2 Samuel 7:12-16 --- did god punish jesus for making mistakes ?

[bluemarkus]

allright i just read some passage again that i had not understood completely whenever i read it before. so in this passage the holy spirit speaks to david his promise that he would build him a great name and bless his posterity. david never fully understood this prophecy, he was thinking too small. he did not understand how farreaching the implications for the blessing and promise were.

now i understand the prophecy to be partly fulfilled through solomon, even tho he broke the covenant and the prophecy could not be fully fulfilled on him.
but mainly i understand this to be a foreshadowing of the messiah. so but here is my question,. it says "if he forsakes my law i will punish him with the rod of men and the chastisement of mortals". but traditional dogma holds that christ lived a sinfree life and didnt make ANY mistake. so what was messiah´s sin or shortcoming ?

ok i am posting this in the heretick /unorthodox section so please dont try to spam my thread with "jesus was sinless" replies. i know what the common understanding and dogma is. i want to figure out this passage and what it means. thx a lot.

ok waiting....

MB

 

[Jpark]

2 Samuel 7:14 is talking about Solomon.

 

[Evergreen48]

allright i just read some passage again that i had not understood completely whenever i read it before. so in this passage the holy spirit speaks to david his promise that he would build him a great name and bless his posterity. david never fully understood this prophecy, he was thinking too small. he did not understand how farreaching the implications for the blessing and promise were.

now i understand the prophecy to be partly fulfilled through solomon, even tho he broke the covenant and the prophecy could not be fully fulfilled on him.
but mainly i understand this to be a foreshadowing of the messiah. so but here is my question,. it says "if he forsakes my law i will punish him with the rod of men and the chastisement of mortals". but traditional dogma holds that christ lived a sinfree life and didnt make ANY mistake. so what was messiah´s sin or shortcoming ?

ok i am posting this in the heretick /unorthodox section so please dont try to spam my thread with "jesus was sinless" replies. i know what the common understanding and dogma is. i want to figure out this passage and what it means. thx a lot.

ok waiting....

MB

Isa. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.



2Cor. 5: 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[KM Richards]

did God punish Jesus for making mistakes

No...cause Jesus never made any mistakes!
That was an easy one...got any other goofy questions?

(sorry, any question suggesting God or Jesus made mistakes or committed sin is in fact a goofy question since God and Jesus are absolutely perfect...)

 

[Van]

Just to add a little to what has been said concerning 2 Samuel 7:14, or the passage 7:12-16, we have a double prophecy. In one aspect it will be fulfilled in a manner consistent with the audience of the time, but it also contains another aspect that will be fulfilled with the first or second coming of Christ. It is easy to see the short term fulfillment in Solomon, but not so easy to avoid the apparent indication that Christ would commit iniquity. And as attractive as it seems to say this part applies to Solomon and Christ, but that part only to Solomon, lets see if we might find a more excellent way.

Some translations render it, "if he commits iniquity" or "when he commits iniquity" therefore providing a better basis for saying this part only applies to the sinner, Solomon.

 

[Evergreen48]

Just to add a little to what has been said concerning 2 Samuel 7:14, or the passage 7:12-16, we have a double prophecy. In one aspect it will be fulfilled in a manner consistent with the audience of the time, but it also contains another aspect that will be fulfilled with the first or second coming of Christ. It is easy to see the short term fulfillment in Solomon, but not so easy to avoid the apparent indication that Christ would commit iniquity. And as attractive as it seems to say this part applies to Solomon and Christ, but that part only to Solomon, lets see if we might find a more excellent way.

Some translations render it, "if he commits iniquity" or "when he commits iniquity" therefore providing a better basis for saying this part only applies to the sinner, Solomon.

It says what it says, no matter how it is rendered.

Isa. 53:4. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5.But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."


God transposed the sins of His people over to Christ. Verse 14 prophesies of that transposition.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor. 5:21)

 

[bluemarkus]

thanks this is about what i expected. well i´m off to the surfing forum again.

 

[Nemo Neem]

It depends on how you look at it. That's what it comes down to.

 

[Mark51]

When Jehovah made a covenant for the kingdom with David, he said of the line of kings of David’s dynasty. (2 Samuel 7:14) Here the rod of discipline that Jehovah as a Father would use was the authority of the governments of the world, such as Babylon. This nation was used to overturn the kingdom of God in the hands of the kings of David’s line, until ‘he should come whose legal right it is.’ (Ezekiel 21:27) In 70[bless and do not curse]C.E., the Roman armies under General Titus were a “rod” to execute punishment on unfaithful Jerusalem.

 

[AlephBet]

All types of Christ in the Bible foreshadow the circumstance of the Messiah. Moses could not enter the promised land due to his sin. Absolom is another type, hanging from a tree, fleeing from his father and gets speared to death while hanging.

The key to this is knowing what you are missing. Yahweh is not God, but the Son of God. In Genesis 2, he planted a garden, formed man and made Satan by Genesis 3. Noting in this is the word bara (Create). Genesis 1 is Elohim (Father) and Ruach Elohim (Spirit / Feminine). Let US make Adam in OUR image and likeness. They then rest at the beginning of Genesis 2, allowing the Son to rule his own. He was known as Yahweh Elohim. By the fall of man, he was simply Yahweh by Genesis 4. From there, his rebellion against the Father was apparent. He was humbled as the High Priest (Yahweh from Zechariah 3) in the body of a Kinsman. Zechariah 3 shows you the future of Joshua / Yeshua. I think Yahweh had other plans. The Father changed them.

While History teaches mankind about themselves, Yahweh is taught the same lessons by his rule of us. In all cases, the types of Christ are foreshadowing of the true Father (Elohim) raising HIS Son. His Son raises us as children. We raise our own children lower down on the Hierarchy.

In all cases, the pattern of creation is repeated above and below. For all struggles you face in live, the mirror reveals the same above.

What was the plan of the Yahweh? Isaiah 24 tells you. He planned to make war in Heaven and rule from Earth. His plans were changed.

See my threads linked below for much more on this subject.

 

[RevelationTestament]

allright i just read some passage again that i had not understood completely whenever i read it before. so in this passage the holy spirit speaks to david his promise that he would build him a great name and bless his posterity. david never fully understood this prophecy, he was thinking too small. he did not understand how farreaching the implications for the blessing and promise were.

now i understand the prophecy to be partly fulfilled through solomon, even tho he broke the covenant and the prophecy could not be fully fulfilled on him.
but mainly i understand this to be a foreshadowing of the messiah. so but here is my question,. it says "if he forsakes my law i will punish him with the rod of men and the chastisement of mortals". but traditional dogma holds that christ lived a sinfree life and didnt make ANY mistake. so what was messiah´s sin or shortcoming ?

ok i am posting this in the heretick /unorthodox section so please dont try to spam my thread with "jesus was sinless" replies. i know what the common understanding and dogma is. i want to figure out this passage and what it means. thx a lot.

ok waiting....

MB

You left out this part of the verse:
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

now didn't Jesus hold the key of David?
It seems here that the key is being passed to David's son, Solomon.
Need I point out the Branch builds the temple?
Let's examine other scripture:
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[daq]

All types of Christ in the Bible foreshadow the circumstance of the Messiah. Moses could not enter the promised land due to his sin. Absolom is another type, hanging from a tree, fleeing from his father and gets speared to death while hanging.

The key to this is knowing what you are missing. Yahweh is not God, but the Son of God. In Genesis 2, he planted a garden, formed man and made Satan by Genesis 3. Noting in this is the word bara (Create). Genesis 1 is Elohim (Father) and Ruach Elohim (Spirit / Feminine). Let US make Adam in OUR image and likeness. They then rest at the beginning of Genesis 2, allowing the Son to rule his own. He was known as Yahweh Elohim. By the fall of man, he was simply Yahweh by Genesis 4. From there, his rebellion against the Father was apparent. He was humbled as the High Priest (Yahweh from Zechariah 3) in the body of a Kinsman. Zechariah 3 shows you the future of Joshua / Yeshua. I think Yahweh had other plans. The Father changed them.

While History teaches mankind about themselves, Yahweh is taught the same lessons by his rule of us. In all cases, the types of Christ are foreshadowing of the true Father (Elohim) raising HIS Son. His Son raises us as children. We raise our own children lower down on the Hierarchy.

In all cases, the pattern of creation is repeated above and below. For all struggles you face in live, the mirror reveals the same above.

What was the plan of the Yahweh? Isaiah 24 tells you. He planned to make war in Heaven and rule from Earth. His plans were changed.

See my threads linked below for much more on this subject.

Moses calls Him Father:

Deuteronomy 32:6 Restored Name KJV
32:6 Do ye thus requite YHWH, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Isaiah calls Him Father:

Isaiah 63:11-19 Restored Name KJV
63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his Set-apart Spirit within him?
63:12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
63:13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
63:14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of YHWH caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

Jeremiah states that He desires we call Him "my Father" and this has to do with the covenant which was broken even before Moshe came down from the mountain because of the golden calf incident. There is no more "marriage" covenant from the beginning because of this. The Prophet Jeremiah is explaining that one must now become a son. The so-called "marriage covenant" was broken before Moshe even cam down from the mountain the first time and finished off with the breaking of the first set of tablets with the Ten Words. This is exactly the template which Yeshua also follows knowing these things:

Jeremiah 3:1-5 Restored Name KJV
3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith YHWH
3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
3:5 Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.

In fact one cannot even be placed among His sons if the same will not repent and call Him Father:

Jeremiah 3:11-13 Restored Name KJV
3:11 And YHWH said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith YHWH; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith YHWH, and I will not keep anger for ever.
3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against YHWH thy Elohim, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith YHWH.

Jeremiah 3:17-19
3:17 At that time they shall call Yerushalaim the throne of YHWH; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of YHWH, to Yerushalaim: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
3:18 In those days the house of Yhudah shall walk with the house of Yisrael, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
3:19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the baniym-sons, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, "My father", and shalt not turn away from me.

Who then does Yeshua call his heavenly Father?
If you say it is not YHWH then you violate virtually all of TaNaK.

 

[Mark51]

When Jehovah made a covenant with David for a kingdom, He told David that the throne would be established in his line but that if his dynasty or any of his line of descent should do wrong, Jehovah would “reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam.” (2 Samuel 7:14; Psalms 89:32) this is a warning to the successor of David’s kingdom successor. This did take place when Jehovah allowed the kings of the Gentile nations to defeat the kings of Judah, particularly when Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, removed Zedekiah from the throne in Jerusalem.-Jeremiah 52:1-11.