack the beloved city and fire came from heaven and consumed them.
How could all that be anywhere else than on earth?
Rev 5:9-10 is further proof.

Any ideas of humans going to live in heaven is beyond sci-fi, past Captain Kirk; 'beam me up Scotty'.... and is a total impossibility.

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 20:1-10 prophesies about the nations and in verse 8, The armies of Satan are mustered from the four quarters of the earth....to attack the beloved city and fire came from heaven and consumed them.
How could all that be anywhere else than on earth?

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said the fire comes at Christ's return.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
The judgment is at the end of Revelation 20.

.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rev 20:1-10 prophesies about the nations and in verse 8, The armies of Satan are mustered from the four quarters of the earth....to attack the beloved city and fire came from heaven and consumed them.
How could all that be anywhere else than on earth?

You were asked where does it say in Rev 20 that Christ is on earth. It does not say anything about Christ being on earth anywhere in Rev 20.

Any ideas of humans going to live in heaven is beyond sci-fi, past Captain Kirk; 'beam me up Scotty'.... and is a total impossibility.

The souls of the dead in Christ are there in heaven now. Where else could the location of the souls John saw in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20 be? The souls referenced in Rev 20 ask the Lord "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?". Where is the Lord? In heaven. So, that's where the souls John saw are.

 

[keras]

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said the fire comes at Christ's return.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
The judgment is at the end of Revelation 20..

We have discussed when 2 Thess 1:7-10 before. I remain convinced that prophecy refers to the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, years before the Return.
It simply does not fit with any of the prophesies about the Return.

Jesus DOES reveal Himself to His own people, after the Sixth Seal, as described; Revelation 14:1

2 Timothy 4:1 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearance and reign, .....
This verse does NOT say the general Judgment of individuals is at His appearance.
He only Judges the nations at the Return. Matthew 25:31-33

 

[keras]

You were asked where does it say in Rev 20 that Christ is on earth. It does not say anything about Christ being on earth anywhere in Rev 20.

Are you denying that Jesus will Return to the earth?
Jesus said He would come again and angels said He would Return in the same way as He left. Acts 1:11, Revelation 19:11
Revelation 20 is all about earthly events.

The souls of the dead in Christ are there in heaven now.

Only the souls of the martyrs are in heaven; kept under the Altar.
They aren't alive, but are allowed to call out at times. Rev 19:1-3

ALL the rest of the dead 'sleep in the dust', until they are brought before God, by the Last Trumpet call, for the final Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rev 20:1-10 prophesies about the nations and in verse 8, The armies of Satan are mustered from the four quarters of the earth....to attack the beloved city and fire came from heaven and consumed them.
How could all that be anywhere else than on earth?
Rev 5:9-10 is further proof.

Any ideas of humans going to live in heaven is beyond sci-fi, past Captain Kirk; 'beam me up Scotty'.... and is a total impossibility.

This is talking about the redeemed on earth. It also shows Satan and his armies on earth. But Jesus is not mentioned. I suspect by you avoidance that you realize that. This is talking about the great end-time battle at the end before the second coming.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 describe the same concluding event. They correlate in all the climatic detail. Please compare.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. gē] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. gē] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away [Gr. aperchomai]. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranos) were of old (or “a long time”), and the earth (gē) standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (gē), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (ouranos) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (gē) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranos) and a new earth (gē), wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

It is not just that Peter is delineating the removal of the old heavens and earth at Christ’s return; he significantly describes the replacement of the old corrupt arrangement with a new heavens and earth at this climactic event. No one would surely feel the need to localize this depiction unless they were trying to sustain a doctrine that contradicts this passage.

Surely no one would try to limit the subject and scope of the new heavens and earth in view; so why would they do it to the old heaven and earth? Why would the Lord when He comes in all His final glory introduce a replacement earth that is little (or no) different than that which He just burnt up? This simply doesn’t make sense.

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

 

[BABerean2]

We have discussed when 2 Thess 1:7-10 before. I remain convinced that prophecy refers to the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, years before the Return.
It simply does not fit with any of the prophesies about the Return.

What does the text say?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Rev_18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!


.

 

[keras]

It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

The Millennium will be a great time of peace and prosperity for all the mortal humans, a prelude to Eternity. But only King Jesus will be immortal.
All the dead and the living; when the Millennium ends, will stand before God and only those whose names are found in the Book of Life will be made immortal and will go with God into Eternity.
All of your scriptures prophecy for that time.

 

[keras]

What does the text say?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev_18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! .

2 Thess 1 and Rev 18, refer to different events.
2 Thess is worldwide and Rev 18 is localized.

No wonder you have strange beliefs when you rely on a translation that uses words like 'lived deliciously'.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Millennium will be a great time of peace and prosperity for all the mortal humans, a prelude to Eternity. But only King Jesus will be immortal.
All the dead and the living; when the Millennium ends, will stand before God and only those whose names are found in the Book of Life will be made immortal and will go with God into Eternity.
All of your scriptures prophecy for that time.

That is fanciful and totally unbiblical. You contradict so much Scripture with your invented theory and promote something that no one else I have ever heard or read advocates. Why? It doesn't add up.

• Many posters have given you multiple Scriptures that show all the wicked being destroyed when Jesus comes, yet you reject these texts.
• Many posters have given you multiple Scriptures that show all the elect being glorified when Jesus comes, yet you reject these texts.

Also, it is not a great time of peace and prosperity for all the mortal humans. Where does it say that in Rev 20? Nowhere! That is something you have conjured up yourself. Your millennium is overrun by billions of satanists at the end after Christ's supposed earthly reign in majesty and glory (and which you have failed to support with any passage in Rev 20). That is proof that this is not a biblical reality.

 

[keras]

Many posters have given you multiple Scriptures that show all the wicked being destroyed when Jesus comes, yet you reject these texts.

You and 'many posters' are wrong.
Jesus simply destroys the army of the 'beast' by the Sword of His Word, at His Return. Revelation 19:17-21

Many posters have given you multiple Scriptures that show all the elect being glorified when Jesus comes, yet you reject these texts.

Wrong again.
ONLY the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', are resurrected by Jesus at His Return.

Also, it is not a great time of peace and prosperity for all the mortal humans.

Isaiah 65:18-25 describes the wonderful Millennium period.

Your millennium is overrun by billions of satanists at the end after Christ's supposed earthly reign in majesty and glory (and which you have failed to support with any passage in Rev 20).

Yes, there will be a rebellion at the end of the Millennium. They will all be cremated by God. Revelation 20:9b

Scriptural support? Your beliefs sure don't have any.