20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

Since 17 of them are just personal opinion, is there a reason that denying opinion is important?

Fleeting justification is what?

The Second Coming happens prior to a resurrection. A resurrection that amil refuse to place 1991 years ago. It happens after the Second Coming, and cannot be placed 1991 years ago. This resurrection happens prior to the Millennium, thus the millennium cannot start, until this resurrection happens. That is what Revelation 20:4 declares. No one can change God's Word. It does not matter if some change the length of a millennium to suit their opinion. A millennium will always be 1000 years.

The "first resurrection" already occurred 2000 years. We have been in Revelation 20 for a long time.

The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.

The general resurrection occurs on the last day at the end of the age. There both the wicked and the righteous are raised and judged at the GWT

 

[Timtofly]

The "first resurrection" already occurred 2000 years. We have been in Revelation 20 for a long time.

The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.

The general resurrection occurs on the last day at the end of the age. There both the wicked and the righteous are raised and judged at the GWT

Where are all the people living on earth that have not died in incorruptible bodies?

It is not symbolic in thought. It is symbolic of literal reality. The point being humans populating the earth free of sin. This is not a symbolic resurrection. It is a literal physical resurrection.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Where are all the people living on earth that have not died in incorruptible bodies?

It is not symbolic in thought. It is symbolic of literal reality. The point being humans populating the earth free of sin. This is not a symbolic resurrection. It is a literal physical resurrection.

I do not know why you allege Christ's resurrection is a "symbolic resurrection." Amils take this as a literal physical reality 2000 years ago.

Where in Revelation 20 does it mention "incorruptible bodies"?

 

[Timtofly]

I do not know why you allege Christ's resurrection is a "symbolic resurrection." Amils take this as a literal physical reality 2000 years ago.

Where in Revelation 20 does it mention "incorruptible bodies"?

The First Resurrection is a physical resurrection. Those resurrected were given incorruptible bodies that cannot be touched by the second death. Where are all these billions of incorruptible bodies physically on earth at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Jesus was resurrected on earth. Or do you deny that as well? They populate the earth. That is the reason they were resurrected.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The First Resurrection is a physical resurrection. Those resurrected were given incorruptible bodies that cannot be touched by the second death. Where are all these billions of incorruptible bodies physically on earth at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Jesus was resurrected on earth. Or do you deny that as well? They populate the earth. That is the reason they were resurrected.

You make sweeping claims without any Scripture. The reality is: we don't get our glorified bodies till the climactic return of Christ.

You have skipped around the following evidence several times. You have to. I will therefore repeat.

The elect are changed at the second coming/last trumpet into glorified existence. Multiple Scripture supports that. Your fight is clearly with God's Word.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Interestingly, this Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect here.

Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man’s access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom.

This changeover from “this present evil age” blighted with “the bondage of corruption” to the bliss and splendor of “incorruption” and “the glory which shall be revealed in us” doesn’t happen until the return of Christ. The transition from this temporal evil age to the new perfect eternal age happens at Christ’s return. Scripture show this glorious climatic event will see the glorification of God’s people and the glorification of this earth. The means by which God removes corruption from this earth at the end is by fire. People need to be glorified in order to equip them to populate the new perfected environment.

Mortality cannot possess it. The wicked cannot possess it. Premil has billions of both polluting the new earth.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Jesus said in Luke 21:26-28, 36: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall (or mello or hereafter) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Luke 21 shows us what occurs at the climactic future coming of Christ. Not only will creation be glorified, the righteous will also experience the same. This is the moment when man and creation is simultaneously perfected. This is shown to be the realization of the final aspect of redemption. Various clear and repeated Scripture prove when the day of redemption is.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

That day is the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is here described as “that Holy Spirit of promise.” The word “earnest” here relates to a security down payment. It is taken from the Greek word arrhabon, which is from a Hebrew origin [meaning a pledge in advance as security for the rest. You have heard of earnest money. ‘It is a portion of something, given or done in advance as a promise of the remainder’. This seal is active until the time when Jesus comes and we shall be physically redeemed.

Colossians 3:4 tells us: “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7&10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven … When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe.”

We shall indeed be changed into the image of the glorified Christ upon His return. 1 Corinthians 15:49 confirms: “we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

Philippians 3:18-21 says, “we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

Peter also looked forward by faith to an age approaching as an age when he will be “a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed (or mello) hereafter)” (1 Peter 5:1). He too was talking about resurrection day, when Jesus comes.

John tells us in I John 3:1: “when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

These passages describe the final act of redemption that occurs when Jesus returns. God’s people will then no longer suffer from any spiritual lack or inability. This will be a day when every last evidence and remembrance of sin, rebellion and pride will be eliminated.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 records: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is an irrefutable description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be the termination of all insurrection. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”). This is the event when the elect are glorified in order to equip them to inherit the new perfect arrangement. This involves them being given new glorified bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption.

 

[Timtofly]

You make sweeping claims without any Scripture. The reality is: we don't get our glorified bodies till the climactic return of Christ.

The church gets the glorified robe of white, symbolic of our spirit wrapped around us like a robe at the 5th and 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. The incorruptible body was available at the Cross and given to Lazarus per the voice of Christ calling him out of his grave.

The incorruptible body is the first physical resurrection. The glorification is the joining of our soul and incorruptible body with the spirit. Paul explains that several times in connection to physical death and there is a distinction between the first physical and second spiritual aspects of being restored to the full image of God. It takes many verses, that you have already posted. There is not one single verse, although Jesus in John 3 explained it to Nicodemus in 1 chapter.

The first is always connected to the physical. First birth of water is physical. First death is physical of Adam's flesh. First Resurrection is physical into an incorruptible body.

Second birth is spiritual becoming a part of God's family. Spiritual death is the Second Death. It is the Lake of Fire. There is no second resurrection from the Lake of Fire.

Many conflate the Second Birth with the First Resurrection. They are not the same thing. Most claim incorruptible bodies cannot happen until the Second Coming. That is not true. There was a first resurrection of the OT church out of sheol/Abraham's bosom. It was physical to incorruptible bodies. Only an incorruptible body can enter Paradise. All souls are currently physically in Paradise with incorruptible bodies. Paul states that in 2 Corinthians 5. To be absent from the physical corruptible body is to be present with the Lord in a permanent physical incorruptible body. The soul has had a body since all souls left Abraham's bosom. Lazarus left Abraham's bosom, when Jesus called him out of the grave and was the first to do so. Moses never had a body that Satan had access to, as in physical death, dust to dust. Neither did Enoch/Elijah. Also the thief on the Cross went to Paradise that day. Those who came out of the graves when Jesus cried out, "It is finished" walked around a few days and ascended to Paradise with Jesus Christ.

But you all equate the first resurrection as being spiritual when it is physical and only deals with the physical. Incorruptible is physical. Immortality is the rejoining of the spirit making one divine, a son of God in the image of God, spiritual. Immortality is not the physical body. It is the manifesting of a bright light, spirit around the incorruptible physical shell that houses the eternal soul.

"If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

The soul has a permanent body now. It is not naked.

"it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life"

Our spirit the Second part of us that is spiritual is not dead in us. It is with God. God in exchange sends us His Spirit to seal us until the day of Redemption as credit until we can take possession of our symbolic "robe of white".

The second death is the spirit, soul, and body in the Lake of Fire. John never claims a resurrection for those headed for the Lake of Fire.

But you have to point out a first physical resurrection described in Revelation 20:4. It is not symbolic nor spiritual. It is a physical incorruptible body. There is no other type of first resurrection in Scripture. If you do not accept Paul's description, what else is there? The OT saints were not beheaded during an upcoming 42 month period where Satan is in charge of the vineyard. The church is not being resurrected in the Revelation 20:4 resurrection period, OT nor NT, not past, present, nor future. It is physical and not the glorification part. These people physically populate the earth, for 1000 years, and also in the NHNE. We are not told if they are ever glorified. All we have is they cannot be cast into the Lake of Fire. They physically died in Adam's flesh. They were raised, judged, and given physical life to live on earth. No one needs to make babies in Paradise. On earth is the place where babies are born and raised.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The church gets the glorified robe of white, symbolic of our spirit wrapped around us like a robe at the 5th and 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. The incorruptible body was available at the Cross and given to Lazarus per the voice of Christ calling him out of his grave.

The incorruptible body is the first physical resurrection. The glorification is the joining of our soul and incorruptible body with the spirit. Paul explains that several times in connection to physical death and there is a distinction between the first physical and second spiritual aspects of being restored to the full image of God. It takes many verses, that you have already posted. There is not one single verse, although Jesus in John 3 explained it to Nicodemus in 1 chapter.

The first is always connected to the physical. First birth of water is physical. First death is physical of Adam's flesh. First Resurrection is physical into an incorruptible body.

Second birth is spiritual becoming a part of God's family. Spiritual death is the Second Death. It is the Lake of Fire. There is no second resurrection from the Lake of Fire.

Many conflate the Second Birth with the First Resurrection. They are not the same thing. Most claim incorruptible bodies cannot happen until the Second Coming. That is not true. There was a first resurrection of the OT church out of sheol/Abraham's bosom. It was physical to incorruptible bodies. Only an incorruptible body can enter Paradise. All souls are currently physically in Paradise with incorruptible bodies. Paul states that in 2 Corinthians 5. To be absent from the physical corruptible body is to be present with the Lord in a permanent physical incorruptible body. The soul has had a body since all souls left Abraham's bosom. Lazarus left Abraham's bosom, when Jesus called him out of the grave and was the first to do so. Moses never had a body that Satan had access to, as in physical death, dust to dust. Neither did Enoch/Elijah. Also the thief on the Cross went to Paradise that day. Those who came out of the graves when Jesus cried out, "It is finished" walked around a few days and ascended to Paradise with Jesus Christ.

But you all equate the first resurrection as being spiritual when it is physical and only deals with the physical. Incorruptible is physical. Immortality is the rejoining of the spirit making one divine, a son of God in the image of God, spiritual. Immortality is not the physical body. It is the manifesting of a bright light, spirit around the incorruptible physical shell that houses the eternal soul.

"If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

The soul has a permanent body now. It is not naked.

"it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life"

Our spirit the Second part of us that is spiritual is not dead in us. It is with God. God in exchange sends us His Spirit to seal us until the day of Redemption as credit until we can take possession of our symbolic "robe of white".

The second death is the spirit, soul, and body in the Lake of Fire. John never claims a resurrection for those headed for the Lake of Fire.

But you have to point out a first physical resurrection described in Revelation 20:4. It is not symbolic nor spiritual. It is a physical incorruptible body. There is no other type of first resurrection in Scripture. If you do not accept Paul's description, what else is there? The OT saints were not beheaded during an upcoming 42 month period where Satan is in charge of the vineyard. The church is not being resurrected in the Revelation 20:4 resurrection period, OT nor NT, not past, present, nor future. It is physical and not the glorification part. These people physically populate the earth, for 1000 years, and also in the NHNE. We are not told if they are ever glorified. All we have is they cannot be cast into the Lake of Fire. They physically died in Adam's flesh. They were raised, judged, and given physical life to live on earth. No one needs to make babies in Paradise. On earth is the place where babies are born and raised.

As is your pattern, you totally ignore every point I make and go off in a rabbit chase devoid of any Scripture. What you teach is all personal theories.

You fail to show any evidence for your beliefs in Revelation 20. That is because it exposes Premil and reinforces Amil.

The second coming is the end. Your 8-day theory has been fully and wholly refuted.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As is your pattern, you totally ignore every point I make and go off in a rabbit chase devoid of any Scripture. What you teach is all personal theories.

You fail to show any evidence for your beliefs in Revelation 20. That is because it exposes Premil and reinforces Amil.

The second coming is the end. Your 8-day theory has been fully and wholly refuted.

The next time he addresses one of our points specifically will be the first time.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The church gets the glorified robe of white, symbolic of our spirit wrapped around us like a robe at the 5th and 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. The incorruptible body was available at the Cross and given to Lazarus per the voice of Christ calling him out of his grave.

Can you tell me exactly how you interpret the following passage? Please don't try to change the topic or bring up other unrelated verses. I'd just like to know how exactly you interpret this passage:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What is your understanding of the last trumpet and when do you believe it sounded or will sound? Paul said we will all be changed at the last trumpet. What does that mean to you? It implies that we'll all be changed at the same time, does it not?

 

[Timtofly]

Can you tell me exactly how you interpret the following passage? Please don't try to change the topic or bring up other unrelated verses. I'd just like to know how exactly you interpret this passage:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What is your understanding of the last trumpet and when do you believe it sounded or will sound? Paul said we will all be changed at the last trumpet. What does that mean to you? It implies that we'll all be changed at the same time, does it not?

The Second Coming brings Jesus Christ to earth with angels and a Trumpet.

The church meets in the air during this process. The church is presented to God glorified and remains with the Lord Adonai God. The church remains in Paradise.

During the Trumpets and Thunders Christ is gathering souls for the Millennium reign on earth.

Humans on earth are dead. Humans in Paradise are alive. Humans on earth have not been changed by the first resurrection. Humans in Paradise cannot enter Paradise unless they have a first resurrection. Those in sheol are physically dead and will stay that way, until they are spiritually dead in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus Christ at the Second Coming will have angels remove souls from bodies as the final harvest. Souls will go to the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4 or sheol. The Second Coming is not a judgment for those in sheol. It is the judgement of living souls after the church is removed from the vineyard. The church is not the harvest. The church has been the Steward doing the harvest for the last 1991 years. The act of accepting the Atonement changes a soul from one harvested to one sowing and reaping.

Even as an ambassador one is still in a dead corruptible body. One is not alive physically in Christ. Those in Paradise are no longer dead, they are physically alive in permanent incorruptible bodies. If they were not, they would not be allowed in Paradise, but sent to sheol. No last day resurrection period at the Second Coming. All will be glorified and presented to God as Paul claims. The only ones who are caught up, arise, are the dead in corruptible bodies. Being physically alive is not the point. One is still dead and has to be changed. Those in Paradise are not dead. They are already changed. We are not all dead, but we all are changed. Being alive in Christ is that change. You all cannot base your doctrine on one single set of verses. You are limiting yourselves and creating unnecessary contradictions.

When you say "Scriptures that do not apply", you mean "taken out of context". The point about Lazarus; is people taking Scripture out of Context that really do not apply to the point. Then you claim I do it all the time. Recap is taking Scripture out of context and applying it where it does not belong. Revelation 20:4 cannot apply to the first century. All the parables that Jesus gives about the Second Coming cannot apply to the first century, nor the church. You have to leave Scripture in context instead of word matching and declaring context does not matter. Word matching may create interesting points, and many theologies and doctrines. It is hardly Truth or fact when removing all context. One can make the Bible say anything when context is removed.

The context of

"For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed."

The dead will be caught up and all will be glorified. The Resurrection is about living in Christ NOW. Not on earth, but in Paradise.

The only people who are dead in corruptible bodies are those walking around on earth. The corruptible flesh of those souls in sheol returned to dust. No human is walking around today on earth in an incorruptible body. We are all dead. At the Second Coming not all the dead will be changed, or caught up. Just the church. Those in Paradise will be changed spiritually, that is wrapped in a robe of white, our God given image of light, our spirit surrounding our incorruptible body. The dead (the church on earth) will be given an incorruptible body, made alive, and all will be glorified.

Paul was pointing out the resurrection that many were claiming could not happen or did not happen. Christ was the firstfruits of such a resurrection. But it was then and still on going, when a soul, who is part of Christ moves from death to life. Leaves earth for Paradise. The church is already there in Paradise since the day of the Cross and the thief was the first NT soul to enter Paradise. That is the only Resurrection Paul is talking about. There is not a single verse in 1 Corinthians 15 that says the soul is still in the grave and has not been resurrected. The point is that all those dead are in corruptible bodies. Only those alive on earth fit the description of being dead in a corruptible body. Those in sheol are not dead in corruptible bodies. They have no body, as it returns to dust, when the soul leaves.

Do you have proof the whole church is still dead and in sheol? The context is proof that all in Christ are Resurrected with Christ. At the Second Coming the church in dead corruptible bodies will be raised, caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The church will be glorified and be in Paradise forever.

The passing of the heavens and earth include Paradise. This reality will change around those beings in heaven and Paradise the same as those beings on earth. There will be the GWT for those in the sea, under the earth (sheol), and Death. The point is that Paradise will change around the church into the New Jerusalem. Heaven will change around the angels and other beings as the NH. So will the earth change around those on the earth. BTW, it is not the Second Coming event. Paul never mentions this NHNE in his description of the Second Coming.

Jesus does not mention NHNE in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus does not mention the church at all. Using the OD as given by Jesus and applying it to Paul's teachings is going out of context. Jesus is talking about a coming physical kingdom at the Second Coming. Paul is talking about the condition of the church in Paradise. Paul does not declare Paradise, which has to be taken in context with other verses. The promise to the thief on the Cross is in context with the resurrection of the church. The church is the only group who enter Paradise. Jesus does not promise the thief immortality or glorification. He claims a physical presence with Adonai God. It was God making that promise. The physical aspect was bodies that did come out of their graves, not ghosts. Paul just clarified what a physical resurrection entails. That is an incorruptible physical body.

Revelation 20:4 is a first type physical resurrection. Paul says the first type resurrection is physical to an incorruptible body. That is not taking verses out of context. These souls literally were taken out of dead corruptible bodies and given life in incorruptible physical bodies. That is how the Atonement affected them. Not to glorification, but to incorruptible sin free bodies. That can happen, because that is the promise Jesus made incorporated into the Resurrection and the Life. The first resurrection (physical) is not the second birth (spiritual). Accepting the Atonement does not immediately change a person either physically or spiritually. It is a step of Faith waiting for the first resurrection and the second birth. The OT church had to wait for the Cross for the first resurrection. Now the church is waiting for the Second Coming for the second birth. The joining of the spirit with the incorruptible body. The second death is the destruction of the spirit/demon in the Lake of Fire along with the soul.

The difference between the church and the physical Kingdom on earth is the second birth. No mention of the second birth in Revelation 20. So the event in Revelation 20:4 in context only deals with the first resurrection and second death. No other context is given. This Revelation 20:4 cannot apply to the first century nor the church unless you take the verse out of context. So why am I accused of taking verses out of context, when major theology and doctrine including eschatology is based on taking verses out of context all the time? One does not even need Revelation 20 to prove the church is safe from the second death called the Lake of Fire. What is the point of inserting the church any where into Revelation 20 to form eschatology or theology? There is the one statement about thrones and judgment. Not enough information to build theology on, but speculation only. Nor would the church judge the church. That makes no sense whatsoever.

The first resurrection (physical) can only remain as being physical and into a physical incorruptible body as 1 Corinthians 15 describes, the one and only resurrection type mentioned in Scripture. There is no defined second resurrection (spiritual) for those in the Lake of Fire, the second death. No where is it mentioned the church, after glorification, can choose to die a second death (spiritual).

 

[BABerean2]

Paul never mentions this NHNE in his description of the Second Coming.

Peter did in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Second Coming brings Jesus Christ to earth with angels and a Trumpet.

The church meets in the air during this process. The church is presented to God glorified and remains with the Lord Adonai God. The church remains in Paradise.

During the Trumpets and Thunders Christ is gathering souls for the Millennium reign on earth.

Humans on earth are dead. Humans in Paradise are alive. Humans on earth have not been changed by the first resurrection. Humans in Paradise cannot enter Paradise unless they have a first resurrection. Those in sheol are physically dead and will stay that way, until they are spiritually dead in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus Christ at the Second Coming will have angels remove souls from bodies as the final harvest. Souls will go to the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4 or sheol. The Second Coming is not a judgment for those in sheol. It is the judgement of living souls after the church is removed from the vineyard. The church is not the harvest. The church has been the Steward doing the harvest for the last 1991 years. The act of accepting the Atonement changes a soul from one harvested to one sowing and reaping.

Even as an ambassador one is still in a dead corruptible body. One is not alive physically in Christ. Those in Paradise are no longer dead, they are physically alive in permanent incorruptible bodies. If they were not, they would not be allowed in Paradise, but sent to sheol. No last day resurrection period at the Second Coming. All will be glorified and presented to God as Paul claims. The only ones who are caught up, arise, are the dead in corruptible bodies. Being physically alive is not the point. One is still dead and has to be changed. Those in Paradise are not dead. They are already changed. We are not all dead, but we all are changed. Being alive in Christ is that change. You all cannot base your doctrine on one single set of verses. You are limiting yourselves and creating unnecessary contradictions.

When you say "Scriptures that do not apply", you mean "taken out of context". The point about Lazarus; is people taking Scripture out of Context that really do not apply to the point. Then you claim I do it all the time. Recap is taking Scripture out of context and applying it where it does not belong. Revelation 20:4 cannot apply to the first century. All the parables that Jesus gives about the Second Coming cannot apply to the first century, nor the church. You have to leave Scripture in context instead of word matching and declaring context does not matter. Word matching may create interesting points, and many theologies and doctrines. It is hardly Truth or fact when removing all context. One can make the Bible say anything when context is removed.

The context of

"For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed."

The dead will be caught up and all will be glorified. The Resurrection is about living in Christ NOW. Not on earth, but in Paradise.

The only people who are dead in corruptible bodies are those walking around on earth. The corruptible flesh of those souls in sheol returned to dust. No human is walking around today on earth in an incorruptible body. We are all dead. At the Second Coming not all the dead will be changed, or caught up. Just the church. Those in Paradise will be changed spiritually, that is wrapped in a robe of white, our God given image of light, our spirit surrounding our incorruptible body. The dead (the church on earth) will be given an incorruptible body, made alive, and all will be glorified.

Paul was pointing out the resurrection that many were claiming could not happen or did not happen. Christ was the firstfruits of such a resurrection. But it was then and still on going, when a soul, who is part of Christ moves from death to life. Leaves earth for Paradise. The church is already there in Paradise since the day of the Cross and the thief was the first NT soul to enter Paradise. That is the only Resurrection Paul is talking about. There is not a single verse in 1 Corinthians 15 that says the soul is still in the grave and has not been resurrected. The point is that all those dead are in corruptible bodies. Only those alive on earth fit the description of being dead in a corruptible body. Those in sheol are not dead in corruptible bodies. They have no body, as it returns to dust, when the soul leaves.

Do you have proof the whole church is still dead and in sheol? The context is proof that all in Christ are Resurrected with Christ. At the Second Coming the church in dead corruptible bodies will be raised, caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The church will be glorified and be in Paradise forever.

The passing of the heavens and earth include Paradise. This reality will change around those beings in heaven and Paradise the same as those beings on earth. There will be the GWT for those in the sea, under the earth (sheol), and Death. The point is that Paradise will change around the church into the New Jerusalem. Heaven will change around the angels and other beings as the NH. So will the earth change around those on the earth. BTW, it is not the Second Coming event. Paul never mentions this NHNE in his description of the Second Coming.

Jesus does not mention NHNE in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus does not mention the church at all. Using the OD as given by Jesus and applying it to Paul's teachings is going out of context. Jesus is talking about a coming physical kingdom at the Second Coming. Paul is talking about the condition of the church in Paradise. Paul does not declare Paradise, which has to be taken in context with other verses. The promise to the thief on the Cross is in context with the resurrection of the church. The church is the only group who enter Paradise. Jesus does not promise the thief immortality or glorification. He claims a physical presence with Adonai God. It was God making that promise. The physical aspect was bodies that did come out of their graves, not ghosts. Paul just clarified what a physical resurrection entails. That is an incorruptible physical body.

Revelation 20:4 is a first type physical resurrection. Paul says the first type resurrection is physical to an incorruptible body. That is not taking verses out of context. These souls literally were taken out of dead corruptible bodies and given life in incorruptible physical bodies. That is how the Atonement affected them. Not to glorification, but to incorruptible sin free bodies. That can happen, because that is the promise Jesus made incorporated into the Resurrection and the Life. The first resurrection (physical) is not the second birth (spiritual). Accepting the Atonement does not immediately change a person either physically or spiritually. It is a step of Faith waiting for the first resurrection and the second birth. The OT church had to wait for the Cross for the first resurrection. Now the church is waiting for the Second Coming for the second birth. The joining of the spirit with the incorruptible body. The second death is the destruction of the spirit/demon in the Lake of Fire along with the soul.

The difference between the church and the physical Kingdom on earth is the second birth. No mention of the second birth in Revelation 20. So the event in Revelation 20:4 in context only deals with the first resurrection and second death. No other context is given. This Revelation 20:4 cannot apply to the first century nor the church unless you take the verse out of context. So why am I accused of taking verses out of context, when major theology and doctrine including eschatology is based on taking verses out of context all the time? One does not even need Revelation 20 to prove the church is safe from the second death called the Lake of Fire. What is the point of inserting the church any where into Revelation 20 to form eschatology or theology? There is the one statement about thrones and judgment. Not enough information to build theology on, but speculation only. Nor would the church judge the church. That makes no sense whatsoever.

The first resurrection (physical) can only remain as being physical and into a physical incorruptible body as 1 Corinthians 15 describes, the one and only resurrection type mentioned in Scripture. There is no defined second resurrection (spiritual) for those in the Lake of Fire, the second death. No where is it mentioned the church, after glorification, can choose to die a second death (spiritual).

Understandably you present no Scripture. It is not based on the sacred text.

 

[Timtofly]

Understandably you present no Scripture. It is not based on the sacred text.

Can you tell me exactly how you interpret the following passage? Please don't try to change the topic or bring up other unrelated verses. I'd just like to know how exactly you interpret this passage:

I was told not to present unrelated verses. Sorry to not just post random verses to pick apart. 1 Corinthians 15 is Scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I was told not to present unrelated verses. Sorry to not just post random verses to pick apart. 1 Corinthians 15 is Scripture.

Please stop avoiding the scriptural arguments that challenge your beliefs.

I presented multiple Scriptures above that forbid your doctrine and yet you avoided every single one of them. So did SJ and Barean. That is telling!

 

[sovereigngrace]

I was told not to present unrelated verses. Sorry to not just post random verses to pick apart. 1 Corinthians 15 is Scripture.

Many can see by the lack of Premil support that there is no defense for Premil using basic biblical imperatives. It is a non-corroborative theory.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Second Coming brings Jesus Christ to earth with angels and a Trumpet.

The church meets in the air during this process. The church is presented to God glorified and remains with the Lord Adonai God. The church remains in Paradise.

During the Trumpets and Thunders Christ is gathering souls for the Millennium reign on earth.

Humans on earth are dead. Humans in Paradise are alive. Humans on earth have not been changed by the first resurrection. Humans in Paradise cannot enter Paradise unless they have a first resurrection. Those in sheol are physically dead and will stay that way, until they are spiritually dead in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus Christ at the Second Coming will have angels remove souls from bodies as the final harvest. Souls will go to the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4 or sheol. The Second Coming is not a judgment for those in sheol. It is the judgement of living souls after the church is removed from the vineyard. The church is not the harvest. The church has been the Steward doing the harvest for the last 1991 years. The act of accepting the Atonement changes a soul from one harvested to one sowing and reaping.

Even as an ambassador one is still in a dead corruptible body. One is not alive physically in Christ. Those in Paradise are no longer dead, they are physically alive in permanent incorruptible bodies. If they were not, they would not be allowed in Paradise, but sent to sheol. No last day resurrection period at the Second Coming. All will be glorified and presented to God as Paul claims. The only ones who are caught up, arise, are the dead in corruptible bodies. Being physically alive is not the point. One is still dead and has to be changed. Those in Paradise are not dead. They are already changed. We are not all dead, but we all are changed. Being alive in Christ is that change. You all cannot base your doctrine on one single set of verses. You are limiting yourselves and creating unnecessary contradictions.

When you say "Scriptures that do not apply", you mean "taken out of context". The point about Lazarus; is people taking Scripture out of Context that really do not apply to the point. Then you claim I do it all the time. Recap is taking Scripture out of context and applying it where it does not belong. Revelation 20:4 cannot apply to the first century. All the parables that Jesus gives about the Second Coming cannot apply to the first century, nor the church. You have to leave Scripture in context instead of word matching and declaring context does not matter. Word matching may create interesting points, and many theologies and doctrines. It is hardly Truth or fact when removing all context. One can make the Bible say anything when context is removed.

The context of

"For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed."

The dead will be caught up and all will be glorified. The Resurrection is about living in Christ NOW. Not on earth, but in Paradise.

The only people who are dead in corruptible bodies are those walking around on earth. The corruptible flesh of those souls in sheol returned to dust. No human is walking around today on earth in an incorruptible body. We are all dead. At the Second Coming not all the dead will be changed, or caught up. Just the church. Those in Paradise will be changed spiritually, that is wrapped in a robe of white, our God given image of light, our spirit surrounding our incorruptible body. The dead (the church on earth) will be given an incorruptible body, made alive, and all will be glorified.

Paul was pointing out the resurrection that many were claiming could not happen or did not happen. Christ was the firstfruits of such a resurrection. But it was then and still on going, when a soul, who is part of Christ moves from death to life. Leaves earth for Paradise. The church is already there in Paradise since the day of the Cross and the thief was the first NT soul to enter Paradise. That is the only Resurrection Paul is talking about. There is not a single verse in 1 Corinthians 15 that says the soul is still in the grave and has not been resurrected. The point is that all those dead are in corruptible bodies. Only those alive on earth fit the description of being dead in a corruptible body. Those in sheol are not dead in corruptible bodies. They have no body, as it returns to dust, when the soul leaves.

Do you have proof the whole church is still dead and in sheol? The context is proof that all in Christ are Resurrected with Christ. At the Second Coming the church in dead corruptible bodies will be raised, caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The church will be glorified and be in Paradise forever.

The passing of the heavens and earth include Paradise. This reality will change around those beings in heaven and Paradise the same as those beings on earth. There will be the GWT for those in the sea, under the earth (sheol), and Death. The point is that Paradise will change around the church into the New Jerusalem. Heaven will change around the angels and other beings as the NH. So will the earth change around those on the earth. BTW, it is not the Second Coming event. Paul never mentions this NHNE in his description of the Second Coming.

Jesus does not mention NHNE in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus does not mention the church at all. Using the OD as given by Jesus and applying it to Paul's teachings is going out of context. Jesus is talking about a coming physical kingdom at the Second Coming. Paul is talking about the condition of the church in Paradise. Paul does not declare Paradise, which has to be taken in context with other verses. The promise to the thief on the Cross is in context with the resurrection of the church. The church is the only group who enter Paradise. Jesus does not promise the thief immortality or glorification. He claims a physical presence with Adonai God. It was God making that promise. The physical aspect was bodies that did come out of their graves, not ghosts. Paul just clarified what a physical resurrection entails. That is an incorruptible physical body.

Revelation 20:4 is a first type physical resurrection. Paul says the first type resurrection is physical to an incorruptible body. That is not taking verses out of context. These souls literally were taken out of dead corruptible bodies and given life in incorruptible physical bodies. That is how the Atonement affected them. Not to glorification, but to incorruptible sin free bodies. That can happen, because that is the promise Jesus made incorporated into the Resurrection and the Life. The first resurrection (physical) is not the second birth (spiritual). Accepting the Atonement does not immediately change a person either physically or spiritually. It is a step of Faith waiting for the first resurrection and the second birth. The OT church had to wait for the Cross for the first resurrection. Now the church is waiting for the Second Coming for the second birth. The joining of the spirit with the incorruptible body. The second death is the destruction of the spirit/demon in the Lake of Fire along with the soul.

The difference between the church and the physical Kingdom on earth is the second birth. No mention of the second birth in Revelation 20. So the event in Revelation 20:4 in context only deals with the first resurrection and second death. No other context is given. This Revelation 20:4 cannot apply to the first century nor the church unless you take the verse out of context. So why am I accused of taking verses out of context, when major theology and doctrine including eschatology is based on taking verses out of context all the time? One does not even need Revelation 20 to prove the church is safe from the second death called the Lake of Fire. What is the point of inserting the church any where into Revelation 20 to form eschatology or theology? There is the one statement about thrones and judgment. Not enough information to build theology on, but speculation only. Nor would the church judge the church. That makes no sense whatsoever.

The first resurrection (physical) can only remain as being physical and into a physical incorruptible body as 1 Corinthians 15 describes, the one and only resurrection type mentioned in Scripture. There is no defined second resurrection (spiritual) for those in the Lake of Fire, the second death. No where is it mentioned the church, after glorification, can choose to die a second death (spiritual).

You used a lot of words to say nothing. I guarantee that no one on this entire forum can comprehend what you're trying to say here. If your doctrine was true you would be able to explain it clearly, but you can't.

Your doctrine simply contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and many other scripture passages. Paul did not teach the convoluted doctrine that you believe in. It's actually very simple. No one besides Jesus will be changed and have an incorruptible and immortal body until the last trumpet sounds at His second coming. That's what Paul taught.

 

[keras]

You used a lot of words to say nothing. I guarantee that no one on this entire forum can comprehend what you're trying to say here. If your doctrine was true you would be able to explain it clearly, but you can't.

Your doctrine simply contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and many other scripture passages. Paul did not teach the convoluted doctrine that you believe in. It's actually very simple. No one besides Jesus will be changed and have an incorruptible and immortal body until the last trumpet sounds at His second coming. That's what Paul taught.

I agree that Timtofly has a very convoluted theology. Scripture does not support his ideas.

Paul teaches that immortality comes to those worthy, AFTER the Millennium; at the GWT, when the Book of Life is opened.
When the actual 'Last Trumpet' is sounded to assemble all the dead. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[sovereigngrace]

I agree that Timtofly has a very convoluted theology. Scripture does not support his ideas.

Paul teaches that immortality comes to those worthy, AFTER the Millennium; at the GWT, when the Book of Life is opened.
When the actual 'Last Trumpet' is sounded to assemble all the dead. Revelation 20:11-15

You are right and wrong. You are right that this all occurs at the last trumpet and that in turn corresponds with the GWT. But you are wrong in locating all this 1000 years+ after the second coming. It all occurs at Christ’s return. That is the end.

 

[Timtofly]

Please stop avoiding the scriptural arguments that challenge your beliefs.

I presented multiple Scriptures above that forbid your doctrine and yet you avoided every single one of them. So did SJ and Barean. That is telling!

And you avoided all the Scriptures I presented and only commented on my posting style.

 

[keras]

You are right and wrong. You are right that this all occurs at the last trumpet and that in turn corresponds with the GWT. But you are wrong in locating all this 1000 years+ after the second coming. It all occurs at Christ’s return. That is the end.

This belief contradicts much scripture.
There will be a Millennium when King Jesus will rule the world with His iron rod.
When Jesus Returns, He will gather His faithful people to Him, Matthew 24:30-31, and they will be His priests and co rulers. Revelation 5:10